AMD's upcoming 3D V-Cache shown to improve bandwidth with minimal latency increase

Jimmy2x

Posts: 83   +8
Staff
Highly anticipated: Speculation around AMD's new 3D V-Cache technology has swirled ever since Dr. Lisa Su gave us a sneak peek at Computex 2021. Since then, AMD and tech enthusiasts have remained cautiously optimistic regarding claims that the new chiplet-stacking approach can yield substantial performance gains with minimal impact to latency, responsiveness, and overall functionality. A recent test of an EPYC processor with V-Cache is giving early indication that AMD's performance uplift claims may just hold true.

No one was quite sure what to expect when AMD announced their 3D V-Cache technology at Computex last summer. While some enthusiasts saw the substantial increase in cache as an exciting development, others in the community found themselves upset that the new offerings would not offer substantial increases in clock speed, improvements in power draw, etc. Last Friday tech news outlet Chips and Cheese published results of their initial testing with one of AMD's new Milan-X processors with 3D V-Cache, the server-oriented EPYC 7V73X. And so far, things look promising.

According to the site's summary, AMD has managed to substantially increase a processor's cache size (768MB) in comparison to the previous Milan family of processors (256MB). Testing by Chips and Cheese reports impressive performance from the stacked CPU and much larger L3 cache without incurring any significant increase to cache and memory latency. Initial testing shows the latency penalty keeping the increase somewhere between three to four cycles.

If these preliminary findings hold true for AMD's upcoming AM4 and AM5 releases, such as the Ryzen 7 5800X3D, then the chipmaker will undoubtedly continue exploring the possibilities and benefits associated with 3D chip stacking.

AMD's current 3D stacking technology involves bonding a single V-Cache chiplet to a processor's existing core complex die (CCD) and cache. As the technology matures It may be possible for future architectures to further expand their L3 cache capabilities using additional chiplets.

We'll have to wait and see what the future holds, but if the EPYC-based results are any indication of what is possible, then AMD could deliver another sizeable performance increase with their next round of CPUs.

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Sausagemeat

Posts: 1,596   +1,413
Right now Alder Lake is both faster and cheaper than Ryzen 5000 so there is really very little reason to be buying AMD. I’m concerned that the only part getting this tech will be the 5800X which is already $450. So does that mean AMD are about to launch an 8 core 5800X3D for around $500? And what if it’s still worse than the 12700K?

Remember the good old days when AMD was actually cheaper than Intel? They really are laughing at consumers these days. No quad cores or cheap SKUs, $300 for a 6 core CPU. $450 for an 8 core. Who the hell do they think they are!?
 

Dimitriid

Posts: 2,084   +3,986
The 5800X3D is a very interest case: For once I don't think AMD wanted it to exists at all, not as basically just the 8/16 sku and nothing else for now.

So there's 2 core possibilities here

1) AMD wanted a wider release on more SKUs but it's just not possible to get the yields right now to support anything else (And maybe even just a paper launch for 5800X3D) This could be due to new tech that's not mature enough, just not enough TSMC allocation at this time or a combo of both this things

2) AMD wanted to just wait until they were ready to just jump to Ryzen 4/7000 series but again due to circumstances being what they are for allocation, tech not being ready or both, couldn't get AM5 and the full new platform ready soon enough.

Either case it's clear that their overall strategy *did* take into account intel being able to bounce back eventually as it's happening with Alder Lake for the first time in many years, but now that they have to compete with Apple (And apparently intel too soon as well) for TSMC allocation means that what was their core advantage, a superior fab node while intel had terrible struggles with their in-house node suffering many years of delays, it's kind of turning around the other way: while TSMC is still ahead of intel when it comes to fabrication today (Don't @ me: Alder Lake is just not as power efficient for the performance as the best TSMC has to offer which is not AMD by the way, it's Apple's M1s) the gap is fully negated by the fact that AMD not only has global constrains but also heavy competitors that might even fully push them out in the long run.
 

Nobina

Posts: 3,724   +4,099
Intels 12th gen is really good at productivity, in gaming, who cares, the difference is minor and we're moving away from 1080p where CPUs matter less.

My guess would be this 3D cache technology will slightly improve gaming performance which won't be enough to soldify AMD as the king, depending on the price ofcourse.

Where Intel lacks is power consumption and thermals, both of which people don't seem to care about all that much.
 

yRaz

Posts: 4,334   +4,966
Right now Alder Lake is both faster and cheaper than Ryzen 5000 so there is really very little reason to be buying AMD. I’m concerned that the only part getting this tech will be the 5800X which is already $450. So does that mean AMD are about to launch an 8 core 5800X3D for around $500? And what if it’s still worse than the 12700K?

Remember the good old days when AMD was actually cheaper than Intel? They really are laughing at consumers these days. No quad cores or cheap SKUs, $300 for a 6 core CPU. $450 for an 8 core. Who the hell do they think they are!?

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but Alder lake has one major problem that actually does make it a more expensive platform. DDR4 motherboard availability is really low forcing anyone who wants to upgrade to the platform to go with DDR5. And while Alder is the faster CPU, it isn't anything groundbreaking
 

Lionvibez

Posts: 2,621   +2,383
Right now Alder Lake is both faster and cheaper than Ryzen 5000 so there is really very little reason to be buying AMD. I’m concerned that the only part getting this tech will be the 5800X which is already $450. So does that mean AMD are about to launch an 8 core 5800X3D for around $500? And what if it’s still worse than the 12700K?

Remember the good old days when AMD was actually cheaper than Intel? They really are laughing at consumers these days. No quad cores or cheap SKUs, $300 for a 6 core CPU. $450 for an 8 core. Who the hell do they think they are!?

There is plenty of reason for the thousands of people still on the AM4 socket. And Good old days AMD was forced too be cheaper now that they have a competitive product that is no longer the case. You know its like they have a business to run with Shareholders.....
 

Sausagemeat

Posts: 1,596   +1,413
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but Alder lake has one major problem that actually does make it a more expensive platform. DDR4 motherboard availability is really low forcing anyone who wants to upgrade to the platform to go with DDR5. And while Alder is the faster CPU, it isn't anything groundbreaking
You are incorrect. I just looked it up and where I live in the U.K. you can buy a Z690 DDR4 board for roughly the same money as an x570 board. Except it’s better as it has thunderbolt and PCIe5. And the silicon is cheaper. So yes Alder lake costs less. You can also get cheap B660 boards today even on Amazon next day delivery. And sure it isn’t groundbreaking, it’s just faster and cheaper. What more do you want?

Intel have just beaten AMD. It took AMD over a decade to do this to Intel. I think a lot of people have been caught off guard to see Intel this competitive so quickly.

Of course if AMD wound their prices back in to what they used to be pre-5000 series they would potentially become the better buy. But these are greedy multibillion tech corporations. What do you expect?
 
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theruck

Posts: 539   +341
If they are marketing it now with some lattency nobody cares about then it will be a failure same as was the 3Dnow
 

Gimp65

Posts: 67   +150
Right now Alder Lake is both faster and cheaper than Ryzen 5000 so there is really very little reason to be buying AMD. I’m concerned that the only part getting this tech will be the 5800X which is already $450. So does that mean AMD are about to launch an 8 core 5800X3D for around $500? And what if it’s still worse than the 12700K?

Remember the good old days when AMD was actually cheaper than Intel? They really are laughing at consumers these days. No quad cores or cheap SKUs, $300 for a 6 core CPU. $450 for an 8 core. Who the hell do they think they are!?
Judging by your post, I think the real question is who do you think you are ?

Why would AMD lower prices to just satisfies you, they got much lower margins on low end CPU's and GPU's, the yields/defect rate on TSMC's process is so low these days, it's not like the old days. AMD is still tiny compared to Intel financially. If anything it's AMD that need the funds and not intel.
 

Gimp65

Posts: 67   +150
You are incorrect. I just looked it up and where I live in the U.K. you can buy a Z690 DDR4 board for roughly the same money as an x570 board. Except it’s better as it has thunderbolt and PCIe5. And the silicon is cheaper. So yes Alder lake costs less. You can also get cheap B660 boards today even on Amazon next day delivery. And sure it isn’t groundbreaking, it’s just faster and cheaper. What more do you want?

Intel have just beaten AMD. It took AMD over a decade to do this to Intel. I think a lot of people have been caught off guard to see Intel this competitive so quickly.

Of course if AMD wound their prices back in to what they used to be pre-5000 series they would potentially become the better buy. But these are greedy multibillion tech corporations. What do you expect?
You do realize how small AMD is financially compared to Intel right ? they are tiny in comparison.
They need all the funds possible to keep up R/D to be able to compete with intel.

AMD as a whole isnt anywhere near beaten by Intel product wise, it's the other way around. The most important market for both company's is the DC market, and here AMD dominates Intel brutally in raw performance and performance per watt, and that's a good thing for you as a consumer in the long run. At some point prices will stabilize, but the time is not now.
 

y6Tq2RGXEejb

Posts: 47   +67
Right now Alder Lake is both faster and cheaper than Ryzen 5000 so there is really very little reason to be buying AMD. I’m concerned that the only part getting this tech will be the 5800X which is already $450. So does that mean AMD are about to launch an 8 core 5800X3D for around $500? And what if it’s still worse than the 12700K?

Remember the good old days when AMD was actually cheaper than Intel? They really are laughing at consumers these days. No quad cores or cheap SKUs, $300 for a 6 core CPU. $450 for an 8 core. Who the hell do they think they are!?

Welcome to a healthy, competitive market. Intel stagnated, AMD struck when Intel was deep in a hole, and now Intel has finally made a recovery and is forced to compete properly... which is what they are doing with Alder Lake. Everything is exactly as it should be, and AMD has to make the next move. Will they pull it off without Jim Keller? We shall see.
 

Sausagemeat

Posts: 1,596   +1,413
You do realize how small AMD is financially compared to Intel right ? they are tiny in comparison.
They need all the funds possible to keep up R/D to be able to compete with intel.

AMD as a whole isnt anywhere near beaten by Intel product wise, it's the other way around. The most important market for both company's is the DC market, and here AMD dominates Intel brutally in raw performance and performance per watt, and that's a good thing for you as a consumer in the long run. At some point prices will stabilize, but the time is not now.
lmao, I don’t care how small AMD is compared to Intel. And users shouldn’t either. People should care about products and prices. Right now Intel sells you faster products for less money. Btw, AMD are making billions in profit, they have the highest paid female ceo in the world. Trying to make them out as some kind of poor person who needs our help is just a laughably inaccurate.

You seem irked that I had the audacity to call AMDs pricing out. I’m not sorry, of course I don’t expect AMD to cut prices just for me. But it is ok to criticise AMDs prices as a consumer. Not sure if you’re aware of this…

Also you are incorrect, Intel still dominates the marketplace. They have a huge market share compared to AMD. That’s why they are worth more billions.…
 
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Sausagemeat

Posts: 1,596   +1,413
Welcome to a healthy, competitive market. Intel stagnated, AMD struck when Intel was deep in a hole, and now Intel has finally made a recovery and is forced to compete properly... which is what they are doing with Alder Lake. Everything is exactly as it should be, and AMD has to make the next move. Will they pull it off without Jim Keller? We shall see.
Completely agree. Although Intel only went into that hole because AMD basically disappeared completely for a decade. Hopefully AMD remain competitive and beat Intel with Zen 4 and don’t disappear on us all again for 10 years.
 

JCX88

Posts: 10   +7
Right now Alder Lake is both faster and cheaper than Ryzen 5000 so there is really very little reason to be buying AMD. I’m concerned that the only part getting this tech will be the 5800X which is already $450. So does that mean AMD are about to launch an 8 core 5800X3D for around $500? And what if it’s still worse than the 12700K?

Remember the good old days when AMD was actually cheaper than Intel? They really are laughing at consumers these days. No quad cores or cheap SKUs, $300 for a 6 core CPU. $450 for an 8 core. Who the hell do they think they are!?

- 5800x was selling for around $350 for the last few months. 5900x could be found for $450-500 most of the time

- Intel MBs are about $100 more expensive looking at the same models like x570 Aorus and z690 Aorus

That said I do agree intel is a better deal after their Adler lake, especially since they never had an answer to chips like 3900x and 5900x, but now they do. Which is great for everybody
 

Arbie

Posts: 362   +655
No quad cores or cheap SKUs, $300 for a 6 core CPU. $450 for an 8 core. Who the hell do they think they are!?
What do you think Intel would be charging you now for a 6- or 8-core, and on what node, without AMD?

AMD bet the farm, made a miraculous comeback from near-bankruptcy and saved us from an eternity of stagnation and milking by Intel - as the latter made very clear. They aren't villains for trying to build enough cash to withstand their monster competitor's return, stay in business and continue the good work.

I'd pay even a significant "keep AMD in business" premium. But such a thing presently seems to be either modest or negligible because I'm getting top-quality products that continue to surpass Intel in the metrics that matter to me, which include performance per watt.

Everybody should remember what happens if we lose AMD.
 
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Sausagemeat

Posts: 1,596   +1,413
What do you think Intel would be charging you now for a 6- or 8-core, without AMD?

AMD bet the farm, made a miraculous comeback from near-bankruptcy and saved us from an eternity of stagnation and milking by Intel - as the latter made very clear. They aren't villains for trying to build enough cash to withstand their monster competitor's return, stay in business and continue the good work.

I'd pay even a significant "keep AMD in business" premium. But such a thing presently seems to be either modest or negligible because I'm getting top-quality products that continue to surpass Intel in the metrics that matter to me, which include performance per watt.

Everybody should remember what happens if we lose AMD.
AMD can earn customers without pity/charity by being just a little bit less greedy. If they can’t make a profit by cutting prices they deserve to go out of business. As competitors are able to give you more for less. Where I live AMDs 6 core is £269 at the lowest. Intel sell you a faster 6 core in the 12400F for £176 (googled both prices today). AMDs prices are outrageous at this point.

People who spend this much more than they should to keep an American multi billion dollar company alive are as stupid as it gets.
 

Sausagemeat

Posts: 1,596   +1,413
- 5800x was selling for around $350 for the last few months. 5900x could be found for $450-500 most of the time

- Intel MBs are about $100 more expensive looking at the same models like x570 Aorus and z690 Aorus

That said I do agree intel is a better deal after their Adler lake, especially since they never had an answer to chips like 3900x and 5900x, but now they do. Which is great for everybody
Where I live in the U.K. X570 and Z690 are similarly priced, maybe slightly more for z690. But that means the z690 is better value as it has PCIe5 and thunderbolt. It’s also good for next gen chips unlike AM4.

B660 is better equipped than B450 and costs similar. Although you miss out on the overclocking, you don’t seem to be able to oc as much as you used to. Certainly you won’t get much out of a 5000 series part.
 

Theinsanegamer

Posts: 3,317   +5,508
What do you think Intel would be charging you now for a 6- or 8-core, without AMD?

AMD bet the farm, made a miraculous comeback from near-bankruptcy and saved us from an eternity of stagnation and milking by Intel - as the latter made very clear. They aren't villains for trying to build enough cash to withstand their monster competitor's return, stay in business and continue the good work.

I'd pay even a significant "keep AMD in business" premium. But such a thing presently seems to be either modest or negligible because I'm getting top-quality products that continue to surpass Intel in the metrics that matter to me, which include performance per watt.

Everybody should remember what happens if we lose AMD.
"monopoly bad, that justifies AMD fleecing customers and jacking up prices! All hail Lisa Su!"

-This argument taken from r/AMD.

 

Mr Majestyk

Posts: 1,136   +1,034
Funny how people expect AMD to cut prices but they do not demand the same thing of the gargantuan Apple. AMD is not in a position to sell processors at a loss and for all we know Alder Lake is being priced such that Intel is making very little profit, but they have the reserves to do that, AMD does not. It's like MS were selling XBoxs at less than cost to gain market share from Sony back in the early days but again they were large enough to sustain that.

We all want cheap gear, but I'd rather pay $50-199 more for something I'll keep 3-7 years and see AMD profitable and competitive than see them get into a price war they can't afford. People ***** about paying $400 for a CPU and then spend that in booze or clothes probably every couple of weeks. Priorities!
 

Sausagemeat

Posts: 1,596   +1,413
Funny how people expect AMD to cut prices but they do not demand the same thing of the gargantuan Apple. AMD is not in a position to sell processors at a loss and for all we know Alder Lake is being priced such that Intel is making very little profit, but they have the reserves to do that, AMD does not. It's like MS were selling XBoxs at less than cost to gain market share from Sony back in the early days but again they were large enough to sustain that.

We all want cheap gear, but I'd rather pay $50-199 more for something I'll keep 3-7 years and see AMD profitable and competitive than see them get into a price war they can't afford. People ***** about paying $400 for a CPU and then spend that in booze or clothes probably every couple of weeks. Priorities!
2019: Ryzen 5 3600 - 6 cores on the 7nm TSMC process - MSRP $200

2020:Ryzen 5 5600X - 6 cores on the 7nm TSMC process - MSRP $300.

AMD recorded $9.76bn of net profit in 2020.

AMD can reduce its prices, anyone who says they can’t is either dumb or lying. What AMD are doing is trying to improve the average selling price of its stock. This will drive up the market cap and provide big dividends to the board and shareholders. So sure, you can spend hundreds of dollars more for an inferior AMD product. But all you’re doing is lining some execs pocket.
 

hahahanoobs

Posts: 4,309   +2,312
By AMD's own admission, V-cache is expensive and best results were seen with the 8 core. They also said they will only add V-cache to more chips if requested by customers, meaning their claims of up to 15% more fps is closer to single digits more times than not. That means don't hold your breath.

AMD is going to have to do more than allow Zen 3 support on 300 series boards once ADL desktops and laptops hit stores and OEMs and RPL potentially launching before Zen 4.

5600X is $30 more than 12600K in Canada. That's gotta come down.
 
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umbala

Posts: 603   +1,007
AMD can reduce its prices, anyone who says they can’t is either dumb or lying
Oh yeah? Where were you for the ~10 years or so when Intel was charging RIDICULOUS prices for their CPUs because they felt they had no competition? I mean, you're obviously an ultra-Intel shill so I'd love to hear your explanation why AMD should lower their prices now that they're in the driver's seat.

Oh and by the way, Intel is behind by at least one FULL process node now and if AMD keeps going the way they are then Intel won't be catching up any time soon. Shills like you can keep harping on prices and other stupid things, but it won't change the fact that Intel finally has some competition.