Evading sanctions, Russia bought $1.7B worth of US and European chips last year

[Fogman]

The US has been pumping dollars into Ukraine and anti-Russian propaganda for years now, which precipitated the conflict, just like the US wanted all along. They invested into creation of anti-Russian regime right on its border, to cause maximum trouble, and they used Ukraine as a scapegoat. And now Ukraine is paying for sleeping with the enemy, or as the old saying goes - "Be afraid of the Greeks bearing gifts", which Ukraine ignored due to high level of corruption. They were happy to take US dollars and do their nasty biddings.

So, you say that if your girlfriend wants to leave you for a richer man, you have right to attack her and take her back with force?

What happened in this case is, that Ukraine was lured to west by promises of better life where there is not dictator Putin in helm. If you do not like this, lure them back, show them haw there is better life in Russia than in West, and Putin rules. Ukrainians where your brothers for God’s sake.
Instead, Putin annexed parts of Ukraine and with that turned most Ukrainians against and most of the World against him. This major political defeat. Like you said: “just like the US wanted all along”. Putin could not compete with the West and US with is brain, only by force and by killing in war hundreds of thousands Slavic people - Russians, and Ukrainians.

And being surrounded by NATO… Think a little. When Russia was weak after 1991 Soviet coup attempt nobody attacked Russia. When Baltic countries joined NATO, no big NATO military presence, no rockets etc were established there. When there was hope that Russia will become normal Europe country, military spendings on all EU NATO countries dropped. You can look up statistics.

But what now after Russian aggression? Almost all EU countries will increase their military spendings, Finland joined NATO, Sweden will be joining soon, Baltic countries demand bigger NATO presence in their countries. So, Putin archived that Russian young men are dying in Ukraine and security situation of Russia is much worse. And Russians still like this president?

If any USA president or EU prime minister “archived” this, they would not be elected back. Imagine if USA president would make so bad political decisions, that Canada wanted to join CSTO?

And for your information – corruption in Ukraine was/is bad, but so it is in Russia. I know, I have relatives there. Ukraine wanted to join Europe where corruption is lower, but Putin did not like that, and started a war…

PS! When someone is at helm of the country more than 20 years, he is a dictator. In normal country’s there are rules for that. In Russia Putin changed those rules.

 

[erickmendes]

Well, you know, Putin could have always just......NOT invaded, erm, conduction a "Special Military Operation", in another country. Funny how that works.

The same could be said about USA?

 

[Endymio]

So, you say that if your girlfriend wants to leave you for a richer man, you have right to attack her and take her back with force?

Are you talking about Donbass leaving Ukraine in 2010, or Ukraine leaving Russia on 1991? Interestingly enough, 1991 is the same year that Crimea *first* voted to separate from Ukraine. Ukraine gave it the finger, even as it was in the process of declaring its own independence.

And for your information – corruption in Ukraine was/is bad, but so it is in Russia.

True. The difference is that the Russian oligarchs got rich off Russian oil and gas. The Ukrainian oligarchs got rich off Western aid dollars.

When someone is at helm of the country more than 20 years, he is a dictator. In normal country’s [sic] there are rules for that. In Russia Putin changed those rules.

Normal countries don't ban their opposition political parties, ban all non state-run media, ban the nation's largest church for "disloyalty", arrest any male who attempts to flee the country, and imprison thousands for publicly voicing their opposition to the dictator's policies. Nations like Ukraine do, though.

 

[veLa]

Normal countries don't ban their opposition political parties, ban all non state-run media, ban the nation's largest church for "disloyalty", arrest any male who attempts to flee the country, and imprison thousands for publicly voicing their opposition to the dictator's policies. Nations like Ukraine do, though.

Alexei Navalny is literally in jail.

 

[Endymio]

Alexei Navalny is literally in jail.

You've convinced us. Russia is as bad as Ukraine. Kiev has arrest warrants on most of Ukraine's opposition political party ... most of them fled the country in time to avoid arrest.

BTW, one of those thousands who have been arrested in Ukraine for criticizing the regime was the journalist and US citizen Gonzalo Lira. He died in prison there last week: his family says he was tortured and denied any medical care for months.

 

[Fogman]

Are you talking about Donbass leaving Ukraine in 2010, or Ukraine leaving Russia on 1991? Interestingly enough, 1991 is the same year that Crimea *first* voted to separate from Ukraine. Ukraine gave it the finger, even as it was in the process of declaring its own independence.


True. The difference is that the Russian oligarchs got rich off Russian oil and gas. The Ukrainian oligarchs got rich off Western aid dollars.

Normal countries don't ban their opposition political parties, ban all non state-run media, ban the nation's largest church for "disloyalty", arrest any male who attempts to flee the country, and imprison thousands for publicly voicing their opposition to the dictator's policies. Nations like Ukraine do, though.

And

And “Donbass leaving” was direct result on Crimea occupation and Russian meddling. Never was there any moment fair voting could have been carried out. If there are gunmen at door no honest voting is possible.

You mean that Russian oligarchs got rich by stealing the oil and gas money, that should have been gone to make ordinary Russians life better? I do agree. Why and how is this better than Ukrainian variant? In Ukraine money came into country from rich countries and it was spent in Ukraine by Ukrainian oligarchs. In Russia oligarchs (with Putin’s approval) are stealing the Russian oil and gas money and spent it in EU counties and buy luxurious yachts.
And like I said – I agree both countries have problems with corruption. But there is evidence that Ukraine wants to get corruption under control. I don’t see any evident in Russia about that. And corruption is not reason to attack your neighbor. If it was, all Russian most Russian neighboring should attack Russia.
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022/index/est

And with normal country’s you are talking about Russia. Right? Please google: “Russia political freedom”. And no – this is not all propaganda. I have relatives in Russia.

And Ukraine banned some political parties after Russia started war (not that that it is entirely ok, but you must remember country is in brutal war against oppressor right now), not before it. Russia lost its political freedom long before Ukrainian war.

In retrospect most of Ukrainians wanted to join EU where the life of the average citizen is better, than in Russia, and Putin did not like this. Because what if average Russian will realise, that life without Putin and with European friends is better, than life in poverty, despite that your country is rich with oil and gas.

And Russia had no problem with Criema being part of Ukraine before Ukraine wanted to join EU. Google “Ukraine Russia treaty”.

 

[Endymio]

Never was there any moment fair voting could have been carried out. If there are gunmen at door no honest voting is possible.

Oops! There were no "gunmen at the door" when Crimea voted to leave Ukraine in 1991, and again in 1994 and 1996. After '96, Crimea gave up until the year 2014, when a coup installed a virulently ultranationalist party into power, a party that instantly began repressing its ethnic Russian minority; in their goal of "ethnic purity" for Ukraine, even going so far as to ban them from holding government office or positions, and bar them from speaking their own language. Crimea is 98% ethnic Russian; did you expect them to not react?

The ultranationalists of Ukraine hold as their national hero the infamous Nazi sympathizer Stepan Bandera, who carried out genocide pogroms against both Ukrainian Jews and Ukrainian ethnic Russian civilians. Ukraine's ex-President Petro Poroshenko -- the so-called 'Butcher of Donbass' was known for driving the streets of Kiev in vehicles with larger-than-life placards of Bandera on both sides.

Russia had no problem with Criema being part of Ukraine before Ukraine wanted to join EU. Google “Ukraine Russia treaty”.

Sure. The US had no problem with Grenada until a pro-Soviet government took power, and then we invaded. The US had no problem with Cuba until they decided to base Soviet missiles there; we threatened nuclear war to prevent it. And the US had no problem with Serbia keeping Kosovo, until they began repressing its ethnic minority population there, then we bombed them back to the Stone Age to force them to surrender it. When the ultranationalists in Ukraine seized power and began repressing ethnic Russians, as well as stating they intended to violate the Kharkiv Pact and place a NATO base at Sevastapol, what did you expect?

 

[Fogman]

Oops! There were no "gunmen at the door" when Crimea voted to leave Ukraine in 1991, and again in 1994 and 1996. After '96, Crimea gave up until the year 2014, when a coup installed a virulently ultranationalist party into power, a party that instantly began repressing its ethnic Russian minority; in their goal of "ethnic purity" for Ukraine, even going so far as to ban them from holding government office or positions, and bar them from speaking their own language. Crimea is 98% ethnic Russian; did you expect them to not react?

In the past, Russia gave Crimea to Ukraine and sealed the deal with the Russian–Ukrainian Friendship Treaty. Which country voluntarily gives up a part of itself? Russia? Do you remember the Chechen War? Let's say, if right now Chechnya or any other Russian region declares itself independent, and there is a vote, will Russia let them go? And if Russia does not allow it, for example, does China have the right to attack Russia and annex that part of Russia? Don't be naive.

I do agree that the Ukrainian Parliament rushed the new language policy, but this is not an excuse for invasion. You don't attack another country for its language policy. If Ukraine wants to be part of Europe, it has to correct its laws. On 8 December 2022, the Ukrainian parliament passed a bill aimed at addressing these issues. The bill was adopted to meet one of the European Commission’s criteria for opening negotiations on Ukraine's European Union membership."

Correct way of handling things is to take both problems to an international court or another appropriate forum. However, what did Russia do? It annexed Crimea in five days. The EU simply does not understand this.

I expect everyone to act civilized. There are many Swedish-speaking people in Finland. If Finland decides that in the Åland Islands, you cannot speak Swedish anymore, I expect Sweden not to resort to armed conflict but to take this matter to the EU court or another appropriate forum.

The ultranationalists of Ukraine hold as their national hero the infamous Nazi sympathizer Stepan Bandera, who carried out genocide pogroms against both Ukrainian Jews and Ukrainian ethnic Russian civilians. Ukraine's ex-President Petro Poroshenko -- the so-called 'Butcher of Donbass' was known for driving the streets of Kiev in vehicles with larger-than-life placards of Bandera on both sides.

Here are nationalists in every country. Please Google 'Russian Imperial Movement,' 'Igor Girkin,' 'Neo-Nazism in Russia,' and 'Nationalism Putin.' It's interesting to note that only Russia perceives Petro Poroshenko as an ultra-nationalist and fascist. Can it be propganda? There's no way this could happen in a country with so much press freedom? You can Google: "Russia and press freedeom".

The 'Butcher of Donbass' accusation. Ukraine did not unleash its full force against the rebels despite their waging war on Ukrainian own territory. Remember Chechnya? What did Russia do? Ukraine, if fully mobilized, has the capacity to withstand the entire Russian army as you can see.
The conflict in Donbass resulted in an estimated 3,400 civilian casualties on both sides of the frontline. Civilians Civilians 3,404 killed. Total 14,200–14,400 killed

Russian invasion: Civilians 10,191 killed. Total casualties depend on the data source, but estimates suggest at least 200,000 individual, primarily Russians and Ukrainians, have been killed. And this started with Russian invasion. So who is the butcher?

Sure. The US had no problem with Grenada until a pro-Soviet government took power, and then we invaded. The US had no problem with Cuba until they decided to base Soviet missiles there; we threatened nuclear war to prevent it. And the US had no problem with Serbia keeping Kosovo, until they began repressing its ethnic minority population there, then we bombed them back to the Stone Age to force them to surrender it. When the ultranationalists in Ukraine seized power and began repressing ethnic Russians, as well as stating they intended to violate the Kharkiv Pact and place a NATO base at Sevastapol, what did you expect?

Cuba was never attaced by USA. Grenada attack was very controversial and The United Nations General Assembly condemned it as "a flagrant violation of international law". This is not excuse for Russia to do the same. It's interesting that only Russia and a few dictatorship countries, where thre press freedom is low, think that the situation in Serbia and Ukraine was the same. Please Google: "UN General Assembly demands Russian Federation withdraw all military forces from the territory of Ukraine".

 

[Endymio]

You don't attack another country for its language policy.

But Poroshenko didn't simply ban ethnic Russians citizens in Ukraine from government positions and speaking their own language; he also relentlessly shelled civilian targets in Donbass, and allowed neo-Nazi groups like Azov to conduct terror attacks against ethnic Russian civilians without reprisal. When the UN, the EU, and even the US Congress sanctioned Azov, Poroshenko responded by officially integrating them into Ukraine's armed forces.

In any case, you misunderstand my point. Justification for the use of force is a continuous vector quantity, rather than binary. The US has invaded nations to keep unfriendly governments out of power. The US has invaded nations to stop them from repressing ethnic minorities. The US has invaded nations for funding terror groups. The US has invaded nations to prevent them from obtaining WMD. In Russia's case, it had all four reasons to invade Ukraine. That invasion may or may not be 'justified' ... but it's certainly more justified than similar US acts. I note that all my referenced US/NATO invasions were done so against the express will of the UN itself.

Russian invasion: Civilians 10,191 killed. So who is the butcher?

At least 5,000 civilians were killed in Ukraine's civil war before the Russian invasion -- and Zelensky had already announced his intent to abrogate the Minsk II Accords and increase attacks in Donbas. Also, the US killed between 500,000 and 1.2 **million** civilians in Iraq, looking for WMD that didn't exist. So who is the butcher?

 

[Darkmatter]

Why is Turkey in NATO, BTW? Or should I say, still in NATO.

Also, any country that is complicity in sneaking this stuff into Russia should no longer receive these goods.

Simple, straightforward, and yes, I'm sure, very politically painful.

 

[RaXelliX]

Sounds like Russia simply should've sat on its *** and done nothing, and everything would be fine and dandy for them.

Not done nothing. Cultivated friendly relationships with it's neighbors and showed it was not a threat. NATO would be disbanded by now. Instead thanks to Russia's own actions NATO is stronger than ever.

[/QUOTE]

You've convinced us. Russia is as bad as Ukraine. Kiev has arrest warrants on most of Ukraine's opposition political party ... most of them fled the country in time to avoid arrest.
BTW, one of those thousands who have been arrested in Ukraine for criticizing the regime was the journalist and US citizen Gonzalo Lira. He died in prison there last week: his family says he was tortured and denied any medical care for months.

You forgot to mention that most of those fled to Russia. They were never the opposition. They were Russian puppets.
Ironic that you worry so much about opposition in Ukraine and not in Russia itself.

Gonzalo Lira literally went to to Harkiv in the middle of the war and started posting Russian talking points. He was not taking a great moral stand or expressing his thoughts like anyone can do in a democracy. Maybe you should read what he said and wrote about Ukraine and Ukrainians before you declare him some kind of political prisoner.

relentlessly shelled civilian targets in Donbass, and allowed neo-Nazi groups like Azov to conduct terror attacks against ethnic Russian civilians without reprisal.

In Russia's case, it had all four reasons to invade Ukraine. That invasion may or may not be 'justified' ... but it's certainly more justified than similar US acts.I note that all my referenced US/NATO invasions were done so against the express will of the UN itself.

This has proved to be false. Ukraine did not shell Donbass (the city itself). And the few images that Russians presented showed shells that had arrived from their own direction. So unless Ukraine had developed some super secret shell or rocket that can fly trough Russian air defenses and then do a quick 180 to hit it's intended target then this whole thing reads more like a conspiracy theory. There has never been any proven link between Azov battalion and neo-nazi. Another Russian lie.
The less said about the UN the better. It's talking club that affects nothing and is against everything because Russia itself has a veto power there.

At least 5,000 civilians were killed in Ukraine's civil war before the Russian invasion -- and Zelensky had already announced his intent to abrogate the Minsk II Accords and increase attacks in Donbas. Also, the US killed between 500,000 and 1.2 **million** civilians in Iraq, looking for WMD that didn't exist. So who is the butcher?

Whataboutism. We are not talking about what someone did or did not do before. If a guy U goes and kills his ex this does mean it's justified for a second guy called R to go and do the same because U "did it first".

Minsk I and Minsk II were just temporary pauses so Russia could solidify the control of the territories it had captured and prepare to capture the next parts. Now they propose Minsk III to retain control over the territory they have annexed and to rebuild their army so they can attack again in the future.

 

[Endymio]

Gonzalo Lira literally went to to Harkiv in the middle of the war and started posting Russian talking points. Maybe you should read what he said and wrote about Ukraine and Ukrainians before you declare him some kind of political prisoner.

So you believe its ok for foreign regimes to imprison, torture, and execute journalists and US citizens for reporting facts, if those facts cast the regime in a bad light? Got it. Even if what Lira posted had been false -- which it wasnt -- these are still heinous human rights violations.

And no, I can't declare Lira a "political prisoner" because he's dead. He's far from the only victim.

This has proved to be false. Ukraine did not shell Donbass (the city itself).

Donbass is a region, containing dozens of cities. And I'm talking about the shelling *before* Russia invaded -- by Kiev, against, its own citizens. Here's what the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights said in their 2019 report. (the below taken directly from the UN website:

"...the vast majority of civilian casualties [were] caused by the indiscriminate shelling of residential areas, in violation of international humanitarian law ... ... The report also found that significant numbers of people, including civilians, have also been summarily executed or have died in custody.... The report documented killings within government forces, including at least 121 cases of “intentional homicide” of Ukrainian servicemen, some of whom were whistle-blowers who revealed the misconduct of Ukrainian forces in the conflict zone ... The Government of Ukraine has investigated and prosecuted [some] perpetrators of summary executions from its own ranks, although in some cases, investigations are slow or “protracted deliberately so that alleged perpetrators are provided with opportunities to escape justice,” .... "

While this report documents only some 2,000 civilian deaths, it is only for the two-year period up to 2016. When Zelensky gained power in 2019, civilian deaths in Donbass increased sharply.

There has never been any proven link between Azov battalion and neo-nazi. Another Russian lie.

When Facebook banned Azov from their site, they called them a far-right neo-Nazi group. Azov was sanctioned as a terror group by the EU, the UN, and the US Congress. The NYT itself noted their use of swastika-like symbols, their desire for "racial purity" in Ukraine, and the large number of white Supremist members they'd attracted to enlist throughout not just Ukraine, but all Europe.