AMD aims to catch up to Nvidia's DLSS with "neural supersampling"

[zohaibahd]

Something to look forward to: Thanks to its DLSS tech, which has become something of a gold standard, Nvidia has always led the charge when it comes to upscaling and denoising techniques for boosting performance in demanding ray-traced game scenes. But AMD hasn't been sitting idle – Team Red has steadily improved its own FSR upscaling tech, and according to a new official blog post, the company is taking things to the next level.

The latest FSR 3.1 release this year brought significantly improved stability over previous versions. However, there's still room for improvement with denoising path-traced frames.

Path tracing, which uses raytracing for all lighting calculations, is hugely computationally intensive. To achieve real-time path tracing performance, the number of light ray samples calculated per pixel has to be drastically lowered. There's just one shortcoming: it introduces noise in the form of incomplete illumination data that needs to be cleaned up.

We've already seen how well Nvidia's DLSS handles games like Cyberpunk 2077 and Alan Wake II with path tracing enabled, thanks to techniques like Ray Reconstruction to remove sampling noise. Meanwhile, AMD seems to rely more on game-integrated denoisers which do a satisfactory job but can't match Nvidia's AI-powered prowess. That's because, unlike DLSS, FSR does not rely on AI or machine learning. Instead, it uses a combination of spatial and temporal upscaling.

That may change soon based on a recent AMD post. It says the company's current research efforts are centered around enabling real-time path tracing on its RDNA GPU architecture using AI neural networks.

Specifically, the innovation AMD is working on is a single neural network model that combines upscaling and denoising into one step – simultaneously reconstructing complete scene details while also removing noise.

"We are actively researching neural techniques for Monte Carlo denoising with the goal of moving towards real-time path tracing on RDNA GPUs," notes the company.

The goal is to enable "a neural supersampling and denoising technique which generates high quality denoised and supersampled images at higher display resolution than render resolution for real-time path tracing with a single neural network."

There's no indication of when we can expect this technology to come out. It's also unclear if it will work across all RDNA generations or just on future RDNA 4 and newer GPUs. The most likely scenario is that this neural denoising magic may be part of an FSR 4 release, perhaps even in a limited form.

Also unknown is exactly how AMD plans on implementing it. So far, FSR's biggest selling point has been its universal compatibility, but this could change if the feature requires specific RDNA hardware. Nonetheless, if it all pans out, a future version of FSR could help AMD finally catch up to Nvidia's DLSS.

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AMD aims to catch up to Nvidia's DLSS with "neural supersampling"

 

[yRaz]

Here is a simple solution, make mostly the same, I bought they're going to throw away years of development, but only require AMD hardware for the "quality" setting. That, or just have a "soft" on and off switch where it will take advantage of RDNA acceleration if an AMD card is detected.

 

[kiwigraeme]

Given we are not even close to real time ray tracing in any std scene. One of the pitfalls of current capitalistic practices is limiting access of others and different solutions. Unless the tech is so essential it has to be made available for reasonable fees . We have all seen the rise of patent trolls, who sold desire is max greed
Anyway it's a shame AMD and Nvidia can't work together more -maybe they do. Microsoft , Apple, Google seem to mostly be able to work out deals -yes I know they not directly compete as much . they have to oversee the whole systems and they all have huge patent chests .

I suppose it's up to Microsoft to set the stds, but they are bringing their on solutions to, to things like AI upscaling

 

[Manoa]

Seriusly ? now ? years after nvidea alredy stoled all the market ? that a joke right ?

 

[Burty117]

Welcome to 2018 AMD, maybe some good progress will come of this.

I really enjoyed Cyberpunk with Path Tracing, the lighting not only looks amazing and gives a lot of scenes a very realistic feel, it’s pretty unflappable as well, places where normal fake lighting fails (bins in an alleyway, under stairs, any reflective materials) Path Tracing just doesn’t get anything wrong purely due to how it works.

Would be great to finally start bringing some serious Path Tracing chops in the AMD camp, next gen consoles might even be able to handle it.

 

[dangh]

Very happy with that info, planning to get new amg gpu next year and just hope they will enable it on Linux as well without any delays.

 

[purpleduggy]

"AMD seems to rely more on game-integrated denoisers which do a satisfactory job but can't match Nvidia's AI-powered prowess. That's because, unlike DLSS, FSR does not rely on AI or machine learning."

Inaccurate. Fluid Motion Frames 2 and FSR3.1 are AI / Machine learning based. Fluid Motion Frames 2 is superior to DLSS for now. Over 90 FPS in Cyberpunk 4K maxed out on a 7600XT with Fluid Motion Frames 2. 30FPS with it off. Threefold increase in performance. FMF2 is gonna give a huge performance boost on consoles. Also on Steam Deck the threefold increase with FMF2 is a massive deal.

 

[takaozo]

AMD Radeon division, playing catch-up game since 2006!

Yeah let's render at 720p and strech it to 4K, apply some filters copy some frames and call this progress.
Ehh and almost forgot, price midrange cards at $700...

 

[VemigoAmigo]

Talk is cheap, lets see it.

Won't consider an AMD GPU before they can match DLDSR, DLAA, DLSS and Reflex.

Don't care at all for Ray Tracing.

 

[Burty117]

Fluid Motion Frames 2 and FSR3.1 are AI / Machine learning based. Fluid Motion Frames 2 is superior to DLSS for now. Over 90 FPS in Cyberpunk 4K maxed out on a 7600XT with Fluid Motion Frames 2. 30FPS with it off. Threefold increase in performance. FMF2 is gonna give a huge performance boost on consoles. Also on Steam Deck the threefold increase with FMF2 is a massive deal.

That must feel terrible, my experience with Frame Generation has been, if the core framerate isn't at least 60fps, then it feels horrible, almost slow motion, it may look smoother, but it feels like sliding on ice.

 

[Starfals]

Seriusly ? now ? years after nvidea alredy stoled all the market ? that a joke right ?

Better late than never, also... AMD is not out of the market or dead. Most people here buy AMD cards cus they offer more Vram and are cheaper. A lot cheaper than Nvidias cards. Simple fact for my country and our stores. You get more FPS, for a lot cheaper on the budget. Im also team Nvidia, I never owned an AMD card and I never will. Im just stating facts. Nvidia is not winning in every price bracket.

 

[zx8086]

"AMD seems to rely more on game-integrated denoisers which do a satisfactory job but can't match Nvidia's AI-powered prowess. That's because, unlike DLSS, FSR does not rely on AI or machine learning."

Inaccurate. Fluid Motion Frames 2 and FSR3.1 are AI / Machine learning based. Fluid Motion Frames 2 is superior to DLSS for now. Over 90 FPS in Cyberpunk 4K maxed out on a 7600XT with Fluid Motion Frames 2. 30FPS with it off. Threefold increase in performance. FMF2 is gonna give a huge performance boost on consoles. Also on Steam Deck the threefold increase with FMF2 is a massive deal.

I don't think your "maxed out" means what it really should mean. My 4070 can just about play it CP2077 RT Path Traced but only with with FG/DLSS Balanced enabled and some trade offs in the settings. Somehow I don't believe FMF2 is became a kind of magic dust overnight. So, is it "maxed out, but without RT"?

 

[Burty117]

I don't think your "maxed out" means what it really should mean. My 4070 can just about play it CP2077 RT Path Traced but only with with FG/DLSS Balanced enabled and some trade offs in the settings. Somehow I don't believe FMF2 is became a kind of magic dust overnight. So, is it "maxed out, but without RT"?

I read the comment wrong, I thought it was 7800XT and I could see that doing 30fps close to maxed out with a lot of upscaling, did not realise they actually said 7600XT.

As someone who has a 7600XT, I can 100% confirm, it cannot path trace basically at all, let alone 30fps.

 

[VemigoAmigo]

Very happy with that info, planning to get new amg gpu next year and just hope they will enable it on Linux as well without any delays.

Good luck with Linux gaming if you expect new features to come fast, or to games running at all.

 

[dangh]

Good luck with Linux gaming if you expect new features to come fast, or to games running at all.

Thank you, I have all my games running very well on my tumbleweed and it seems I'm not lacking amd features up to now. Guess I'm pretty lucky, or just computer literate.

 

[VemigoAmigo]

Thank you, I have all my games running very well on my tumbleweed and it seems I'm not lacking amd features up to now. Guess I'm pretty lucky, or just computer literate.

Sure you do. All your old and dated games.

Good luck playing new AAA games using new hardware on Linux. Terrible performance 99% of the time.

Many games won't even start in Linux, or has terrible performance and crashes compared to Windows. Also, most multiplayer games won't work due to anti cheat. Some will even soft- or hard ban you.

Please stop saying Linux is an actual Windows alternative for PC gaming. This is only true if you are:

1) A casual gamer, willing to settle with much lower performance and audio issues and crashing
2) Plays old games that demand very little

PC game developers have close to zero focus on Linux gaming, so obviously it is not the best OS for gaming.

And yes, I have tried tons of Linux distros over the years, and still test new ones for gaming. Absolutely not an alternative if you have high demands for PC gaming.

You can play Tux Racer tho...

 

[dangh]

Sure you do. All your old and dated games.

Good luck playing new AAA games using new hardware on Linux. Terrible performance 99% of the time.

Many games won't even start in Linux, or has terrible performance and crashes compared to Windows. Also, most multiplayer games won't work due to anti cheat. Some will even soft- or hard ban you.

Please stop saying Linux is an actual Windows alternative for PC gaming. This is only true if you are:

1) A casual gamer, willing to settle with much lower performance and audio issues and crashing
2) Plays old games that demand very little

PC game developers have close to zero focus on Linux gaming, so obviously it is not the best OS for gaming.

And yes, I have tried tons of Linux distros over the years, and still test new ones for gaming. Absolutely not an alternative if you have high demands for PC gaming.

You can play Tux Racer tho...

That is very incorrect. Nearly all new games works perfectly fine on newest kernel, often better than on windows. I have no issues with Cyberpunk with path tracing enabled, Mechwarrior 5 clans runs great, all Sony releases works perfectly, tw: warhammer 3 and all tw other are perfect, Space Marine 2, and I still have to find something not working. Sure there are some titles, but 99% of them works with the performance similar to Windows one, or within a single percent digit of performance difference.

Most multiplayer works perfectly on Linux; only few (but larger) titles does not, not because it is not possible, but because of predatory anticheats ran on ring 0... if someone likes to have EA knowing everything you do on your pc and help them train their ai model then it is good I guess
Many multiplayer games like WoT, war thunder, hell let loose, diablo 4 and majority of another multiplayer games works perfectly fine.

Linux _is_ alternative for Windows games. Majority of the modern games works perfectly fine, often with better performance than on Windows, majority of the multiplayer games as well.
Focus of the developers doesnt matter as the only thing they have to do is to write a good code. if they do so then there is no difference on what system are you running it.

The only things potential gamer needs to check if a game he likes is not the exceptional case which wont work on Linux due to specific anticheat technology or a title specific issues. Come of MS games are problematic and might require tinkering.

And yes, there is many distros and that doesnt matter. Distros are only a flavour, what matter is kernel, and that is the same in nearly all of them. If you have an updated kernel then you dont care how the distro is called. But yes, it requires some basic computer literacy. Surely idf someone do not know how to install windows should not be installing linux either.

And thanks for mentioning tux racing (that clarifies that your knowledge of linux stopped at late '90s), I will be playing the latest titles though...
vs windows
ghost of tsushima:

cyberpunk:

space marine 2:

and in the end a good balanced video to see:

 

[VemigoAmigo]

That is very incorrect. Nearly all new games works perfectly fine on newest kernel, often better than on windows. I have no issues with Cyberpunk with path tracing enabled, Mechwarrior 5 clans runs great, all Sony releases works perfectly, tw: warhammer 3 and all tw other are perfect, Space Marine 2, and I still have to find something not working. Sure there are some titles, but 99% of them works with the performance similar to Windows one, or within a single percent digit of performance difference.

Most multiplayer works perfectly on Linux; only few (but larger) titles does not, not because it is not possible, but because of predatory anticheats ran on ring 0... if someone likes to have EA knowing everything you do on your pc and help them train their ai model then it is good I guess
Many multiplayer games like WoT, war thunder, hell let loose, diablo 4 and majority of another multiplayer games works perfectly fine.

Linux _is_ alternative for Windows games. Majority of the modern games works perfectly fine, often with better performance than on Windows, majority of the multiplayer games as well.
Focus of the developers doesnt matter as the only thing they have to do is to write a good code. if they do so then there is no difference on what system are you running it.

The only things potential gamer needs to check if a game he likes is not the exceptional case which wont work on Linux due to specific anticheat technology or a title specific issues. Come of MS games are problematic and might require tinkering.

And yes, there is many distros and that doesnt matter. Distros are only a flavour, what matter is kernel, and that is the same in nearly all of them. If you have an updated kernel then you dont care how the distro is called. But yes, it requires some basic computer literacy. Surely idf someone do not know how to install windows should not be installing linux either.

And thanks for mentioning tux racing (that clarifies that your knowledge of linux stopped at late '90s), I will be playing the latest titles though...
vs windows
ghost of tsushima:

cyberpunk:

space marine 2:

and in the end a good balanced video to see:

I have seen all this before, and it is called cherrypicking games that actually run.

Drivers are mediocore for Linux and PC developers has no focus on Linux. So yeah, tons of games run worse or won't even start.

If you take 25 of the most popular games, you will see that Linux is not even close to delivering the same level of performance.

Linux is only an alternative if you play old and dated games, on dated hardware. If you play new and demanding AAA games, using high refresh rate monitors with VRR and current gen GPUs, you won't get anywhere close to the same performance as Windows.

I have already tried Linux gaming multiple times. I know some games will run, but they don't run better in 99 out of 100 cases and many PC games won't even start.

Linux is many many years away from being a Windows alternative when it comes to gaming. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Also Nvidia makes the best GPUs today, by far and they don't really focus on Linux ebcause 99.9% will use Windows, so you are stuck with AMD GPUs - which are in a terrible state right now - using open source drivers.

Titus is biased as always. He picked games that actually run very well in Linux for that comparison. Nothing new. Windows has 10.000+ games.

No one with actual knowledge about high-end PC gaming will pick Linux as OS yet. Might change in 5 years, might not. We will see, but right now you will see Windows listed in game requirements for a reason. Linux gets no focus or support at all.

I have 20+ years of Linux experience, for servers. That is what Linux is good for. Not gaming.

 

[Shalimar]

Talk is cheap, lets see it.

Won't consider an AMD GPU before they can match DLDSR, DLAA, DLSS and Reflex.

Don't care at all for Ray Tracing.

So you continue giving money to two grade who continues to **** over everybody instead of somebody that actually works to actually help you consumer. Yep, you got really paying attention to what the hell is going on.

Not to mention, what AMD is doing is managing to compete with giants like Nvidia Intel. Meanwhile, they're a fraction of the size.

 

[Bamda]

Sure you do. All your old and dated games.

Good luck playing new AAA games using new hardware on Linux. Terrible performance 99% of the time.

Many games won't even start in Linux, or has terrible performance and crashes compared to Windows. Also, most multiplayer games won't work due to anti cheat. Some will even soft- or hard ban you.

Please stop saying Linux is an actual Windows alternative for PC gaming. This is only true if you are:

1) A casual gamer, willing to settle with much lower performance and audio issues and crashing
2) Plays old games that demand very little

PC game developers have close to zero focus on Linux gaming, so obviously it is not the best OS for gaming.

And yes, I have tried tons of Linux distros over the years, and still test new ones for gaming. Absolutely not an alternative if you have high demands for PC gaming.

You can play Tux Racer tho...

And yet there are Millions of us playing new AAA games on Linux.

 

[VemigoAmigo]

And yet there are Millions of us playing new AAA games on Linux.

Oh really, how does, lets say, Dragon Age Veilguard run? 99 out of 100 new AAA games are simply not running or run like crap, crashing or issues in general.

Why do you think Windows is listed in REQUIREMENTS? Developers have no to little focus on how the game runs in Linux, meaning optimization is none-existing = WORSE PERF.

Who buys high-end gaming hardware and run Linux, is what I am saying? Makes literally NO SENSE. Linux is for servers and I used it for 20+ years here. I also use Linux on a laptop, however, on my gaming rig? Absolutely no. Maybe in 5-10 years, maybe not.

 

[VemigoAmigo]

So you continue giving money to two grade who continues to **** over everybody instead of somebody that actually works to actually help you consumer. Yep, you got really paying attention to what the hell is going on.

Not to mention, what AMD is doing is managing to compete with giants like Nvidia Intel. Meanwhile, they're a fraction of the size.

I buy high-end hardware, and AMD has no high-end GPU, so the choice is easy.

Besides their features are terrible compared to what Nvidia offers. Can't live without DLDSR, DLAA, DLSS. Improves all games.

 

[VemigoAmigo]

And yet there are Millions of us playing new AAA games on Linux.

Millions you say, proof?

Who in their right mind buys a high-end gaming PC, installs Linux on it and go play all new AAA games on release? Lets me guess, no-one.

All AAA games has PC REQUIREMENTS you know. OS is listed here. Windows.

Meaning that developers don't care for one bit how the game will run on Linux and most of the time, performance is way worse. Most multiplayer games don't work at all due to anti cheat. Mods don't work. Etc.

Linux is TERRIBLE if gaming is your main focus and this is even more correct when we are talking brand new and demanding games. Why would anyone bother? Just do a custom Windows install and get blazing performance with zero issues.

I am a demanding gamer. 7800X3D + PBO, 4090 + OC, 1440p 360 Hz Fast IPS + 4K/UHD at 240 Hz QD-OLED. I am getting insane gaming performance and you won't be able to match this in Linux at all.

Not a single demanding gamer would like to run games in Linux. If you are a low-expectation gamer, aiming for 30-60 fps, then Linux might work for some, if you accept that not all games will run.

I demand 120 fps minimum and I also demand that 100% of my game catalog to work and work flawlessly. Linux is not an option.

 

[Bamda]

Oh really, how does, lets say, Dragon Age Veilguard run? 99 out of 100 new AAA games are simply not running or run like crap, crashing or issues in general.

Why do you think Windows is listed in REQUIREMENTS? Developers have no to little focus on how the game runs in Linux, meaning optimization is none-existing = WORSE PERF.

Who buys high-end gaming hardware and run Linux, is what I am saying? Makes literally NO SENSE. Linux is for servers and I used it for 20+ years here. I also use Linux on a laptop, however, on my gaming rig? Absolutely no. Maybe in 5-10 years, maybe not.

Fine.

 

[purpleduggy]

I read the comment wrong, I thought it was 7800XT and I could see that doing 30fps close to maxed out with a lot of upscaling, did not realise they actually said 7600XT.

As someone who has a 7600XT, I can 100% confirm, it cannot path trace basically at all, let alone 30fps.

Path tracing on rtx is a gimmick that I turn off for more frames on my rtx4090. It doesn't look that much better. Do an a/b test for yourself and you will see. Visually it's unnoticeable. There are far better ways of doing it like nanite or lumen from Unreal engine 5.4 and baking the lighting into a reflection map. Even if you have an RTX4090, having 240Hz refresh rate is far more important. Getting a better framerate is far more important. And yes 7600XT can do 90fps at 4k without RT on FMF2.