Dodge previews the Charger Daytona SRT Concept, an EV that's clinging to the past

The person writing this article apparently has a myopic perspective of what consumers will need to really transition to fully electric cars. As of now there is no generation of drivers that is EV native so the expectations are tempered with ICE experiences and while there are surely some that will and have fully embraced the EV differences not all are ready to.

The marketing team along with the engineers have arrived, in my opinion, at the compromise needed to bring long term customers and waffling potential customers into their platform. Obviously there are many unknowns in regards to the transmission durability and the other systems that are needed to facilitate these features. EVs are new to this manufacturer, as they are to many traditional auto companies, so a question of quality is certainly viable.

The Features themselves need to have some options to be more attractive to buyers. The “exhaust” should have have a way to reduce the sound or turn it off. I personally like the sound but the novelty could wear off quickly. Overall though I think the concept will work.
 

yRaz

Posts: 4,819   +6,041
For an electric motor, this is never true: max torque lies near the very bottom of the rpm range, whereas peak efficiency occurs much higher (at a crossover point between the declining curve of electrical losses vs. the increasing one of mechanical losses)

IC engines tend to be most efficient around their peak torque -- but that's primarily because engine designers attempt to place the maximal efficiency patch within the normal RPM operating range. See for instance this Honda 1.5l engine:

1-s2.0-S2666691X20300063-gr6.jpg


Also bear in mind that the position of that optimal patch can and does shift dramatically based on ambient conditions (altitude, air temperature, humidity, etc.)
That's actually really interesting, I had no idea of my misconception of how electric motors handle efficiency and torque.
Exactly. And keep the fluid and filter up in an automatic, and it just might never break. I'm not saying they don't have a history, I'm just saying when you commented you have never seen a manual fail, it looks a bit over optimistic.

At the risk of wasting time with this again, I promise I won't mention that many repair shops are working on them as we speak. In fact. Pick your favorite sensor and call EV capable Walmart's. They can diagnose and fix them.

A Little Rock Walmart replaced one of my staff members battery sensors on her first Model S back in 2017. Advance auto sells hundreds of sensors and board units.

Do you mind if I ask where you got the info I highlighted?
Automatic transmission most certainly do break down because the clutch material wears inside it. This is why automatic transmission that have no been properly serviced often start failing after a fluid change. The friction surfaces were relying on the clutch material inside the fluid to delay the failure of the transmission.

And all I have to do is point to automotive companies like VW, Volvo and John Deer as evidence of software locking components to the vehicles main computer and refusing to use it. I personally have had this issue with Volvos when replacing the starter and window regulator modules. In one I had an AC fan controller fail and the AC compressor clutch wouldn't engage until we took it to a dealer ship to have the new module flashed. I'm happy you haven't had experience with this, companies like Honda, Toyota, Chevy and until recently Ford are very good about this, but it is a disease infecting the industry and it is only going to get worse.

I don't work on Chrysler products so I can't comment on them. This isn't my job but I often help out at my friends dealership when I'm not busy.
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,844   +3,114
TechSpot Elite
I personally have had this issue with Volvos when replacing the starter and window regulator modules. In one I had an AC fan controller fail and the AC compressor clutch wouldn't engage until we took it to a dealer ship to have the new module flashed.
Ok man, I get it, but you just confirmed that software lock outs are a problem for smokers too. And honestly, I can't say I'm aware of that type of lock on any EV. As far as John Deer, I'm aware of what they tried to pull. And those tractors are not electric.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 8,284   +7,658
but it is a disease infecting the industry and it is only going to get worse.
IMO, that's a pessimistic viewpoint and you may very well be right.

However, I think that any manufacturer implementing such in their vehicles will get immense negative feedback from doing so. I am willing to bet that with such feedback, they will realize that in order for them to succeed as an EV manufacturer, they will need to leave out such measures.

You can bet that with ICE vehicles, something like that was done to force buyers to bring the vehicles to their dealers for repair and thus ensure a revenue stream that only comes to them. I would not be surprised if you are not the only one who has noted this, and I am willing to bet that the fact that they did that has given them a very bad reputation.
 

yRaz

Posts: 4,819   +6,041
IMO, that's a pessimistic viewpoint and you may very well be right.

However, I think that any manufacturer implementing such in their vehicles will get immense negative feedback from doing so. I am willing to bet that with such feedback, they will realize that in order for them to succeed as an EV manufacturer, they will need to leave out such measures.

You can bet that with ICE vehicles, something like that was done to force buyers to bring the vehicles to their dealers for repair and thus ensure a revenue stream that only comes to them. I would not be surprised if you are not the only one who has noted this, and I am willing to bet that the fact that they did that has given them a very bad reputation.
If that were true then phone manufacturers would have opened up their systems a long time ago. Frankly, I remember modding an old iPhone or my Galaxy S4 was way easier than it is today. It's that right there that makes me think that negative feedback wont stop car manufactures from locking down their cars further. John Deere even went as far as trying to ban "made to fit" spark plugs for their tractors.
 

yRaz

Posts: 4,819   +6,041
Ok man, I get it, but you just confirmed that software lock outs are a problem for smokers too. And honestly, I can't say I'm aware of that type of lock on any EV. As far as John Deer, I'm aware of what they tried to pull. And those tractors are not electric.
just because the tractors aren't electric doesn't stop right to repair from being a problem. The electronics in cars are being locked to the computers and companies are citing copyright law as a reason for why they wont give people access to the tools that they need to fix it.

And please explain how smofeware lock outs are a problem for smokers, that sounds like a non-sequitur
 

scavengerspc

Posts: 2,844   +3,114
TechSpot Elite
And please explain how smofeware lock outs are a problem for smokers, that sounds like a non-sequitur
You did say in post #27:
"I personally have had this issue with Volvos when replacing the starter and window regulator modules. In one I had an AC fan controller fail and the AC compressor clutch wouldn't engage until we took it to a dealer ship to have the new module flashed."

Since EVs don't have a starter, I figure you were talking about a FFV.

Also, you did say in post #23 it was a problem for the EV, didn't you?
"and with the electronics in EVs today the computer systems lock you out from changing anything."

And I already pointed out how wrong that is in post #24, so I don't need to do it again.

just because the tractors aren't electric doesn't stop right to repair from being a problem. The electronics in cars are being locked to the computers and companies are citing copyright law as a reason for why they wont give people access to the tools that they need to fix it.
And like I said above, I am well aware of John Deer's dirty tricks.

So, as far as I know, there isn't a single problem with an EV that can't be diagnosed with the appropriate scanner. My Focus EV has a modified permanently installed 427201 OBDLink LX. Once a code is found, you can get the part from Ford or almost any parts store.

I almost forgot. Will you tell me why you thought diagnostics and repair on EVs is locked out? I'm just curious.
 
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yRaz

Posts: 4,819   +6,041
You did say in post #27:
"I personally have had this issue with Volvos when replacing the starter and window regulator modules. In one I had an AC fan controller fail and the AC compressor clutch wouldn't engage until we took it to a dealer ship to have the new module flashed."

Since EVs don't have a starter, I figure you were talking about a FFV.

Also, you did say in post #23 it was a problem for the EV, didn't you?
"and with the electronics in EVs today the computer systems lock you out from changing anything."

And I already pointed out how wrong that is in post #24, so I don't need to do it again.


And like I said above, I am well aware of John Deer's dirty tricks.

So, as far as I know, there isn't a single problem with an EV that can't be diagnosed with the appropriate scanner. My Focus EV has a modified permanently installed 427201 OBDLink LX. Once a code is found, you can get the part from Ford or almost any parts store.

I almost forgot. Will you tell me why you thought diagnostics and repair on EVs is locked out? I'm just curious.
Diagnostics are not an issue because of the federally mandated OBD2 standard for all cars sold in the US. I also never mentioned anything about diagnostics. If you want an example of something that's proprietary on an EV, all of the BMS systems I've worked with on EVs has been linked to the Cars main computer. I believe it was Toyota camery hybrid that was the exception, but that was a 2008.

But my point going back to a starter is that they are software locking parts that don't need software locked. I was helping my friend with an audi that would go into limp mode, turned out a tire pressure sensor was going bad. We replaced it ourself but had to have it towed to the dealership to have it flashed.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 8,284   +7,658
For an electric motor, this is never true: max torque lies near the very bottom of the rpm range, whereas peak efficiency occurs much higher (at a crossover point between the declining curve of electrical losses vs. the increasing one of mechanical losses)
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but that the max torque is near the bottom of the RPM range of electric motors is likely part of the reason that train engines use electric motors to drive the train. The motor is in turn powered by an electric generator driven by a diesel engine in a manner that allows the diesel engine to be run at its maximum efficiency.

That high torque at low RPM comes in handy when accelerating the large amount of mass in a train.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 8,284   +7,658
If that were true then phone manufacturers would have opened up their systems a long time ago. Frankly, I remember modding an old iPhone or my Galaxy S4 was way easier than it is today. It's that right there that makes me think that negative feedback wont stop car manufactures from locking down their cars further. John Deere even went as far as trying to ban "made to fit" spark plugs for their tractors.
Those "rules" by manufacturers have attracted a right-to-repair movement that has had recent successes.

Modding your phone, at least as I see it, is different from wanting to replace the battery because it won't hold a charge.

In this context, I don't think it relevant to equate a car to a phone.
 

yRaz

Posts: 4,819   +6,041
Those "rules" by manufacturers have attracted a right-to-repair movement that has had recent successes.

Modding your phone, at least as I see it, is different from wanting to replace the battery because it won't hold a charge.

In this context, I don't think it relevant to equate a car to a phone.
The reason I make that comparison is that car manufacturers are using the same excuse phone manufacturers are to justify locking down parts and adding computers to them.

And I'm going to diverge a little bit from the topic to bring something else up about why having these proprietary chips in modules that don't need them is a bad idea. Ford was having an issue sourcing chips for their power lock modules and they started selling the ford fusion without power locks. These modules don't need chips in them to function. Decades before this trend started things like window regulators and power lock modules worked fine. A Starter doesn't need a special computer to work, it just needs a few hundred amps from the battery. Why the change? What benefit does this give the consumer?

Selling these things as security features or hiding behind copyright law(or even BMW no longer allowing you to buy headed seats, you have to pay them a subscription) is a disease and it's only getting worse. And it's all about money.

It does not matter if it is a phone, a car or a toaster. When you pay for something you should own it. I do not need Apple "protecting me" by disabling the finger print scanner when I install a new screen. I don't need Audi to "protect" me by putting a car in limp mode because it thinks I have low air pressure (btw, it didn't). There is also no way to over ride these things or get into the systems without the factory tools that communicate with the vehicle. Which, I'd like to remind people, they do not provide.
 

Endymio

Posts: 1,838   +1,909
I'm going to diverge a little bit from the topic to bring something else up about why having these proprietary chips in modules that don't need them is a bad idea...Decades before this trend started things like window regulators and power lock modules worked fine. A Starter doesn't need a special computer to work... Why the change? What benefit does this give the consumer?
Criticism should be based on informed understanding, not an automatic outcry. Automakers are placing as many as 3,000 computer chips in a single vehicle -- not to "make it hard to repair", but to increase safety, performance, efficiency, and reliability.

In the case of an intelligent controller for a starter motor, it prevents the starter from engaging when the engine is already running, and automatically disengages the moment it starts. This reduces wear and tear on the starter motor, prevents damage through misuse, and allows features like single-press pushbutton starting. If you want ancient technology, buy a vehicle from the 1970s. There's plenty of them for sale.
 

yRaz

Posts: 4,819   +6,041
Criticism should be based on informed understanding, not an automatic outcry. Automakers are placing as many as 3,000 computer chips in a single vehicle -- not to "make it hard to repair", but to increase safety, performance, efficiency, and reliability.

In the case of an intelligent controller for a starter motor, it prevents the starter from engaging when the engine is already running, and automatically disengages the moment it starts. This reduces wear and tear on the starter motor, prevents damage through misuse, and allows features like single-press pushbutton starting. If you want ancient technology, buy a vehicle from the 1970s. There's plenty of them for sale.
Your whole argument is a non sequitur, my 2006 honda CRV has all those features and does not need computer chips. It's misconceptions like yours that have lead to this mess. As a car enthusiast I am frequently working on cars and encounter issues like this more often than I'd like. Frankly, I haven't seen this stuff until after 2010 and it's to the point where I don't even want to touch cars made after 2014-2015.

The starter is one of the most durable components on a vehicle, they're more likely to die from corrosion from old age than wear and tear. You'd drain your battery before causing damage to the starter. These things worked fine with solenoids and relays for decades, you don't need a microcontroller in every module in your vehicle. Car production slowing and skyrocketing prices due to the chip shortage is a perfect example of unforeseen consequences of doing so.

See comments like this is why manufacturers wont get enough backlash from customers to change their practices. They've actually tricked people into thinking they're doing them favor.
 

Endymio

Posts: 1,838   +1,909
Your whole argument is a non sequitur, my 2006 honda CRV has all those features and does not need computer chips.
Your 2006 CRV has pushbutton start? Odd, the photo I googled of the car's interior clearly shows a keyed ignition -- essentially unchanged from a 1970s era vehicle.

The starter is one of the most durable components on a vehicle

From CarTalk: Civic Forum:
One of the most common problems that can occur in the life of a vehicle is a bad starter, that includes the Honda Civic. It is important to determine whether or not it’s a bad starter that is keeping the vehicle from turning over...

From VehicleHistory.com
Multiple reviews on Vehicle History mention recurring issues with the ignition/starter on the 2006 Honda Civic. In one 2018 review, [the] owner reported that he or she had to replace the starter several times in the past three years...
 

yRaz

Posts: 4,819   +6,041
Your 2006 CRV has pushbutton start? Odd, the photo I googled of the car's interior clearly shows a keyed ignition -- essentially unchanged from a 1970s era vehicle.



From CarTalk: Civic Forum:
One of the most common problems that can occur in the life of a vehicle is a bad starter, that includes the Honda Civic. It is important to determine whether or not it’s a bad starter that is keeping the vehicle from turning over...

From VehicleHistory.com
Multiple reviews on Vehicle History mention recurring issues with the ignition/starter on the 2006 Honda Civic. In one 2018 review, [the] owner reported that he or she had to replace the starter several times in the past three years...
it does not have a push button start, when you turn the key into the start position it makes a connection to a relay that activates a solenoid that connects the battery to the starter. And as much as I LOVE car talk, much of their information is out dated. It was a great show to listen to Sunday mornings in the 90's but a lot of things have changed since Click and Clack.

I did take a step back and think about the starter issue because I have changed a lot of starts and alternators. 2 of the main things that go wrong with starters is that the brushes wear out on the motor, the use to sell rebuild kits for them but now they're just disposable. But from personal experience, I have noticed over the last several years I have primarily changed sensors and modules. I think that's where a lot of my rage comes from is because if it wasn't for the microcontroller they put in the module the module would be working fine. They're still mechanically fine, it's just them installing something that doesn't need to be there in the first place that causes all these problems. And in extreme examples, it forces you to take the car to the dealership.