Schools are using FBI hacking tools to access students' phones

Hexic

Posts: 955   +1,354
TechSpot Elite
And once again - children don't actually have these rights... whether we agree or not, minors are not covered with the same rights and freedoms as adults...

Agreed, however as Endymio stated earlier - absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence. One can not just assume additional evidence is there without proof. This is how political firestorms and conspiracy theories begin. This is very similar to the correlation==causation fallacy.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 4,035   +3,163
Agreed, however as Endymio stated earlier - absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence. One can not just assume additional evidence is there without proof. This is how political firestorms and conspiracy theories begin. This is very similar to the correlation==causation fallacy.
And for adults, we have the “innocent until proven guilty”... just not for kids... I make a point of telling my students this every year... how they have no rights and that school is a dictatorship... I invite them to change those rules once they’re adults... shockingly, there’s never much interest at that point...
 

cliffordcooley

Posts: 12,739   +6,107
I invite them to change those rules once they’re adults...
Bravo!! Keep it up! Maybe one day.

Edit: But I do think you are mistaken. They are protected under their parents rights. For some reason we are being forced to sign them away. That is not something easily contested for changed.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 4,035   +3,163
Bravo!! Keep it up! Maybe one day.

Edit: But I do think you are mistaken. They are protected under their parents rights. For some reason we are being forced to sign them away. That is not something easily contested for changed.
read my first post... parents sign a waiver and “poof”, children’s rights disappear.

most parents are in favour of this though... almost all of the people against this either aren’t affected (don’t have kids) or are the kids themselves.
 

Athlonite

Posts: 237   +83
As a teacher, I have very few issues with this... Students' lockers have always been the subject of searches - assuming there is reason to believe that there is something to search for...

Why should their phones be any different?

We are trying to TEACH children to be better people - having them learn not to keep anything incriminating on their phones is actually a really good lesson for them to learn :)

A student locker is school property a phone is not that is the private property of the student and nothing short of a search warrant should give you access to its contents
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 4,035   +3,163
A student locker is school property a phone is not that is the private property of the student and nothing short of a search warrant should give you access to its contents
And if they were adults, you’d be correct... but students don’t have rights... please read the comments before you post...
 

ross01

Posts: 49   +21
I think this is a great idea but heavy oversight and transparency has to be put in place so predators don't use it. Kids today can destroy other kids lives with their phones and school teachers whose job is to stop bullying etc can't do anything if they can't access the phone and the kid says no. We are adults so we forget kids can be cruel to one another. Likely that is what most schools are using it for anyway to delete online bullying posts etc. So many dumb teens sending nudes to another kid then that other kid uses it as blackmail online.
 

jpuroila

Posts: 332   +183
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Exactly the point I was making. And the only way it would end in media is if someone told the parents.

And once again - children don't actually have these rights... whether we agree or not, minors are not covered with the same rights and freedoms as adults...
While children don't have the same rights as adults when it comes to things that require giving consent or making informed decisions(consuming alcohol, having sex, voting in elections, etc.), they do have the same PROTECTIONS as adults, such as the right to privacy(with exceptions based on the fact that they can't give consent themselves, so their guardian(or sometimes another adult like a medical practitioner) gets to make decisions for them, such as consenting to a violation of privacy).
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 4,035   +3,163
While children don't have the same rights as adults when it comes to things that require giving consent or making informed decisions(consuming alcohol, having sex, voting in elections, etc.), they do have the same PROTECTIONS as adults, such as the right to privacy(with exceptions based on the fact that they can't give consent themselves, so their guardian(or sometimes another adult like a medical practitioner) gets to make decisions for them, such as consenting to a violation of privacy).
And do we know that the parents weren't informed? As a teacher, I always inform the parents whenever I take ANYTHING from a child - from contraband chewing gum to a firearm (no, I haven't taken any firearms from children - yet).. 99% of the time, the parent is grateful that I did so - and then they promise to discipline their child at home (but the follow through on that is not nearly as high a %).

Many parents these days (and probably in the past too, but I can't speak for that) are overwhelmed by their children - keeping up to date on what their kids think are "cool" is a losing proposition and they are depending on the school system to "bring up their kids".

This isn't really a "story" until we see the parents from these communities "outraged" over the loss of their children's privacy... my guess: we won't see that outrage.
 

cliffordcooley

Posts: 12,739   +6,107
This isn't really a "story" until we see the parents from these communities "outraged" over the loss of their children's privacy... my guess: we won't see that outrage.
Not when people like you seem to be fighting to protect these notions. Because you know that is the way it currently works. Well here I am presenting the notion that searching parents cellphones are going too far. When the parent is paying for the phone it is their phone. That fact doesn't change simply because it is in their child's hand. And no searching their handbag for knives guns drugs or any other harmful product is not the same thing.

We are so close to loosing our constitution. And it all started by stripping our kids of their constitutional rights. You say people are not pushing back. Who do you think you are arguing against?

Our rights to freedom and privacy was established for a reason. And you have presented evidence that you don't mind trampling all over them. All because you confiscated something you didn't have to search for illegally. And the parent didn't mind and seemed to be grateful. Yeah grateful until they find themselves in court.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 4,035   +3,163
Not when people like you seem to be fighting to protect these notions. Because you know that is the way it currently works. Well here I am presenting the notion that searching parents cellphones are going too far. When the parent is paying for the phone it is their phone. That fact doesn't change simply because it is in their child's hand. And no searching their handbag for knives guns drugs or any other harmful product is not the same thing.

We are so close to loosing our constitution. And it all started by stripping our kids of their constitutional rights. You say people are not pushing back. Who do you think you are arguing against?

Our rights to freedom and privacy was established for a reason. And you have presented evidence that you don't mind trampling all over them. All because you confiscated something you didn't have to search for illegally. And the parent didn't mind and seemed to be grateful. Yeah grateful until they find themselves in court.
Again - the parents GIVE THEIR PERMISSION - their rights are NOT being violated... only children's rights - which again, they don't actually have.

And are you a parent in one of these schools? Is anyone who posted in this thread? I'm thinking... no... so I'm NOT arguing against the people who are "losing their rights" - I'm arguing against people who simply think this is wrong without actually experiencing the situation...
 

cliffordcooley

Posts: 12,739   +6,107
Again - the parents GIVE THEIR PERMISSION - their rights are NOT being violated...
YES THEY ARE!

Our rights are not something to be signed away. Even asking a person to do so is unconstitutional. Our constitution is in place to protect us from people that want to strip us of our rights. Some where along the way people have forgotten that.

Everyone knows my standpoint. There is no need in continuing this back and forth with you.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 4,035   +3,163
YES THEY ARE!

Our rights are not something to be signed away. Even asking a person to do so is unconstitutional. Our constitution is in place to protect us from people that want to strip us of our rights. Some where along the way people have forgotten that.

Everyone knows my standpoint. There is no need in continuing this back and forth with you.
Once you give something to someone else, "your" rights aren't really being infringed upon... especially if you give permission...

I understand your point - and it MIGHT apply to 2 consenting adults (a husband giving his wife a phone but allowing cops to search it - that could be argued)

But when children are involved, permission HAS to be given - no constitutional rights are being taken away - we sign forms to allow our children to do just about everything nowadays... from playing music, getting their photos taken, participating in physical education, etc... having their phones searched really isn't a big deal.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 4,035   +3,163
Yes they are!
While I appreciate your Monty Python style of arguing... perhaps provide a source for this?

If the school feels it has good cause to search a student's phone and have asked the parents for permission, please explain how CHILDREN are losing constitutional rights by having their cell phones searched.

 

cliffordcooley

Posts: 12,739   +6,107
While I appreciate your Monty Python style of arguing... perhaps provide a source for this?
You mean like the source that we no longer live in a free country. Open your eyes and look around. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see either case. What am I saying. You couldn't possibly do that.
 

cliffordcooley

Posts: 12,739   +6,107
If your son online bullies another student I bet you will start screaming its his constitutional right to not forfeit his phone so please don't reproduce, our school teachers don't need your headaches.
First mistake you made is assuming I wouldn't deal with my own kid. You shouldn't have stepped in and opened your ignorant mouth. People like myself is not why schools feel the need to be a parent.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 4,035   +3,163
You mean like the source that we no longer live in a free country. Open your eyes and look around. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see either case. What am I saying. You couldn't possibly do that.
Well, I live in Canada.... but your point once again is erroneous... "Freedom" ends as soon as it affects the freedom of someone else.

You have the right to free speech - but if it becomes hate speech (like encouraging the killing of a minority, etc), it is illegal - and the authorities will come for you...

You have the right to bear arms (however stupid many people think it is) - but that right ends as soon as you draw your weapon and shoot someone - then YOU go to jail.

You have the right to private property - but if you rob a bank and stash the cash at home, the authorities have the right to search your place for it - provided they get a warrant.

Your CHILD, on the other hand, enjoys no such rights. They don't enjoy free speech, they aren't allowed to have a firearm, nor are they allowed to own a house - these must be provided by their guardian(s). They also don't get to drive, vote, serve in the military or imbibe alcohol.

If a CHILD has done something that the school they attend deems to be against school policy (generally bullying or violence or some illegal behaviour), then the school has every right to search anything the child has brought to school - if the guardian has given permission.

I fail to see where this ends your free country...
 

Endymio

Posts: 1,334   +1,216
Your CHILD, on the other hand, enjoys no such rights. They don't enjoy free speech, they aren't allowed to have a firearm, nor are they allowed to own a house ...
I'm sorry, but this blanket statement isn't true, not in the US, nor Canada, nor under International Law. In the US, for example, children in school have a Constitutional right to free speech (per the USSC dec. Tinker v. Des. Moines), they can own property, up to and including homes, and (in 30 states at least) they can possess firearms (excluding handguns).

Children do in fact have a great variety of legal rights. They have a subset of the rights adults do (excluding rights like voting, imbibing of alcohol, etc) and they also have additional legal rights not afforded to adults, such as certain rights to care and shelter. International Laws, such as the Convention on Rights of the Child -- which Canada has ratified -- includes many of these protections, including the right to privacy.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 4,035   +3,163
I'm sorry, but this blanket statement isn't true, not in the US, nor Canada, nor under International Law. In the US, for example, children in school have a Constitutional right to free speech (per the USSC dec. Tinker v. Des. Moines), they can own property, up to and including homes, and (in 30 states at least) they can possess firearms (excluding handguns).

Children do in fact have a great variety of legal rights. They have a subset of the rights adults do (excluding rights like voting, imbibing of alcohol, etc) and they also have additional legal rights not afforded to adults, such as certain rights to care and shelter. International Laws, such as the Convention on Rights of the Child -- which Canada has ratified -- includes many of these protections, including the right to privacy.
Sorry... while children may own property - they can't actually DO anything with it until they are 18 (age of majority) and it is simply held in trust for them until they reach that age... my point remains valid.

And while in many states, children are technically allowed to own rifles and other firearms, federal law prohibits them from purchasing them until they are 18...

Again, nitpicking the facts doesn't take away from the point... so maybe just accept it and move on :)
 

Endymio

Posts: 1,334   +1,216
while children may own property - they can't actually DO anything with it until they are 18 (age of majority) and it is simply held in trust for them until they reach that age ...Again, nitpicking the facts doesn't take away from the point...
In a thread about privacy rights and freedom of speech, I notice you failed to rebut that children have these same freedoms as do adults, and instead chose to pick nits regarding other rights.

And in any case, your statement about property rights is flatly untrue. Children can not only own property -- up to and including multi-million dollar real estate holdings -- but can freely control it in the same manner as any adult: buy, sell, rent, whatever. The sole limitation is that a child cannot themselves enter into a mortgage contract, but even that restriction can be negated by an order granting them emancipated status.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 4,035   +3,163
In a thread about privacy rights and freedom of speech, I notice you failed to rebut that children have these same freedoms as do adults, and instead chose to pick nits regarding other rights.

And in any case, your statement about property rights is flatly untrue. Children can not only own property -- up to and including multi-million dollar real estate holdings -- but can freely control it in the same manner as any adult: buy, sell, rent, whatever. The sole limitation is that a child cannot themselves enter into a mortgage contract, but even that restriction can be negated by an order granting them emancipated status.
A Child's right to free speech is NOT the same as an adult's... While certain rights are given to them, if authorities (including schools) decide that what a child says isn't appropriate, it can be legally "censored"...

While children may own property in a limited sense in some states, they still don't have the exact rights as an adult does... nor should they...

The underlying point that I was making - which I'm pretty sure everyone on the thread understood - was that children's rights are limited compared to adults, and searching their phones does not violate anything - provided their guardians give consent.