Alfatawi Mendel
Posts: 277 +467
Is that it? I'm struggling to see a difference here. There would be zero difference whilst actually PLAYING the game. The new Hairworks....
Nvidia DLSS 3 Revisit: We Try It Out in 9 Games
- Thread starter Scorpus
- Start date
Interesting article. Thanks. Having experienced playing games with DLSS3 and frame gen, I think the technology has promise, there are games where it actually works and even works quite well... certainly with games where the frame rate is already approaching 60 it does make sense.
My initial impression of the article was that your criticism was harsh, however as I read on it dawned on me that your approach is justified, and very welcome. At impressive as it is, it is essential that this technology is picked apart in every detail, in order to discourage Nvidia from marketing this is pure performance - and pricing it in.
My initial impression of the article was that your criticism was harsh, however as I read on it dawned on me that your approach is justified, and very welcome. At impressive as it is, it is essential that this technology is picked apart in every detail, in order to discourage Nvidia from marketing this is pure performance - and pricing it in.
yeah DLSS should be a bonus, not a selling point.
IMHO the problem is you eventually run smack face first in to the wall of diminishing returns with these fancy tech tricks. So the only solution is to push things past what's reasonable to be able to state a massive performance increase. No matter how Nvidia tweaks things they're limited by the constraints of monitor design and how rendering works. And there's only so much they'll be able to do in the end.
m3tavision
Posts: 1,227 +999
If you buy a new GPU there should be no reason to use upscaling...
Train of thought.... 4070ti-6950xt-4080-7900xt-4090-7900xtx all can run 1440p games well above 120 frames...
Train of thought.... 4070ti-6950xt-4080-7900xt-4090-7900xtx all can run 1440p games well above 120 frames...
b3rdm4n
Posts: 138 +93
I'll look out for those next time I play, because I'm not seeing them now. You should check too, but I get the feeling you can't first hand. I'm glad I asked.
You won't believe me anyways.
Maybe you'll believe Tim
https://www.techspot.com/article/2583-amd-fsr-vs-dlss/
Or maybe not.
b3rdm4n
Posts: 138 +93
I'll just use my own eyes, something Tim and I have in common. But a point in time review with Tim's limited game selections and older DLSS versions won't provide either of us much value in march 2023 and beyond.
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It seems like FG will be meaningful when you want to game at high refresh rate, and the game is running at high FPS with DLSS upscaling to begin with. It is not useful if it is struggling to deliver a smooth game play as the latency is going to be poor, even though the FPS is artificially bumped up. I think the issue with latency is an inherent issue that will not go away and will affect the likes of FPS and racing sims.
The reality is that as games become more complex, graphically speaking, you're going to need more high-performance hardware. Cost aside, the current crop of hardware can only deliver so much performance. Developers are pushing the envelope when it comes to visuals and not all of them optimize their games.
We are at an interesting point in time where the power requirements to deliver that 120+ FPS across high-end games will start to push past 1000W which is a lot of power for a home appliance. I believe this is one reason AMD didn't try to match 4090 performance because they understood it would require massive power. We are going to need ways to drive more FPS without requiring high-power hardware.
I may have missed it, but I didn't see what resolution they were running in this testing. At 1440, you're right, at 4K those fps numbers come down quite a bit. I figure 120-150 fps is sufficient for gaming. Whether you need 4K is a personal decision, I suppose. I still game at 1080 simply because I have 2 1080P monitors that I haven't upgraded yet.
Nah I have plenty of experience.
b3rdm4n
Posts: 138 +93
Certainly has all the hallmarks;
References reviews as source of knowledge - check
Regurgitate the negative aspects shown in reviews - check
Day 1 talking points used when downplaying it - check
Evident disposition toward hating Nvidia - check
I wonder, say Tim reviewed DLSS, but did so based on watching someone else's content or reading other reviews, would his review carry any merit? unlikely, Yet some seem so confused when their opinion is promptly dismissed and ignored by the people that own the hardware required to use it.
If you think DLSS is blurry, then you have no proper experience with it, thats for sure. Can easily be fixed by replacing dll if implementation is bad.
Don't know why you're so butt hurt about it. You probably would get upset if I told you I can hear the difference between different audio formats.
Plenty of people have turned on dlss and then turned it off because they don't like the up converted image quality. If you like it then good for you.
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b3rdm4n
Posts: 138 +93
I'm not at all, assumption on your part.
Strawman bad, but at least in that example we can assume you are directly the one experiencing it.
Good for them I spose, just as good for the majority of owners who leave it on and desire it over native. I'd rather hear their experienced thoughts on DLSS than yours, but somehow it always seems to be the people that down own RTX cards that throw it the most shade, so this somewhat serves as a public facing rebuttal to that.
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Not sure why you're discounting my first hand experience with it but whatevs.
m3tavision
Posts: 1,227 +999
Are you gaslighting, or actually serious...?
Everyone knows that playing native is SUPERIOR to using DLSS...! They only reason you use DLSS, is if you have an improper dGPU for your monitor and it can not push the pixels, so you must reduce your resolution to increase your frames for the single-player game you are playing.
Nobody gaming at 120FPS is going to turn on DLSS to get 200 frames of blurry mess in a multiplayer game, or FPS...! It's gross...!
b3rdm4n
Posts: 138 +93
Everyone? well everyone except..
Hardware Unboxed, Tim
DSO Gaming
Venturebeat, Geoff Grubb
Digital Foundry, Alex Battaglia
Techpowerup!, maxus24
Then there's HUB's own poll from almost 2 years ago which polled 80,000 people, 12,000 people can't tell the difference and 15,200 people say it improves the visual quality. 9,600 said it reduced visual quality and 44,800 hadn't even tried it. So of the people that had at the time had tried it, 72% said it looked as good or better. Almost 2 years ago.
All of those quotes and results were from over 18 months ago now too, where several versions in the meantime have significantly improved various aspects again, most notably 2.5.1 which of course can be dropped into virtually any supported game.
So forgive me but when you drop a blanket statement like "everyone knows native is superior", I don't know what on earth you're talking about, I just end up back at - somehow it always seems to be the people that down own RTX cards that throw it the most shade.
m3tavision
Posts: 1,227 +999
LOL^
Do you really believe that they polled 80k NVidia users who have 4k Monitors. (How come I didn't get polled..?)
Native what...? Motion clarity what..? Because DLSS is ugly as hell in any fast moving FPS games I play... and yes NOBODY turns on upscaling, unless their GPU is weak and can't push a game at 60+ frames, so they will forgo the blurry mess for more frames until they can get a new GPU
Upscaling is more of a 4k crutch than for 1440p, because it's fidelity gets better at 4k. So, your argument above is for 4k dlss. And yes, in certain bad games/engines, upscaling at 4k can actually clean up the engine noise, etc. But, DLSS doesn't have any more of a use-case than FSR. FSR has wider adoption and zero marketing needed.
FSR will aid in the adoption of 1440p and 4k, because Gamers will feel comfortable knowing they can buy their new higher resolution monitors now, using their old/current GPU & with upscaling using FSR.... and later at some point in the future, buy a GPU that can actually push their new resolution.
ie: using upscaling on games to keep their 1080p performance, while playing at 1440p... Upscaling is a crutch....
Nobody expects to buy a new gpu and have to use a crutch, with the intent of using upscaling... bcz their brand new GPU should already be able to push well beyond 2x of what their 980ti, 1080ti, or 2070 could... so whats the need for upscaling..?
Are you trying to suggest that people who buy a brand new $2,300 RTX4090 are the ones who needs DLSS..? Not the people who have old hardware and just moved from 1080p to 1440p using their older GTX hardware..? Like I said, Everyone understands, that it cost $2,200 to actually play using RTX... everyone else will be using the industry standard FSR.
Regardless of what upscaling offers more visual fidelity... doesn't really matter. It is... which one is used more (VHS vs BETAMAX).
Half a billion people will be gaming on the XSX and PS5 by the end of the year. FSR works on all GPUs and is just spreading it's wings....
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b3rdm4n
Posts: 138 +93
lol indeed, conclusively disproved your statement, and you immediately wonder why you weren't polled (it was public, anyone can vote) and it has nothing to do with 4k. All the rest is shifted narrative and goalposts so I'm off, if you can't even admit when you're incorrect, and launch into parallel arguments and there's even strawman in there, I have zero interest in having a discussion about it, as I'm going to wager you'd do the same thing again anyway.
To recap, you said "Everyone knows that playing native is SUPERIOR to using DLSS...!", I conclusively disproved that, and now I'm off. Enjoy.
m3tavision
Posts: 1,227 +999
Correct^^ @ 4k... (nothing they are talking about is at 720p to 1080p, or even 1080p upscaled to 1440p.! As noted that upscaling gets cleaner the higher the base resolution is... so if you are using 1440p to upscale to 4k, DLSS (ie: upscaling) can give certain Game engines a cleaner look. Hence your random quotes of people from 2 years ago.)
And those People are indeed talking about how DLSS in certain game engines can upscale and clean up artifacts at higher resolutions, if you do not use a certain AA, etc. You have not conclusively proved anything... because those people are NOT talking about motion clarity....
And ANYONE and ANY gamer who plays a FPS game and uses DLSS knows for a fact, in most FPS games (save DOOM) it's a blurry mess. Things that should be clear in the distance are blurry, while things close to your character and including your guns are render properly.
Upscaling works great for single player games, but in FPS Gamers where movement and fidelity of FOV matter, upscaling becomes a hinderance.
That is why Pro players do NOT use any upscaling at all... NVidia can't even pay them to, because it would hinder their own gameplay.
And those People are indeed talking about how DLSS in certain game engines can upscale and clean up artifacts at higher resolutions, if you do not use a certain AA, etc. You have not conclusively proved anything... because those people are NOT talking about motion clarity....
And ANYONE and ANY gamer who plays a FPS game and uses DLSS knows for a fact, in most FPS games (save DOOM) it's a blurry mess. Things that should be clear in the distance are blurry, while things close to your character and including your guns are render properly.
Upscaling works great for single player games, but in FPS Gamers where movement and fidelity of FOV matter, upscaling becomes a hinderance.
That is why Pro players do NOT use any upscaling at all... NVidia can't even pay them to, because it would hinder their own gameplay.
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