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IT salaries in India and USA contrasted

By Nic ยท 133 replies
Aug 31, 2003
  1. consie89

    consie89 Banned Posts: 47

    Well we didnt screw it up as much as you seem to be. Look at the countries you have entered to far to liberate, look at the state of them. also are you saying that communisim is evil? how is communisim evil? the concept is good, its just people who have implimented it have been evil. Also a lot of countries are dictators or have been until the americans invade, most ofthe middle east are ruled under dictators. Our country also was ruled under a monachy which is a sort of dictatorship. Also the founding attributes of the American country were the defiition of a modern British life. You also seem to be moving away from the fundimentals of your founding laws, you are soon to be introducing laws were the actions of every person are montierd, either while sufing the net or in there own home alothough this wont be too soon it will happen to combat the war on terrorism. You also say that if the Saudi way of life was good why isnt the rest ofthe world imlimenting it, well a lot of countries do or did until you invaded them or bullied them. Many countries were also capitilsts before Americia was a proper country, u seem to think that you made it. Most types of controls, be it captilism, coomunisim, facisim or dictatorship are good ways of contol, but like most things its when its taken to the extremes it becomes unreasonable. You take capitilism to the extreme like the Russians took comunisim to its extremities. Your country's big busnisses also use countries who used to have comunsim or still have it, becasue you know it will save you money because they carnt strike for higher wages, which is one of the things your country boasts about, the average mans ability to make it to the top if he works hard enoguh what about the kid who work in sweat shops 18hours a day making nike sweat shirts, why isnt your country doing somthing about this? its becasue it doent bother you you arnt botherd what the world is like as long as it makes you money.
  2. Nic

    Nic TechSpot Paladin Topic Starter Posts: 1,549

    Saudi Arabia is a family run business, and those that live under that regime do not like it. They have no freedom and are poor (unless you are a member of the royal family), with no prospect of things improving. This is dictatorship by any description.
  3. consie89

    consie89 Banned Posts: 47

    i know at least 4 familys who live or have relitives in saudi arabia, all but 1 of which are working class, they like the way they live, and the family who can afford to holiday in the uk say laws should be tighter, its all state of mind, we think there barbaric and they think were soft epicures. Also can things really be that bad if they are ne of the strongest 7 ecomomys in the wolrld?
  4. Roderick

    Roderick TS Rookie Posts: 26

    The equilibrium, or lack of it, we're talking about here are the status created by the various forms of governments and their economic policies, if any. We're free to make any changes we want, but in the end, we're usually ended up with a local version of whatever. So now we have American style capitalism compared to Japanese style or to the EU's. In any case, it's still capitalism at its fundamentals, which is profits. Caterogizations are inevitable as well as helpful. They helped us in differentiating what may/will work for us but not for you or vice versa.
    This doesn't agree with your assertion that all things must come to an equilibrium. You're wanting to protect the current 1st world status of the UK at the expense of the 3rd world. Are you saying the migration to cheap labor is indicative of a decline or is the decline the result of said migration ? I suspect you believe the latter and if true, then how can it be a bad thing since you've already express a hatred for capitalism, an ideology that elevated your society to 1st world status in the 1st place ? If you now hate capitalism, then said migration and the eventual decline of the UK's 1st world status should be celebrated. Capitalism create inequalities of the monetary kind, individual to societal to national to global.
    To date, capitalism has proven to be the most sustainable ideology for mankind. It has existed under the most brutal forms of oppressions imposed by other socio/politico ideologies by hiding its transactions among and by the people. The State under communism, supposedly a more egalitarian society, rewarded those who pleases it with increased wealth and privileges. Poor people under communism barters among themselves for goods and services.
    The head of the US Patent Office in the 19th century once declared publicly to Congress that all things that ever needed to be invented has been invented and that Congress should dissolve the Patent Office. Capitalism by its nature will strive to profit from any avenues. By your statement you've put a limit on technology's future accomplishments. Are you seeing something we're not ? Capitalism doesn't create, it merely profits from what is created. When a society incorporate "hard" industries such as manufacturing into its economy along with "soft" ones such as agriculture, an inequality is automagically created between this society and its neighbors. This society's wealth and net worth increases exponentially as it progresses with innovations in all areas. Eventually it, in the eyes of others, became 1st world status. Creations and profits (capitalism) enjoys a symbiotic relationship in this advanced society. One will propel the other at certain times. The only way to achieve equilibrium is supposedly thru communism, and we all know what happened to that ship.
    This situation isn't the same in what ways ? The product now is softwares and support. We have to create better softwares and support better than India.
    That's contradictory. If Japan's exports is crap, then no matter how much protectionistic they are, their economy won't survive if no one buys their crap. Their efficiencies and the resulting productivities are the results capitalism demands. Their consumers are just like everyone else anywhere, once words got out that what they produced aren't marketable, then the prices of imports will rise. The government can impose higher tariffs until their market implodes under domestic demands for outside goods.
    Japan didn't create those fine automobiles, PCs, hi-fi stereos, and assorted household appliances from nothing. It has no natural resources of iron. It has to import steel. In other words, Japan adapted to the demands of capitalism instead of trying to fight it.
  5. BrownPaper

    BrownPaper TS Rookie Posts: 407

    i am pretty sure that is what the rest of world would do if they could. making ends meet for their family is the most important thing for most people.

    if you believe it is all economically splendid in the US, then you are mistaken. there are a lot of blue collar workers who are out of jobs and unemployed who are at the poverty line. check out the unemployment statistics and various info on the state ohio. from statistics, you would think ohio was a third-world country. even highly skilled white collar professionals are out of jobs and cannot get any jobs because they are overqualified. there were crooked companies like enron and worldcom who destroyed their workers retirement investment (even $45,000 USD). more and more middle-class families are becoming poor families.

    the united states is not exactly living in the lap of lavish luxury and stealing wealth from other countries for their own greed. it seems to me you are against the Bush administration (a lot of people from the US will agree with you and otherwise). remember that not all americans are complete morons who listen to anything the government says. because Bush cannot say "nuclear" correctly does not mean that other americans cannot. there are many voices in the US that are not heard by the rest of the world. do not generalize the whole by the few.
  6. Roderick

    Roderick TS Rookie Posts: 26

    What ??? That was major screw up of the 1st order !!! That's like putting a rabid dog, a cat, and a mongoose into a cage and left the resulting mess for everyone else to clean up. Saddam Hussein exploited these ethnic and religious hatred to his and his own clan's advantage into power.

    And yes, let's take a look at how many countries have we "liberated" and their status, shall we ? S Korea and Japan are regional and global economic powerhouses. Puerto Rico voted themselves to remain a US protectorate. VN is seeking diplomatic and economic relations with the US now that communism has failed and sunk. Overall, our record is really no worse off than any other colonial powers in history. Would you care to explain to us the positive and negative actions of your own East India Trading Company ?

    Nowhere did I said or even implied that the US invented capitalism. Didn't I give ancient China's Silk Road as example of capitalism's history ? So what if we're taking capitalism to the extreme ? If the religious extremes of Saudi Arabia is acceptable to you, then why aren't the capitalism extreme practiced by US equally tolerated ? Tolerance for one but not the other in the interests of pop anti-American criticism is what you're doing here.

    So far you've done nothing more than hyperboles and sloppy history whereas I've provided reasoned arguments with names that you can checked for yourself. There's no need for me to continue this line of "debate" until I read something more cogent from you.

  7. Nic

    Nic TechSpot Paladin Topic Starter Posts: 1,549


    Categorizations are only fine if they are accurate. You can't try and fit something into a category just because some things are the same, as then you have already prejudged it and forced it down that path. Remember that we humans will simply look at the categorization and assume that all the things that are bad/good for that catagory will still apply, thereby dismissing something simply because of assumptions that are inaccurate. Your quote already acknowledges this.

    I don't hate capitalism, only the extent to which it is applied. There has to be a limit, and controls need to ensure that it doesn't run out of control. Capitalism rewards success, and that part is good. Also, equilibrium is not the same as equality. I don't believe in communism (equality), just managed capitalism (equilibrium). I fully support free trade, but I don't support jobs moving overseas when those jobs are directly in support of needs being fullfilled at home. By way of example, having goods manufactured overseas is fine, but having customer support services for *onshore* customers carried out *offshore* is not fine. Jobs should remain with the source that they are directly benefitting and not moved elsewhere.

    Capitalism has indeed been good up to now, but we are now finding it's limits.

    Once again, equilibrium is not the same as equality. Equality means that we are all equal, equilibrium means that we are managing a sustainable society, without boom and bust cycles, and where people still get rewarded for their efforts. Where do you see technology going? How can we compete with cheap labour overseas? What type of work will be left for us? We can't all be shelf-stackers, and we can't all be designers of state of the art software/electronics products. How do we generate wealth? Anyone?

    We can create better software and provide better support than India, but they can do it cheaper. In fact, they can do any job cheaper, so does that mean that all of us should simply become unemployed. What can we do that they cannot? Is there enough work left for everyone?

    I disagree. Japan only needs to export so that it can trade for resources that it doesn't itself have. There is no other reason why a nation cannot be self-sufficient (other than as mentioned) as in reality each nation is just a smaller scale version of a much larger trading group (the world). Do we need to trade with aliens (other planets) in order to survive?

    As mentioned, Japan trades it's goods for ours. This only becomes a problem when most of the trading is in one direction. Japan has amassed it's huge wealth by doing this while other nations plummet into debt. No equilibrium here.
  8. Nic

    Nic TechSpot Paladin Topic Starter Posts: 1,549


    This is turning into a very long thread :=).
  9. Nic

    Nic TechSpot Paladin Topic Starter Posts: 1,549

    I guess you're talking about British families working and living in Saudi Arabia, and not about the Saudi population. Foreign workers are generally isolated from the reality of life for real Saudi's that are not part of the royal family. These people are both opressed and poor.
  10. consie89

    consie89 Banned Posts: 47

    im here once more

    Helo all, had to fromat pc and encoutered some trouble, but im bak and here to plauge u all with my ignorance once more. The saudi families were actually born there believe it or not. The one midle class family i know of says life is great, the other working clas ones who my friends have visited seem to be content, and my friends said that their house was well devolped and furnished. Also i dont hate the average american, i have no problems with them, just the bush administration. I still think that Americas form of capitilism is extreme, and you dont really care about much in the rest of the world, you might say you police it but its for your own belives and gains. I think they have to have a look at how little actual care for the fellow human they embrace, like i said if you were seriouly injured the first question they ask you is do you have insurance. You might say the NHS is ruins but that was because of Thature, it will eventualy get bak to normal. The fact about just providing for the family by any means nessocary doent seem right for Americia by being the worlds only superpower you take on the role of policing the world fairly even bush says this. You dont, you seem to be like a form of cancer, eat up the wealth in one part of the world and move onto the next. You were the only guys not to vote to bring down your polution levels and you are the number one contributer to massive polution levels.
  11. krowdpeleeza

    krowdpeleeza TS Rookie Posts: 30

    Ha... Got you... I've heard that line before... Do you watch the matrix often? (hehe:p )

    As for the rest of what you wrote in your last argument, I'd have to say one word... NONSENSE!
    Pollution...hmph...of course we do have a pollution problem, but to say we are the worst....think again buddy!

    P.S. check my quote, I think it was solely written for you!;)
  12. krowdpeleeza

    krowdpeleeza TS Rookie Posts: 30

    To Nic & Rodderick,

    The amount of factual knowlege you posses of this subject, does not cease to inspire and amaze me.

    I would have to agree with Nic and his not so bright outlook of the IT community in an American point of view. Now I'm not sure how it is for the rest of the world, but American money making institutions are dead set on pushing the IT certification onto the extremely unexperienced.

    I've been in this business for quite sometime. My experience has ranged from building midrange computers for private corporations to network administrating Gateways Country stores. Now, I find myself competing with paper MCSE's and what have you, without a day of real world expirience. I'm not the least bit cold about this subject, as I know there are a lot of people out there that are putting the heart and soul into learning the subject, and well. But when a business takes a chance on a certain individual, gives him/her a good salary and a ton of resposibility, and this individual does not perform and the company ends up loosing thousands of dollars for network downtime, they begin to loose faith in the rest of the community. Thus outsourcing becomes a reality.

    To Phantasm,

    Your optimisim is enlightening! I myself have blind faith as well, and one day I hope to see this community founded upon geeks and enthusiasts thrive again!:)
  13. SNGX1275

    SNGX1275 TS Forces Special Posts: 10,729   +409

    Re: im here once more

    Seems like I have to post this quite often. Of course we release a lot of pollution, but we are also a country that has a lot of industry producing not only for ourselves but many other countries as well, and we are geographically much larger than most other countries. Here take a look at this little bit of research I did. I had all my sources referenced on the old board but since that went away I dont' have the sources anymore, I didn't have that saved anywhere.
  14. Rick

    Rick TechSpot Staff Posts: 4,572   +65

    consie89, is English your second language?

    <just a small sample>



    Typos are fine, but I have a hard time taking your seriously without a good excuse for this horrible mockery of written english.
  15. Phantasm66

    Phantasm66 TS Rookie Posts: 5,734   +7

    Don't worry, I understand :) .

    However, NEVER make the mistake of underestimating the power of the PURE NEED that ordinary mortals have to:

    * Press print and actually get the printout from the desired printer.

    * Log on and share files over a network without any hassle.

    * Surf the net.

    * Get a simple web site up and running.

    * Take pictures from a digital camera and transfer them to a PC.

    * See that the newest version of their fav software is EVEN EASIER TO USE THAN BEFORE!

    * ....need I go on?

    To suggest that, all of a sudden, you are not going to get a job working with computers any more unless you up and move to India is complete bunkum and claptrap.

    The whole world is SCREAMING OUT for more people who ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING ON A COMPUTER!

    Not these bumbling, substandard IT types who got into computers for the cash - the REAL PEOPLE, the COMPUTER GEEKS who built this cyber world and still own it.

    And this is not going to change for a long, long time.

    Not until we build a computer that is so easy to use its like Teletubbies for Retards.

    That day will come.

    And maybe even in our lifetimes.

    But not now.

    Not for a long, long time.

    All that's moved to India is cheap, nasty call center places who are going over there and going bust anyway, according to the information I saw this morning on BBC News 24.

    I think you are getting freaked out over nothing, and its time to concentrate more on learning new IT skills and in getting your next job. If there is any way I can help you in this, please let me know immediately.
  16. Phantasm66

    Phantasm66 TS Rookie Posts: 5,734   +7

    Not by virtue of whether you wear a suit to work or not.

    Not by virtue of who you think are you, or what car you drive.

    Not by virtue of where you live in the world - these things are becoming irrelevant in today's wired world in some respects.

    But by WHAT YOU KNOW. By what computing abilities you have accumulated. By the speed and depth of your learning, and your willingness to learn. Refuse to let these things die, and you will always find work wherever you are.
  17. ryan5394

    ryan5394 TS Rookie

    Re: im here once more

    Couldn't have said it better myself.
  18. Phantasm66

    Phantasm66 TS Rookie Posts: 5,734   +7

    In light of the previous post, it may come across as bullying, a little, when I say when I am about to:

    If you keep walking around talking like that, people will think you are a weirdo. I would cut that crap out right now, Mister.

    I heard someone recently say that he thought that "maybe the people who died in Sep 11 deserved it, in a sense."

    Thinking like that, or that the world needs a nuclear war, or something, is complete rubbish. If that is the sort of thing you are going around thinking, then I advise you from the bottom of my heart to please stop doing so. Take up a hobby, get more fresh air, or start to put more effort into your job / schoolwork. You will thank me for it one day.
  19. Phantasm66

    Phantasm66 TS Rookie Posts: 5,734   +7

    why is it that all commies go around saying that terrorist attacks were deserved and that the world needs a nice, good armageddon?
  20. Nic

    Nic TechSpot Paladin Topic Starter Posts: 1,549

    Re: Re: im here once more

    SNGX1275: Those pollution figures are not relevent, and misleading, due to the fact that America has a very large land mass. What you should be showing is pollution per head of population, then the situation would look considerably different. Just look at all those gas gusselling cars you all drive (ok, so not all americans drive large cars like GMCs, but these types of vehicles just shouldn't be built IMHO). :)
  21. Roderick

    Roderick TS Rookie Posts: 26

    And so it goes...

    You're correct on the accuracy part, but misundertood the purpose of categorizations. Pragmatically speaking, only a few sort of categorizations is EVER 100% accurate, and even less so when applied to "soft" and speculative enterprises such as the economy. The good/bad we're talking here isn't about "good vs evil" but whether a type of economic base, manufacturing or agricultural or tech or a blend, is applicable at the current time. A foresighted society will make adaptations in anticipations of new developments in all areas of this highly speculative enterprise call economics. Tiny landlocked European nations with little resources became financial powerhouses, same with sealocked Carribean ones. They're forced to speculate and categorize on how to survive economically with less than perfect knowledge as we all must do.

    The error lies in not knowing the degree of inaccuracies of said categorizations and act rashly upon it, leaving one's society with little margins for errors. The error also lies in underestimating the impact of even an incomplete knowledge base of an economic category. An excellent example of my 2 previous statements is the current status of Taiwanese semiconductor foundry industry. The Taiwanese realized they couldn't compete with major players such as Samsung, who owns over 30% of the DRAM market, followed by Micron of the US, then Hynix, then Infineon, then Toshiba and assorted minor Japanese companies. Hynix is deeply in debt but is supported by the S Korean government. DRAM are produced in such volumes that it's considered commodities like sugar and wheat. The profit margins are slim. So instead of entering into the DRAM market, or shutting down their semicon industry and plunge the island nation into an economic shock, they created their own quite speculative and inaccurate category of the semicon foundry business. It was a risky move but they pulled it off successfully and now other semicon companies are outsourcing the actual manufacturing of DRAM commodities to Taiwan and concentrating on R/D. Just as the Japanese had done to the US in automobiles, Taiwan is now doing the same to Japan in semiconductor manufacturing. This isn't about good/bad but about what is appropriate for the current time or crisis and categories, no matter how inaccurate, helps.
    Seems to me you're trying to pick and choose which industry that directly affect you to remain in country. That in itself ins't bad, we all want some form of job security. But we're talking about an abstract called capitalism and its ultimate desire, profit. Managed capitalism eventually morph into another socio/politico/economic abstract called socialism. Let's be intellectually honest and admit that all forms of economic theories have underlying socio/politico relationship, shall we ? It's hard for people in all strata of socio/politico/economic societies around the world to differentiate between equilibrium and equality when over 60% of them has yet to make their 1st telephone call. To people living in economic squalor, capitalism have no limits in making a difference in their lives. Who's right, you living in the 1st world whose job is in jeopardy, or them living in the 3rd world who are looking for jobs ? If categories can be inaccurate, so can opinions. The boom and bust cycles are the results of human fallacies in interpreting and whether being proactive or reactive enough to economic trends. The mere fact that economic inequalities exists between nations or even neighborhoods is proof enough of that. Capitalism "failed" not because of whatever perceived "inherent" flaws, but it "failed" because of our inability to distribute its practices fully. Notice I said "practices", not material wealth.
    By "us" do you mean those who are in "tech" ? If so, then the debate has become very localized to a very specific industry. Let's face it, the more localized and specific the less applicable the accusations against the abstract called capitalism. India's software industry is no difference in principle than the more "hard" industry such as durable goods manufacturing. If they apply their ample cheap labor to make X, the counter is to make whatever labor you got left more efficient at making X+nth. If they require 10 persons to make a code, you do whatever you must to make 5 of your people write the same code, the other 5 to write something else to work with it. The amount of labor is the same but the results are different and hopefully more attractive to customers. It's a competition, and it's a part of that abstract call capitalism.
    Of course a nation can do trade "just enough" to be self-sufficient and the national leadership can implement legal and protectionist measures to ensure the continual backwardness of their people in relation to other nations. We've both used Japan in this debate but you've failed to take her history into account. The US forced Japan to open its trading ports in the mid 1800s. Japan was happy in her isolationism, but became even more discontent once she realized the relative backwardness of her society. In about 50yrs, modernization allowed her to defeat the Russian Navy in the Russo-Japanese War. The point isn't about her militaristic leadership that plunge her people into war, but about the collective realization by the people of their status in comparison to the rest of the world. You're talking as if people/cultures/nations are static. Those that are static, dies. Either die by being conquered or they'll abandon their backward homeland and be absorbed by more advance societies. We either trade and advanced with the Vulcans or be fodder for the Klingons, or be assimilated by the Borg.
  22. Nic

    Nic TechSpot Paladin Topic Starter Posts: 1,549

    Just to be clear, the problem of jobs moving overseas is NOT confined to IT, but the very same reasoning (cost) can be used to move ALL high-salaried jobs overseas. In fact, anything that does not need to be local can be shipped out leaving only shelf-stacking, delivery, and repair, etc. jobs at home.

    I agree that qualifications and certification are no substitute for aptitude and experience. Aptitude is something you either have or don't have, while experience is gained from using your skills. However, I can say from experience that if you are good at your job and have an aptitude for what you do, then certification will make you even better. Certification (education), can provide you with knowledge and understanding of your area of expertise. I fully support certification, but on it's own it is meaningless.

    Outsourcing is occurring for reasons of cost, and not because of incompetence of local labour, though that certainly doesn't help matters. IT staff in India are way more incompetent than those at home, especially as english is not their native language.
  23. Nic

    Nic TechSpot Paladin Topic Starter Posts: 1,549


    A very good read (your post above). I'm afraid my knowledge of history is not up to yours, but the main problem I have with current trends is that NO job is safe, other than those that require a physical presence locally (e.g. shelf-stacking).

    The reasons for moving IT jobs overseas (cost) can be applied to nearly all jobs, although currently it is IT that is being affected. The way I see it is that if we disagree that all jobs (that don't require a local presence) should move offshore to save costs, then why should we let this happen to IT.

    Labour costs are much less in India (1:10 ratio), so we cannot possibly compete. Protectionism is required, but only to the extent of supporting services used locally. That seems like a pretty good trade to me.
  24. Roderick

    Roderick TS Rookie Posts: 26

    Re: Re: Re: im here once more

    The per head figures would be accurate if the pollution would confine itself to the particular head (or ***) that produced it, and after my own 5 alarm chili, I'll violate the Kyoto Treaty every which way possible. Speaking of which, it cracks me up every time I hear someone criticizes US for not signing the Kyoto Treaty when advanced nations like Sweden and Australia refused to sign it for the exactly same reason as well. Alberta "environment" minister Lorne Taylor said : "We clearly will not implement the Kyoto agreement as it applies to Alberta, Now, we recognize the federal government has every right to sign international agreements, but it's very clear who owns the resource. The people of Alberta own the resources of Alberta."

  25. Nic

    Nic TechSpot Paladin Topic Starter Posts: 1,549

    CO2 Emmission per head of population.

    The USA leads the world ...


    Interesting that 2 of the worst offenders (USA, Australia) are the ones refusing to do something about the problem. Sweden is already in good shape.
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