Next-gen EV batteries could last decades, researchers show the potential of single-crystal electrode tech

[Moojuice]

"New battery tech could do this and that!" Never does this or that.

Well said, I'm fed up as well.

 

[gamerk2]

We hear this kind of thing all the time. But improvements in battery performance stay tantalizingly just around the corner. I guess we will just have to keep on waiting for these breakthroughs to reach the market. I wont believe in any of this hype without real life results.

The problem, fundamentally, is integrating a new kind of battery with both a product and the existing infrastructure.

Example: Ok, we have a battery that lasts 100x as long as current ones, holds 10x the charge, and recharges in minutes with existing technology, all for the same weight. Great, but how do you integrate it into a new product (lets say a car for arguments sake)? What design changes does the battery packing require? How many can you produce per week (EG: Can you meet demand)? Are you sole sourcing for my company, or do my competitors get access if I keep you afloat (otherwise I might just wait for you to fail then try and purchase the IP for myself). What resources do we need to even make the thing? Oh, plus the understanding I'm eating 100%+ losses on the battery itself for at least a few years until production ramps (if it ever does).

So it goes beyond far more then just the technology; it's getting it into some sort of product, at a reasonable price, that's the main factor. Hence why subsidies are key, and really the only way the technology is going to see any real advance in the market.

 

[toooooot]

If someone could find a way to build EV batteries that can last 20 years and the adequate amount of recharges featuring moderate price, gasoline cars would not need government regulations to kill them,
they would die on their own. But that is the thing, making a good battery that allows for comparable experience to that of driving a gasoline car requires a lot of time, and even more money.
There is a promise, the promise of something much better for humans to use to travel, but it is years 2025 and it is still not there. For all their advantages, EVs have the same number of disadvantages. And that is why the governments in some countries or state are trying to smother gasoline cars.

 

[pnntmp]

When I see 'could' and 'battery' used in the same sentence, my level of skepticism immediately quadruples.

As I get it, nobody actually tested 20,000 cycles, that's merely an extrapolation, under the assumption the initial low degradation will continue. It's yet to be discovered if that's the case, how these batteries behave with normal cycles, what happens with age etc.

There's a very long way from 'could' to large scale production.

 

[Darth Shiv]

I'll consider an EV the day that recharging a battery takes the same amount of time as filling the tank with gas does.

I don't need to go to a service station... plug in at home, drive around town, plug in at work. Fraction of cost to fill. Top it up when power prices are off peak or solar is going. Your loss. These things are miles better than combustion engine vehicles and a tiny fraction of the maintenance liabilities too.

 

[Darth Shiv]

Just seen, " these advanced batteries are already in commercial production". Where can I buy one? I would be happy with just one cell to test. Hang on at 10 hour charge/ discharge rate that would take 44years to test. Have I made a mistake with my calculations? Testing at 1 hour rate would take 4.4 years. I am begining to doubt these claims.

You do realise degradation of materials is a science where you can project life by analysing the material degradation rate? You don't need to test it for 44 years to tell it will last roughly that long.

There are millions of things tested using these techniques nowadays... it's had pretty good field testing.

 

[Northy]

It's good to see the heat being turned up on battery research, all leading to the inevitable result of cheaper and better batteries for everyone. Kudos to the scientists and investors with vision making this a reality, ignoring the naysayers, those with personal obstacles and those complaining that it's not the future already.

 

[mbk34]

Consumables are what make or break auto industries. Batteries that last would break EV economics and capitalism 101.

I suspect that's why there's so much bad publicity around EVs in the states. EVs have only become widespread in the last decade but there are plenty of very high mileage EVs out there already. Tesla say their old batteries last between 300K and 400K miles. The new LFP batteries are said to last longer. The only consumables in the first couple of 100K miles on most of the better EVs are tyres, windscreen wipers and perhaps a change of battery coolant. I'm guessing it's a bad time to be a mechanic.

 

[Endymio]

I suspect that's why there's so much bad publicity around EVs in the states.

Rubbish; we simply have slightly less propaganda pushing them here. The primary issues most people cite for not buying aren't battery longevity, but rather range, charging issues, and higher initial cost.

The only consumables in the first couple of 100K miles on most of the better EVs are tyres, windscreen wipers and perhaps a change of battery coolant..

The only consumables on most ICE vehicles before the powertrain needs a major overhaul is 200,000+ miles, and the only additional consumables are oil changes. In the modern vehicle era, most mechanics are kept busy not fixing engines, but rather some of the electrical and electronic systems -- the average car has about 1,400 of these, whereas some EVs have more than double this.

 

[mbk34]

ICE engines have 100's of moving parts so obviously they wear out quicker than an EV motor with only 25 moving parts. I did check though and the average American car is junked at around 150K miles but I'd guess they're pretty much worthless well before then. I checked but I couldn't find any high mileage (100K+ miles) ICE cars on used car web sites but you do see EV's with 100K miles for sale and they actually look in good condition, in fact owner reviews state the only difference between a decent new EV and the same one with 100K miles is around 5% battery degradation.

I do agree that the charging infrastructure for a first world country is appalling but I guess it's a chicken and egg type issue.

 

[toooooot]

ICE engines have 100's of moving parts so obviously they wear out quicker than an EV motor with only 25 moving parts. I did check though and the average American car is junked at around 150K miles but I'd guess they're pretty much worthless well before then. I checked but I couldn't find any high mileage (100K+ miles) ICE cars on used car web sites but you do see EV's with 100K miles for sale and they actually look in good condition, in fact owner reviews state the only difference between a decent new EV and the same one with 100K miles is around 5% battery degradation.

I do agree that the charging infrastructure for a first world country is appalling but I guess it's a chicken and egg type issue.

When battery nears the end of its life cycle, it does not matter if it has a small recharge count though. Batteries die when it is their time to die. A gently used ICE car with a low milage however becomes a more desirable choice for someone looking for a budget ride.
Yes, I know, a low of people could not care less what happens to their car after 10+ years. But there are tens of millions of those who look for a car in that exact category every day!
Imagine buying a car thinking it is a decent ride since it has low recharge count only to realize later that the old battery does not care if it has low recharge count because it is a battery that just aged due to chemical processes.

This is why I keep saying that for a wide EV adoption, the batteries really need to last, or else there will be a category of people who will not be able to afford a car at all if our government is dumb enough to force EVs as the only type of cars.
This is a disadvantage a lot of people are not aware of, but they should be because an old battery is not the same as the old engine made of metal. Plenty of people do not drive a lot, which allows their pretty old cars to last pretty long time. Old age, low milage is a good combo for an ICE car. Low milage, old age for EV not so much.

 

[mbk34]

When battery nears the end of its life cycle, it does not matter if it has a small recharge count though. Batteries die when it is their time to die. A gently used ICE car with a low milage however becomes a more desirable choice for someone looking for a budget ride.
Yes, I know, a low of people could not care less what happens to their car after 10+ years. But there are tens of millions of those who look for a car in that exact category every day!
Imagine buying a car thinking it is a decent ride since it has low recharge count only to realize later that the old battery does not care if it has low recharge count because it is a battery that just aged due to chemical processes.

This is why I keep saying that for a wide EV adoption, the batteries really need to last, or else there will be a category of people who will not be able to afford a car at all if our government is dumb enough to force EVs as the only type of cars.
This is a disadvantage a lot of people are not aware of, but they should be because an old battery is not the same as the old engine made of metal. Plenty of people do not drive a lot, which allows their pretty old cars to last pretty long time. Old age, low milage is a good combo for an ICE car. Low milage, old age for EV not so much.

Tesla's etc have only been around for about 10 years so there's not enough any info about how long the batteries really last. Owners say the lose about 5% of capacity in the first few years and then the capacity stays pretty constant. There are plenty of high mileage vehicles out there with many 100's of thousands of miles on them and owners state they have no issues. Nearly all owners state they have ridiculously low service and "fuel" bills but I guess they don't include tyres and they probably charge at home. I think Tesla gives a warranty of about 150000 miles. Newer battery technologies like solid state are probably about 5 years away from being affordable but current EVs with a 200-300 mile range are more than enough for me, modern EVs are probably too performance orientated for me - I don't want to insure a sub 5 sec car but I do like the idea of almost zero fuel bills and maintenance costs. I actually have a 50 year old convertible ICE car in the garage and I know that it isn't cheap to keep going and that it hates sitting idle. YMMV.