Vigilante
Posts: 1,634 +0
[this post is in two threads, cause I really didn't feel like editing out 8000 characters!]
Watching made a good point, which applies to ANY faith. Simply that, yes, most religions think they are the only one, got it. But, if any person believes their faith to be wholly 100% true to the bone, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to "accept" any other faith. Some people would tell me, "dude, I don't want to hear you, stop pushing your beliefs on me". But by the same token, I wouldn't let some other faith into my house who tries to indoctrinate me either.
There is no acceptance.
Now, "tolerance" is another thing. It can only go so far. I can tolerate somebody from another religion wearing some kind of vudu head gear walking around the mall. But I wouldn't tolerate them building a shrine there. I mean, you know what I mean? It's like, people can go around in school doing/saying/wearing whatever they want. But Christians can't have the 10 commandments, or wear a shirt that says "Jesus lives" or whatever. Have to remove "God" from the national anthem. Can't say a prayer over lunch food (which it desperately needs ). So who is the intolerant one?
Sometimes I read the news and wonder, who is intolerant? Seems to me everybody is intolerant of Christianity. Of course that is a big statement, but "sometimes" it feels like it. SOMETIMES! lol
Anyway that's off the point. I just think it's true that if a person of a certain faith who believes 100% in their faith, there can be no acceptance. There can be no acknowledgment of another "way".
If a person DOES accept other faiths, they obviously have little faith in their own, and they really don't know what "truth" to go by. Can't really say "the only truth is no truth." If there is any truth at all, then it is an absolute truth, and it would not be a wasted life spent trying to find it.
It's like somebody saying "I don't believe in absolutes" and you say "you really believe that?" and he says "absolutely". lol. Like saying "their are absolutely no absolutes". Huh?
Atheism is a faith, or religion as well, it's the belief in no God. Since most would say God is not provable, or that He isn't observable in science, it can also be fair to say that whether you actively believe IN a god, or actively REFUSE to believe in one, they can be equal in their faith. You have faith that god exists, or have faith that there isn't one. It's still a choice.
Just because there are a LOT of religions, doesn't mean the conclusion is you shouldn't believe. It's like, I go to the store to buy cheese and see 50 different kinds. That doesn't mean I should walk out and decide there must be no cheese.
Instead, I think the plethora of religions must mean one thing, there must be SOME kind of higher, spiritual power. Think about it. People are MADE to worship things, and they always gravitate to worshiping something bigger then themselves. A big one of course is money. Other times it can just be things, or athletes, or movie stars, or whatever the case may be. There is not one human on earth who is born who doesn't naturally gravitate to wanting to place something in high honor, even to the point of worship. A Christian would say God "wired" us that way. Because that's what we were meant for. But sadly that worshiping spirit is spent on many other things in life.
If a person walks into some random church where people are singing songs and maybe raising their hands or swaying side to side, people would say they are weird. But is that not much different worship then going to a rock concert where people are, very similarly, worshiping the band, raising their hands, swaying side to side and utterly getting "into" that band? It's worship, and people were meant to do it.
So by that token, even the most remote, outcast, people in the world, have gravitated to worshiping an unseen being. So I think the vastness of Deity worship gives greater evidence to the fact that their must BE something?
And Spike, I know what you mean about how a lot of religions could really be worshiping the same God, but maybe with a different name, if that's what you said, or meant, at some point in this thread. But anyhoo, that's valid, maybe they are, but maybe they don't know God fully? In other words, it would be like getting married but the only thing you have of your wife is like a foot or hand. Maybe it is God, but they don't have the whole God, the whole understanding of who He is and what He's about and what He's done on earth. Perhaps their view of God is some strict totalitarian, where if they don't do their rituals, God with strike.
Or perhaps their view is that God is a big jolly Santa Claus in the sky, looking down with big rosy red cheeks and will ultimately let most people into heaven just cause they were "basically good".
Our view of God is not one which "helps us". Our view is not one that allows EVERYBODY into heaven just based on a relative better-then-the-next-guy scale. Our view is not that we ourselves will ascend in life to become gods ourselves. Our view is not that He abandoned us down here to figure things out with a muddled and incomprehensible "word", and will judge us in the end based on whether we figured out the puzzle or not.
Our view of God is that He is Lord of lords and King of kings. He sits on the throne, holding the universe in the palm of his hand. And is, in all things, sovereign. He is THAT greatly big, and also greatly small that he takes care of even the lowliest things.
Mathew 28-30 "And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin......if God so clothe the grass of the field.....". God has his hand on even the smallest of details, and knows the number of hairs on your head. So no, I don't he just abandoned us here to figure things out.
Our view of God is that He is both great and small. Both loving AND just. Neither overrides the other, and is quite as you said Spike, a "balance". It can't be said of God that he will let people in heaven cause they had pretty good lives. Even though it sounds loving, it's not, because God is also JUST, and CANNOT tolerate sin which must be judged. And God said what happens when you sin in Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Wow, there is the gospel summed up
I won't preach, I'm trying to say what our view of God is. This view of God as laid out in the Bible, puts God in a very high place. One in which we simply can't rationalize Him down to a stature which brings us up higher even in our spiritual state. It's God who "was, and is, and is to come", and Malachi 3:6 which says "For I am the LORD, I change not;". God would have to change every time he allows or didn't allow someone into Heaven, because He is judging relatively. He would have to have no standards to go by, just a "you were pretty good". In order for God to never change, He would have to have extremely absolute laws governing even His own behavior. Now this could be fulfilled, for example, if EVERY sin were laid out like a list, and if you break less then 4 a day, you're in. That would be an absolute, unchanging law. But that's not what the Bible says. It says just that, you sin, you die. You break the law, you go to jail, forever. That is an absolute law, and it doesn't mean He's unloving, it means He is JUST, and righteous, and unchanging. His Love gave a way out. That's all I'll say about that.
As you can see, a Christian perspective of God doesn't help us much, it's not an easy faith. And God did say "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.". And "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:". Those statements obviously throw out views of God which make Him to be a big push over. A "pie in the sky", and "jolly saint Nick". It's a healthy FEAR of God that begins your wisdom. You don't fear God if you are not even worried about your own eternal safety. Unless of course you just don't believe in that kind of afterlife, which many do. But that is our view in any case.
Oh yea, and no I don't mean to throw out all the OT, lol. It has way to much good stuff. It contains the prophesies which Jesus fulfilled. In contains the Psalms and Proverbs, two books that if every human followed, this world would be a pretty dang good place to live. It teaches how husbands and wives should love each other. It obviously contains the history of the world (if you believe it ), and the entire reason for our faith. Well, I mean there is no NT without the OT. What I mean is that all those strict laws don't apply. All the "thou shalt not" and the "thou shalt" commands. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law. Therefore it is done, don't have to go through those ceremonies again. There are 3 banks of laws in the OT, this basically sums them up:
MORAL: Applies to all people. Duration: Ends when "heaven and earth pass away".
CEREMONIAL: Applies to all believers. Duration: From Adam's fall until Christ's death.
CIVIL: Applies to all Israelites and strangers in the land. Duration: From the time of Moses until the dispersion of the Jews.
[continued on next thread ... ]
Watching made a good point, which applies to ANY faith. Simply that, yes, most religions think they are the only one, got it. But, if any person believes their faith to be wholly 100% true to the bone, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to "accept" any other faith. Some people would tell me, "dude, I don't want to hear you, stop pushing your beliefs on me". But by the same token, I wouldn't let some other faith into my house who tries to indoctrinate me either.
There is no acceptance.
Now, "tolerance" is another thing. It can only go so far. I can tolerate somebody from another religion wearing some kind of vudu head gear walking around the mall. But I wouldn't tolerate them building a shrine there. I mean, you know what I mean? It's like, people can go around in school doing/saying/wearing whatever they want. But Christians can't have the 10 commandments, or wear a shirt that says "Jesus lives" or whatever. Have to remove "God" from the national anthem. Can't say a prayer over lunch food (which it desperately needs ). So who is the intolerant one?
Sometimes I read the news and wonder, who is intolerant? Seems to me everybody is intolerant of Christianity. Of course that is a big statement, but "sometimes" it feels like it. SOMETIMES! lol
Anyway that's off the point. I just think it's true that if a person of a certain faith who believes 100% in their faith, there can be no acceptance. There can be no acknowledgment of another "way".
If a person DOES accept other faiths, they obviously have little faith in their own, and they really don't know what "truth" to go by. Can't really say "the only truth is no truth." If there is any truth at all, then it is an absolute truth, and it would not be a wasted life spent trying to find it.
It's like somebody saying "I don't believe in absolutes" and you say "you really believe that?" and he says "absolutely". lol. Like saying "their are absolutely no absolutes". Huh?
Atheism is a faith, or religion as well, it's the belief in no God. Since most would say God is not provable, or that He isn't observable in science, it can also be fair to say that whether you actively believe IN a god, or actively REFUSE to believe in one, they can be equal in their faith. You have faith that god exists, or have faith that there isn't one. It's still a choice.
Just because there are a LOT of religions, doesn't mean the conclusion is you shouldn't believe. It's like, I go to the store to buy cheese and see 50 different kinds. That doesn't mean I should walk out and decide there must be no cheese.
Instead, I think the plethora of religions must mean one thing, there must be SOME kind of higher, spiritual power. Think about it. People are MADE to worship things, and they always gravitate to worshiping something bigger then themselves. A big one of course is money. Other times it can just be things, or athletes, or movie stars, or whatever the case may be. There is not one human on earth who is born who doesn't naturally gravitate to wanting to place something in high honor, even to the point of worship. A Christian would say God "wired" us that way. Because that's what we were meant for. But sadly that worshiping spirit is spent on many other things in life.
If a person walks into some random church where people are singing songs and maybe raising their hands or swaying side to side, people would say they are weird. But is that not much different worship then going to a rock concert where people are, very similarly, worshiping the band, raising their hands, swaying side to side and utterly getting "into" that band? It's worship, and people were meant to do it.
So by that token, even the most remote, outcast, people in the world, have gravitated to worshiping an unseen being. So I think the vastness of Deity worship gives greater evidence to the fact that their must BE something?
And Spike, I know what you mean about how a lot of religions could really be worshiping the same God, but maybe with a different name, if that's what you said, or meant, at some point in this thread. But anyhoo, that's valid, maybe they are, but maybe they don't know God fully? In other words, it would be like getting married but the only thing you have of your wife is like a foot or hand. Maybe it is God, but they don't have the whole God, the whole understanding of who He is and what He's about and what He's done on earth. Perhaps their view of God is some strict totalitarian, where if they don't do their rituals, God with strike.
Or perhaps their view is that God is a big jolly Santa Claus in the sky, looking down with big rosy red cheeks and will ultimately let most people into heaven just cause they were "basically good".
Our view of God is not one which "helps us". Our view is not one that allows EVERYBODY into heaven just based on a relative better-then-the-next-guy scale. Our view is not that we ourselves will ascend in life to become gods ourselves. Our view is not that He abandoned us down here to figure things out with a muddled and incomprehensible "word", and will judge us in the end based on whether we figured out the puzzle or not.
Our view of God is that He is Lord of lords and King of kings. He sits on the throne, holding the universe in the palm of his hand. And is, in all things, sovereign. He is THAT greatly big, and also greatly small that he takes care of even the lowliest things.
Mathew 28-30 "And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin......if God so clothe the grass of the field.....". God has his hand on even the smallest of details, and knows the number of hairs on your head. So no, I don't he just abandoned us here to figure things out.
Our view of God is that He is both great and small. Both loving AND just. Neither overrides the other, and is quite as you said Spike, a "balance". It can't be said of God that he will let people in heaven cause they had pretty good lives. Even though it sounds loving, it's not, because God is also JUST, and CANNOT tolerate sin which must be judged. And God said what happens when you sin in Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Wow, there is the gospel summed up
I won't preach, I'm trying to say what our view of God is. This view of God as laid out in the Bible, puts God in a very high place. One in which we simply can't rationalize Him down to a stature which brings us up higher even in our spiritual state. It's God who "was, and is, and is to come", and Malachi 3:6 which says "For I am the LORD, I change not;". God would have to change every time he allows or didn't allow someone into Heaven, because He is judging relatively. He would have to have no standards to go by, just a "you were pretty good". In order for God to never change, He would have to have extremely absolute laws governing even His own behavior. Now this could be fulfilled, for example, if EVERY sin were laid out like a list, and if you break less then 4 a day, you're in. That would be an absolute, unchanging law. But that's not what the Bible says. It says just that, you sin, you die. You break the law, you go to jail, forever. That is an absolute law, and it doesn't mean He's unloving, it means He is JUST, and righteous, and unchanging. His Love gave a way out. That's all I'll say about that.
As you can see, a Christian perspective of God doesn't help us much, it's not an easy faith. And God did say "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.". And "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:". Those statements obviously throw out views of God which make Him to be a big push over. A "pie in the sky", and "jolly saint Nick". It's a healthy FEAR of God that begins your wisdom. You don't fear God if you are not even worried about your own eternal safety. Unless of course you just don't believe in that kind of afterlife, which many do. But that is our view in any case.
Oh yea, and no I don't mean to throw out all the OT, lol. It has way to much good stuff. It contains the prophesies which Jesus fulfilled. In contains the Psalms and Proverbs, two books that if every human followed, this world would be a pretty dang good place to live. It teaches how husbands and wives should love each other. It obviously contains the history of the world (if you believe it ), and the entire reason for our faith. Well, I mean there is no NT without the OT. What I mean is that all those strict laws don't apply. All the "thou shalt not" and the "thou shalt" commands. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law. Therefore it is done, don't have to go through those ceremonies again. There are 3 banks of laws in the OT, this basically sums them up:
MORAL: Applies to all people. Duration: Ends when "heaven and earth pass away".
CEREMONIAL: Applies to all believers. Duration: From Adam's fall until Christ's death.
CIVIL: Applies to all Israelites and strangers in the land. Duration: From the time of Moses until the dispersion of the Jews.
[continued on next thread ... ]