Anthropic accuses China's Alibaba of stealing Claude's AI capabilities

[Endymio]

The biggest IP thieves are the US (Operation Paperclip) through the NSA (Perkins) and the Mossad.
Guy Galanti (Mossad) was recently arrested for stealing semiconductor trade secrets from US companies. Where is your faux outrage?

Why spread disinformation? Galanti wasn't "Mossad", nor was he stealing secrets for Israel, but for a Taiwanese company whose owner was also charged. Neither the Taiwanese government nor any other was involved in this crime. Nor is Taipei an authoritarian dictatorship that keeps three million of its own people in slave-labor genocide camps.

If the Chinese are so good at stealing secrets why haven't they reverse engineered ASML machines?

They've been trying. As this link notes, China has tried literally 2,000+ times to steal this ASML tech.

Why not reverse engineer or copy chips rather than license from AMD and try to create their own?

Was that a joke? Their designs are literally cut and pasted from what they've taken from Western firms. Their "licensing" of AMD Zen 1 chips -- by THATIC/Hygon in 2016 -- allowed them to gain access to that IP. Though that venture was short-lived, Hygon still manufactures Zen-derived CPUs today

Don't deny reality. In just *one* single operation, China stole several trillion dollars worth of IP:

Chinese hackers took trillions in intellectual property from about 30 multinational companies

"We're talking about Blueprint diagrams of fighter jets, helicopters, and missiles," Cybereason CEO Lior Div told CBS News.

www.cbsnews.com

China stealing chip designs from Micron:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/technology/china-micron-chips-theft.html

A Chinese engineer stealing AI tech for China's government:

Former Google Engineer Found Guilty of Economic Espionage and Theft of Confidential AI Technology

A federal jury in San Francisco convicted former Google software engineer Linwei Ding, also known as Leon Ding, 38, on seven counts of economic espionage and seven counts of theft of trade secrets for stealing thousands of pages of confidential information containing Google’s trade secrets...

www.justice.gov

BBC reporting on several other Chinese thefts:

Industrial espionage: How China sneaks out America's technology secrets

The true extent of commercial spying is unknown but experts say it is "pervasive".

www.bbc.com

 

[Liranan]

Why spread disinformation? Galanti wasn't "Mossad", nor was he stealing secrets for Israel, but for a Taiwanese company whose owner was also charged. Neither the Taiwanese government nor any other was involved in this crime. Nor is Taipei an authoritarian dictatorship that keeps three million of its own people in slave-labor genocide camps.


They've been trying. As this link notes, China has tried literally 2,000+ times to steal this ASML tech.


Was that a joke? Their designs are literally cut and pasted from what they've taken from Western firms. Their "licensing" of AMD Zen 1 chips -- by THATIC/Hygon in 2016 -- allowed them to gain access to that IP. Though that venture was short-lived, Hygon still manufactures Zen-derived CPUs today

Don't deny reality. In just *one* single operation, China stole several trillion dollars worth of IP:

Chinese hackers took trillions in intellectual property from about 30 multinational companies

"We're talking about Blueprint diagrams of fighter jets, helicopters, and missiles," Cybereason CEO Lior Div told CBS News.

www.cbsnews.com

China stealing chip designs from Micron:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/technology/china-micron-chips-theft.html

A Chinese engineer stealing AI tech for China's government:

Former Google Engineer Found Guilty of Economic Espionage and Theft of Confidential AI Technology

A federal jury in San Francisco convicted former Google software engineer Linwei Ding, also known as Leon Ding, 38, on seven counts of economic espionage and seven counts of theft of trade secrets for stealing thousands of pages of confidential information containing Google’s trade secrets...

www.justice.gov

BBC reporting on several other Chinese thefts:

Industrial espionage: How China sneaks out America's technology secrets

The true extent of commercial spying is unknown but experts say it is "pervasive".

www.bbc.com

They're so good at stealing that they've failed 2000 times and were forced to LICENSE AMD's designs. You prove yourself incorrect.

Galanti was stealing for the Mosssad as extradition to Israel was requested by his government and is either already there or on his way.

All you have is propaganda from proven liars.

 

[trieste1s]

I wonder if you'll still make light of the Chinese theft of trillions of dollars of IP and attempted domination of world industry when you're sitting in a CCP reeducation camp, being trained to stitch sneakers instead of playing Counterstrike.

Storm in a teacup. When USA was newly minted, it engaged in a deliberate campaign to steal industry secrets from Britain. Naivety doesn't help anybody.

 

[scoffer]

I wonder if you'll still make light of the Chinese theft of trillions of dollars of IP and attempted domination of world industry when you're sitting in a CCP reeducation camp, being trained to stitch sneakers instead of playing Counterstrike.

ooops........shill copium.......

 

[Endymio]

They're so good at stealing that they've failed 2000 times and were forced to LICENSE AMD's designs. You prove yourself incorrect.

Was this some absurd joke? Despite all the arrests, the convictions, the trillions of dollars of verified IP theft, you're making the argument that, if they failed at one theft, they must have failed at them all?

At one point in 2021, more than 50% of all the FBI's industrial espionage investigations came from just one country: China. More than all domestic cases and the rest of the world combined. I doubt it's improved.

Galanti was stealing for the Mosssad as extradition to Israel was requested by his government

I actually laughed out loud at this clanger. He was working for the Mossad ... to benefit a Taiwanese company? And who told you Israel requested "his extradition"?

Storm in a teacup. When USA was newly minted, it engaged in a deliberate campaign to steal industry secrets from Britain. Naivety doesn't help anybody.

By your logic, slavery is OK today, because it was commonplace in the 1700s. Care to try that one again? Your analogy is even worse when one realizes that, in the 1700s there were no lnternational laws or treaties protecting intellectual property. Today there are, and China is signatory to those treaties ... yet regularly and incessantly violates them.

 

[Endymio]

25 thousand paying accounts are fake?

Yes, China created 25 thousand fake accounts. I doubt few, if any, actually paid a single penny to Anthropic; they simply signed up, downloaded the required data, and then ignored the subsequent invoices.

The desperate propaganda is of such low quality it's terrible. Anyone can do what they accuse 'China' of doing

Are you working for the CCP, or just a fan of theirs?

You can do it with any model, genius. Recording reasoning and calculating the weight isn't that hard.

It's more difficult than you seem to believe. And hard or easy, it's still fraud and theft of trade secrets.

 

[opckieran]

Yes, China created 25 thousand fake accounts. I doubt few, if any, actually paid a single penny to Anthropic; they simply signed up, downloaded the required data, and then ignored the subsequent invoices.

Honestly, even if the CCP did pay $20 per seat, $500,000 would be a small price to pay to accelerate through what would likely be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of man-hours worth of R&D.

 

[opckieran]

If the Chinese are so good at stealing secrets why haven't they reverse engineered ASML machines? Why not reverse engineer or copy chips rather than license from AMD and try to create their own? I've asked these questions before but you propagandists refuse to answer because the answer is obvious.

I don't think the issue is that the Chinese are particularly good (or not) at IP theft, it's that whatever they manage to reverse-engineer winds up back on the market (in usually poor quality), deliberately priced to undercut actual good, quality products, OR, fraudulently packaged in such a way to deceive buyers of Western goods; to reduce trust in Western brands. This operation has been subsidized by the CCP for decades, for the sole purpose of defeating Western companies. It's economic warfare, plain and simple. What makes it particularly egregious is their total disregard of Western IP law.

Now, this isn't to say the West is blameless. It's one thing for the CCP to purchase Western products and reverse engineer them, yada yada yada. But the Western companies that deliberately decided to hand the CCP the proberbial keys to the city by moving their manufacturing to China in the first place, basically doing their reverse-engineering for them? They're just as much to blame.

 

[pnntmp]

Nope. Get a better argument or go back to the circus you came from.

Saying "get a better argument" is not an argument. Would you care to explain why a better argument is necessary, and what's wrong with the argument at hand?

Oh, so collecting publicly available data is OK? You mean like what China did, making accounts that anyone int he public could do and recording the results?

Yes, collecting publicly available data is perfectly OK. Model responses are not publicly available data, they are only available to the account prompting the model.

 

[BadThad]

It just can't be! The Chinese are the most ethical and honest people in the world. LOLOLOL

Everything China has tech wise is STOLEN. They suck at innovation and prefer to take short cuts by stealing others work.

 

[JaredTheDragon]

Wrong again. China created several thousand fraudulent accounts to conduct thirty million data exchanges, violating not just Anthropic's TOS but federal law (18 U.S. Code § 1030.) China then used those results to calculate weights -- hidden, private, proprietary data -- in Anthropic's model. Anthropic's claim doesn't rest on copyright law, but on theft of trade secrets, fraudulent system access, and national security concerns.

Got it straight now?

Neither China nor any other nation nor any other person on Earth is subject to US "federal law". Only Statist American folks are subject to their Magic Napkin documents, and only if they choose to be subjects to an artificial master.

 

[Endymio]

Neither China nor any other nation nor any other person on Earth is subject to US "federal law".

Tell that to all those hackers, terrorists, drug lords, etc, the US has extradited from foreign nations for crimes committed on foreign soil. Many thousands of them are currently rotting in US prisons.

Only Statist American folks are subject to their Magic Napkin documents

Ignoring the rather disturbed undertones of your remark, US law aside, China has signed and agreed to multiple international treaties protecting intellectual property.

 

[wiyosaya]

Nor have you acknowledged that every human professional -- no matter what profession they're in -- is "trained" on countless copyrighted materials. Your college textbooks are all copyrighted material ... do you in your job use the knowledge you obtained from them? Is that "stealing"?

Sorry, man. Your strawman burned up with this. People (professionals) that get trained using copyrighted material, especially college students or students of any educational institution, or even those that simply have an interest in the material, pay for the right to use that copyrighted material by purchasing that copyrighted material from a bookstore or some other source like their educational institution paying a license fee for their students to access that material which is then covered by the tuition the students pay. You have heard of bookstores haven't you?

Or are you pre-or assuming that anyone who gets trained by using a text book never pays for the text book they used for their training?

I've heard of stretches, but that part of your comment borders on the absurd and delusional.

 

[Endymio]

I've heard of stretches, but that part of your comment borders on the absurd and delusional.

You've aptly described your own response. Let's outline your errors.

1. In my graduate work, at least, and to a lesser degree undergraduate, the majority of the materials used were either public domain, or copyrighted material unpurchased, but freely useable under fair use doctrine, which allows materials to be used for educational and research purposes.

2. The vast bulk of what these AI models are trained in is similarly either public domain material or copyrighted, but publicly viewable on the Internet. When you make your daily visit to Huffington Post and avidly read every story there, are you "stealing" those copyrighted articles? When you queue up your Katie Perry playlist on Youtube, are you stealing her works?

3. Copyrighted materials which are not made publicly viewable are in a grey area, under current legal doctrine. Running a copyrighted book through an algorithm to establish word usage for a paper on linguistics is clearly fair use for research. If that algorithm is instead training an AI model, is it also? No court has yet decided -- which is why Anthropic paid a large settlement (~$5000 per book) for use of copyrighted books. Not because they were clearly in the wrong, but because they didn't wish to risk facing a jury of low-information anti-AI loons such as infest this board.

 

[umeng2002]

Oh the irony... But I do think Copyright laws are too draconian.

 

[scoffer]

Well, let's be realistic here - What the **** did they expect?

 

[VOZA0DB]

Can't see what the problem is... It's like having a bunch of morons talking to a less ***** dude and the bunch reach the level of the less ***** dude! AKA learning...

 

[Liranan]

I don't think the issue is that the Chinese are particularly good (or not) at IP theft, it's that whatever they manage to reverse-engineer winds up back on the market (in usually poor quality), deliberately priced to undercut actual good, quality products, OR, fraudulently packaged in such a way to deceive buyers of Western goods; to reduce trust in Western brands. This operation has been subsidized by the CCP for decades, for the sole purpose of defeating Western companies. It's economic warfare, plain and simple. What makes it particularly egregious is their total disregard of Western IP law.

Now, this isn't to say the West is blameless. It's one thing for the CCP to purchase Western products and reverse engineer them, yada yada yada. But the Western companies that deliberately decided to hand the CCP the proberbial keys to the city by moving their manufacturing to China in the first place, basically doing their reverse-engineering for them? They're just as much to blame.

This is a nonsensical statement. China bought the blueprints of older high speed trains from Siemens, as Siemens refused to sell them the latest technologies. China iterated on those plans and created the largest and safest high speed rail network. Why didn't they just steal those plans? Why massively overpay for them?

And still nobody has answered as to why China hasn't stolen the blueprints for ASML machines or reverse engineered ARM, rather than license the IP? 'Logic' of stealing dictates that reverse engineer BOEING or Airbus is preferable, rather than create their own planes and buying engines from Rolls Royce.

Everyone was happy when the entire world was dumping their waste in China, as China was desperate for money. What nobody was expecting was that China would use that waste to create new technologies.

This is nothing but propaganda to hide the fact that the largest IP thieves are the CIA, NSA and Mossad.

 

[Liranan]

Yes, China created 25 thousand fake accounts. I doubt few, if any, actually paid a single penny to Anthropic; they simply signed up, downloaded the required data, and then ignored the subsequent invoices.


Are you working for the CCP, or just a fan of theirs?


It's more difficult than you seem to believe. And hard or easy, it's still fraud and theft of trade secrets.

The simple fact is that I'm not you and see the propaganda for what it is.

 

[Endymio]

China bought the blueprints of older high speed trains from Siemens...Why didn't they just steal those plans? Why massively overpay for them?

And still nobody has answered as to why China hasn't stolen the blueprints for ASML machines... ...

This is the most absurd excuse for logic yet: because China hasn't stolen every possible shred of IP on the planet, you believe that means they haven't stolen any?

Stop the nonsense. Chinese theft of trillions of dollars of IP is documented beyond dispute. ASML alone has recorded more than two thousand CCP attempts to steal its technology. As for Siemens, here are just two such incidents:

AP, Nov 2017: "November 2017: Three Chinese nationals were indicted by a US grand jury for computer hacking, theft of trade secrets, and conspiracy against Siemens, Moody's Analytics, and Trimble...."

AP: March 2021: "Ex-Siemens engineer sentenced over China trade secret theft...A former Siemens chief engineer has been convicted for selling secret information about the company's steam turbines to a Chinese company...."

...or reverse engineered ARM
rather than license the IP?

Oops again. Reverse-engineering is difficult; often nearly as hard as developing the tech from scratch. If you can't steal it outright, then licensing it is cheaper.

 

[opckieran]

And still nobody has answered as to why China hasn't stolen the blueprints for ASML machines or reverse engineered ARM, rather than license the IP? 'Logic' of stealing dictates that reverse engineer BOEING or Airbus is preferable, rather than create their own planes and buying engines from Rolls Royce.

Understand that China has been DESPERATELY trying to reverse-engineer their imported fabs. After the ban, they've been too scared to take what fabs they have apart, since ASML is heavily, if not totally, restricted in how they can support them in the event of a malfunction. Short of that, they've offered enormous sign-on bonuses for Western fab engineers in the hopes of filling in the blanks for the manufacturing of domestic fabs... As it turns out, trains are a lot easier to build than fabs or microprocessors. The costs to reverse engineer ARM and other licenced IP massively outstrips paying a meagre licensing fee for a turnkey solution a la ARM/AMD. Imagine that!

Everyone was happy when the entire world was dumping their waste in China, as China was desperate for money. What nobody was expecting was that China would use that waste to create new technologies.

Maybe the materialists were happy to get cheaper crap regardless of where it came from (or the ethics of how their assemblers were treated) but I certainly wasn't. Manufacturing and supply lines vanished from the West, and now our biggest adversary is the world's largest exporter, including the largest exporter to us. It's a MASSIVE, unacceptable vulnerability for us on so many levels.

This is a nonsensical statement. China bought the blueprints of older high speed trains from Siemens, as Siemens refused to sell them the latest technologies. China iterated on those plans and created the largest and safest high speed rail network. Why didn't they just steal those plans? Why massively overpay for them?

Given the vast scale of a critical, MONOLITHIC INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECT, it makes perfect sense for them to start with SOME legitimate reference, rather than from scratch or from something stolen. This isn't some bootleg TEMU "Nantendo" after all...

This is nothing but propaganda to hide the fact that the largest IP thieves are the CIA, NSA and Mossad.

Yikes. I guess we just shill for the CCP then

 

[Liranan]

This is the most absurd excuse for logic yet: because China hasn't stolen every possible shred of IP on the planet, you believe that means they haven't stolen any?

Stop the nonsense. Chinese theft of trillions of dollars of IP is documented beyond dispute. ASML alone has recorded more than two thousand CCP attempts to steal its technology. As for Siemens, here are just two such incidents:

AP, Nov 2017: "November 2017: Three Chinese nationals were indicted by a US grand jury for computer hacking, theft of trade secrets, and conspiracy against Siemens, Moody's Analytics, and Trimble...."

AP: March 2021: "Ex-Siemens engineer sentenced over China trade secret theft...A former Siemens chief engineer has been convicted for selling secret information about the company's steam turbines to a Chinese company...."


Oops again. Reverse-engineering is difficult; often nearly as hard as developing the tech from scratch. If you can't steal it outright, then licensing it is cheaper.

I've failed to pass the driving exam 2000 times, but I'm the greatest driver in the world!

Ignorance is strength!

 

[Liranan]

Understand that China has been DESPERATELY trying to reverse-engineer their imported fabs. After the ban, they've been too scared to take what fabs they have apart, since ASML is heavily, if not totally, restricted in how they can support them in the event of a malfunction. Short of that, they've offered enormous sign-on bonuses for Western fab engineers in the hopes of filling in the blanks for the manufacturing of domestic fabs... As it turns out, trains are a lot easier to build than fabs or microprocessors. The costs to reverse engineer ARM and other licenced IP massively outstrips paying a meagre licensing fee for a turnkey solution a la ARM/AMD. Imagine that!



Maybe the materialists were happy to get cheaper crap regardless of where it came from (or the ethics of how their assemblers were treated) but I certainly wasn't. Manufacturing and supply lines vanished from the West, and now our biggest adversary is the world's largest exporter, including the largest exporter to us. It's a MASSIVE, unacceptable vulnerability for us on so many levels.



Given the vast scale of a critical, MONOLITHIC INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECT, it makes perfect sense for them to start with SOME legitimate reference, rather than from scratch or from something stolen. This isn't some bootleg TEMU "Nantendo" after all...



Yikes. I guess we just shill for the CCP then

The Iron Curtain continues, fortunately most of the world aren't as ignorant as those who get fed propaganda and lies with every breath.