CERN approves 62-mile long, $23 billion successor to Large Hadron Collider

[midian182]

Forward-looking: At over 16 miles in length, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is an incredible feat of human engineering, but a new super-collider that’s been approved by Cern makes the LHC look small in comparison. With a circumference of over 62 miles, the Future Circular Collider (FCC) would be four times bigger and six times more powerful than the current particle-smashing machine and cost $23 billion dollars.

The European Organization for Nuclear Research, better known as Cern, has approved plans for the FCC, which would allow physicists to study the Higgs boson with more precision, learn more about dark matter, and search for new particles and other mysteries.

After Peter Higgs and five other scientists theorized the Higgs boson particle in 1964, it was first detected by Cern using the LHC in 2012.

Speaking about the Future Circular Collider, Cern said: “Such a machine would produce copious amounts of Higgs bosons in a very clean environment, would make dramatic progress in mapping the diverse interactions of the Higgs boson with other particles and [allow] measurements of extremely high precision.”

Assuming the financial backing is secured, construction could begin by 2038, and it will take around ten years to build the new machine, meaning it wouldn’t be operational until the 2040s. The first step involves a geological survey to ensure there are no underground lakes or other features beneath the Geneva site.

The FCC’s $23 billion cost will require investment from EU member states and Cern participants, along with a commitment to continue funding into the 2050s. Cern may also need to turn to other nations for financial help, including the US, China, and Japan.

As reported by The Guardian, the plan is for the FCC to be built in two stages. The first would involve the machine colliding electrons and positrons to maximize production of Higgs bosons. It’s hoped that by the 2050s, a second version could be smashing protons together with an energy of 100 teraelectronvolts (TeV)–around six times more than the LHC’s capability—which could uncover new phenomena.

The new super-collider would also allow scientists to study more precisely how Higgs bosons decay—some theorize that they decay into dark matter particles.

The current Large Hadron Collider is in the process of being upgraded and is due to restart in May next year, running until the end of 2024. Its final run is expected to begin at the end of 2027.

Image credit: Belish

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https://www.techspot.com/news/85717-new-super-collider-approved-cern-62-miles-long.html

 

[Uncle Al]

The value of science is immeasurable, still I can't help but remember the short story by Ray Bradbury called "The 1 Billion Names For God" in which a supercomputer was used to collect and report every possible name used for God .... and when the task was completed the stars began going out, like someone turn off light switches as to say "OK, you've accomplished everything, no need to continue".

Like a lot of people, I am very supportive of the science but I must admit that in a time when we haven't conquered world starvation, un-treatable diseases, and world conflict, $23 Billion dollars might be better spent on the aforementioned issues .....

 

[QuantumPhysics]

I have to ask what's really going on here.
$23 Billion and 62 miles for a "study"?

What does this thing REALLY do?

 

[tarsius]

You confuse diameter with circumference.

 

[Vulcanproject]

The value of science is immeasurable, still I can't help but remember the short story by Ray Bradbury called "The 1 Billion Names For God" in which a supercomputer was used to collect and report every possible name used for God .... and when the task was completed the stars began going out, like someone turn off light switches as to say "OK, you've accomplished everything, no need to continue".

Like a lot of people, I am very supportive of the science but I must admit that in a time when we haven't conquered world starvation, un-treatable diseases, and world conflict, $23 Billion dollars might be better spent on the aforementioned issues .....

I think most people understand that the money spent on something like this wouldn't just easily be diverted to 'fix' world starvation. However it would probably be better served on other scientific endeavours that are more pressing.

For example research into clean renewable energy. The figures that show how much has been diverted into fusion for example or other clean energy research projects are pathetic compared to what is spent on the oil industry or other subsidies for fossil fuels.

Countries spending billions a year on that and only tossing a few hundred million a year each as breadcrumbs for projects like ITER. Which actually have the potential to be groundbreaking, with genuine world changing outcomes for every human on the planet if they succeed.

ITER struggles to meet funding of $1.5bn a year give or take. Worldwide the yearly public sector research budget is barely more than $10bn.

This is incredible. When the energy sector is worth over $5 trillion a year, the MOST pressing issue of our time and we are coughing up mere peanuts to projects that a large world population's future critically hinges on.

 

[kimo1]

"$23 billion cost will require investment from EU member states" - yes sure take my money to make things go bang just for lols. Ofc people's opinion is never considered, since we don't riot enough.

 

[neeyik]

You confuse diameter with circumference.

No confusion at all. The present LHC has a circumference of 27 km, and the proposed FCC is to be up to 100 km.

I have to ask what's really going on here.
$23 Billion and 62 miles for a "study"?

What does this thing REALLY do?

Studies - plural, not singular. Years of research into fundamental sub-atomic particles and the behaviour of such entities at extremely high energy levels.

 

[Ted Ingersol]

CERN should consult the New York Ghostbusters for design documents, they managed to have particle accelerators on their backs. It would make the Future Circular Collider a little smaller....

 

[Gomos]

I have to ask what's really going on here.
$23 Billion and 62 miles for a "study"?

What does this thing REALLY do?

While an understable question to have, I find it weird that specifically someone called "QuantumPhysics" would ask this.

 

[Neatfeatguy]

So this is why EU has been going against large companies again for anti-trust law and such.

What's the possible fine against Amazon....20some billion? (I speak in jest....well, mostly)

 

[QuantumPhysics]

You confuse diameter with circumference.

that's what she said.

 

[EClyde]

All this money that could have gone to their choice a caring, empathetic and needy children school lunch programs....hunger could be stamped out in our democratic cities.

 

[neeyik]

All this money that could have gone to their choice a caring, empathetic and needy children school lunch programs....hunger could be stamped out in our democratic cities.

Population of the EU is something like 450 million, so 20 billion Euros gives each individual 44 Euros. Of course, not all of that population needs this, so let's say 5% are deserving of it: this means they now get 880 Euros. Median monthly salary in the EU is roughly 1500 Euros, so it's not going to go very far. Let's strip it right down and only give it to the truly desperate - I don't know what percentage that is, but let's say it's 0.01%. Each person would get about 400k Euros or 25 years worth of median monthly salary.

So yes, it could make an incredible difference to a small number of people. But there again, there's something like 10 billion Euros per year spent on chocolate, so maybe everyone should stop eating that and give the money to programs to combat hunger instead? 20 billion Euros would also get you a nice 5 nm semiconductor fabrication plant too, so how about forcing all hardware vendors stop investing in such things and donate the money instead?

Of course, this is all being very facetious, and it's worth noting that the 20 billion Euro figure is a lump sum. CERN gets funded by EU member states and other countries and organisations. I think the total comes to something like 1 billion Euros per year, but that might be an overly generous estimate. How far would this go across all the contributing nations to combat hunger?

It's also worth noting that this is only a project bid - the funding has absolutely not been approved, and give what's happened of late, I should imagine a lot of funding bodies may reject it.

 

[Bulllee]

I have to ask what's really going on here.
$23 Billion and 62 miles for a "study"?

What does this thing REALLY do?

It dosen't do anything yet,just been approved in Europe where it's dad lives.

 

[Lew Zealand]

The biggest problem with this is not the cost. Apple pulls in twice this number in revenue *every quarter*. The problem is the cost/benefit ratio. The LHC found the Higgs Boson as it was designed to do but was expected to identify other subatomic particles but so far has failed to do so. And there aren't even reasonably good indications that they are close, at which point the FCC would then nail those down. I have a science background and love it but the aside from the Higgs, the LHC has been a bit of a letdown and perhaps this money should go to other science projects.

Same idea as canning the Space Shuttle. It did some great stuff, including servicing the Hubble a number of times and ferrying parts of the ISS to orbit, but it's time for something different. IMO same thing here. I was disappointed that the SSC wasn't built in Texas 25 years ago but frankly, even with $1B already sunk into it I'm glad they didn't waste the extra $5-8B they were asking for and that $ goes to other projects.

 

[tarsius]

No confusion at all. The present LHC has a circumference of 27 km, and the proposed FCC is to be up to 100 km.

Look at annotation:

Forward-looking: At over 16 miles in length, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is an incredible feat of human engineering, but a new super-collider that’s been approved by Cern makes the LHC look small in comparison. Measuring 62 miles in diameter, the Future Circular Collider (FCC) would be four times bigger and six times more powerful than the current particle-smashing machine and cost $23 billion dollars.

 

[neeyik]

Look at annotation:

Ah, quite right and my apologies too

@midian182 a typo for you to fix!

 

[Milkyjoe]

What if, there really turning Earth into a Deathstar

 

[tonylukac]

Mine lost length.

 

[wiyosaya]

The value of science is immeasurable, still I can't help but remember the short story by Ray Bradbury called "The 1 Billion Names For God" in which a supercomputer was used to collect and report every possible name used for God .... and when the task was completed the stars began going out, like someone turn off light switches as to say "OK, you've accomplished everything, no need to continue".

Like a lot of people, I am very supportive of the science but I must admit that in a time when we haven't conquered world starvation, un-treatable diseases, and world conflict, $23 Billion dollars might be better spent on the aforementioned issues .....

Considering that in the US alone $240 BILLION dollars worth of food is wasted each year, I would have to say that we have to start a lot closer to home to solve the problem of world hunger.

At an estimated cost of less than 1/10 that amount, perhaps the problem should be considered the other way around; saving that amount of money in a year would mean being able to build TEN of these things.
https://www.usnews.com/news/healthi...aste-240-billion-in-food-each-year-study-says

 

[TopAstro]

The title of this interesting article is a bit misleading: CERN has not really "approved" anything, except a long-term strategy document. For the high energy community this is indeed significant, as it charts out a prioritized roadmap and highlights the R&D hurdles on which to focus. However, given the lack of clear hints to new physics, an actual decision cannot come before a few years (when also some of the technological issues, like the feasibility of suitable very high-field superconducting magnets, will have been clarified).

@UncleAl @EClyde: I think extremely important issues such as world hunger and renewable energy are not in any way in competition with fundamental physics research: on the contrary, only societies that invest in fundamental, in parallel to applied sciences, can really prosper in the long term. We throw away a shamefully enormous fraction of the food we produce, and we have the technology to harvest solar energy in more than adequate supply. The solution to these problems does not require massive R&D money, but changing politics and individual behaviors (which admittedly is much more difficult).

 

[brucek]

Will they be putting the previous gen super collider on ebay? What's a used obsolete one go for?

 

[JB3543]

Considering that in the US alone $240 BILLION dollars worth of food is wasted each year, I would have to say that we have to start a lot closer to home to solve the problem of world hunger.

At an estimated cost of less than 1/10 that amount, perhaps the problem should be considered the other way around; saving that amount of money in a year would mean being able to build TEN of these things.
https://www.usnews.com/news/healthi...aste-240-billion-in-food-each-year-study-says

But if Americans ate that additional $240B of food, then obesity would dramatically rise, salt intact (with all that entails) would go way up, etc. Then health costs would skyrocket. You should learn how to see things in better perspective.

 

[brucek]

Those of you talking about world hunger understand much of the problem involves transport, logistics, and especially, the political and security situations on the ground where the food would ideally be delivered, right? That latter part being the most unsolvable with funds alone unless you're contemplating budgets for military actions.

Also, while I am typically a fan of the free market for determining economic questions such as how much of item X should be produced, when it comes to food supply, I am OK with the US having policies that ensure an over-production and following spoilage in most years as a hedge against a bad circumstance where the normal supply is disrupted and the extra is needed.

 

[wiyosaya]

But if Americans ate that additional $240B of food, then obesity would dramatically rise, salt intact (with all that entails) would go way up, etc. Then health costs would skyrocket. You should learn how to see things in better perspective.

Surely you jest. Americans waistlines are already causing health problems even with throwing out $240 billion worth of food each year.

The point, my friend, is the MASSIVE waste. If that amount of food were not wasted and were sent to those who need it, it would go a long way toward solving world hunger as it is.

But then again, it seems many really do not get the idea of waste.