Chinese newspaper claims the US "tricked" TSMC into building Arizona fabs, is stealing...

[captaincranky]

I know what the price of gas was at the pumps before the china virus and I also know Biden campaigned on putting the screws to the oil & gas industry all while kissing China's arse.

Apparently, it would seem that you don't. Because it wasn't "$2.00 less", than it is in PA now, ($3.70), and we're 40 cents above the national average.

 

[captaincranky]

To be fair, Captain, the US does have a hypersonic missile program and is working, successfully, on them.

Groovy. Give me a shout out when they strap it to an F-15 and test fire it at Mar a Lago.

 

[captaincranky]

I agree mostly, except if we put a tight grip on energy carbon footprint on the western hemisphere, with a blind spot for the side effects of those policies and still ignoring the Eastern hemisphere; from polluting the same world; so that the western hemisphere can have cheaper manufacturing.

Well, at least we can give off massive "virtue signals", by going a bit greener. Besides, "out of sight, out of mind", is all the average US citizen can wrap their head around. So, if it's still pretty smoggy in China....?

There is definitely some bad actors that rather profit from it all and push their one time use solar panels made in ch!na that they have interest in, hence the lack of promoting less profitable energy renewable resources like Geothermal energy which is imo more safer than Nuclear, more reliable than solar and wind combined and has less waste than others as well. Being virtues just on the surface without looking at the bigger picture of, macro economics, policy side effects, and guaranteed end results for the cost of it all is not being responsible and sets up one for criticism and doubt on intent.

I wish there was someway I could give you a short answer or solution to these questions. I think you need to take a long hard look at the vast chasm between human nature and human ideals. I'll try to fill in some of the blanks. Best I can do.

To begin with, the US empire is more decadent exponentially, than ancient Rome could ever dream of being. The more we want, the less we're willing to do for it. It's fine to have ideals, but that's not workable with a belief system that's set in stone.

Politicians are all raging narcissists Some are more willing to appease or work for the people than others. But in the end, if you blow enough sunshine up their backsides, they'll buy into anything you try and sell them.. (And a little bit of graft on the side helps a lot).

Con artists, snake oil salesmen, grifters, and lobbyists, are all getting "better" by the generation. So, the average politician, who has been literally "sold" to you, really isn't qualified to objectively evaluate issues based in science. Some politicians aren't even remotely qualified to be in office. I would cite Marjorie Taylor Greene as the most salient example. But, she holds office by virtue of voters "belief systems', not from any critical thinking on their part.

Then go to the animal kingdom and ask yourself why the most aggressive male lion has the biggest range and the most females under his control. When you factor in human greed, you'll find why too much money, women, and land, are never enough. We're all wannabe alphas on this bus. Which is why psychopaths like Elon Musk are worshiped by so many people, We tend to live vicariously through them.

The short answer is, "we're not even close to as smart as we think we are". We're still living our lives predicated on our basic animal natures.

I could tell you that current inflation isn't Biden's fault, but would you believe me? The manufacturer gets it into his head to charge more for something, the shipper feels he should get a cut, the ripoff goes on down the line, and the end result is a nasty bill for the consumer.

Parasites are pervasive throughout the "food chain", casinos, real estate speculators, big pharma, oil companies, energy suppliers, to name just a few. You really can't dump it all on Biden, as easy and convenient as that might be. Stir in a little profiteering and price gouging, and you've got yourself into an inflation stew. You give a landlord any petty excuse like a small increase in water rates, and the next thing you know, your rent is increased by 20%.

If the elites use 1000x the carbon footprint as us just to meet to talk about being green annually what is this exactly if not hypocritical? What happened to leading by example and not by force?

Believe it or not, this was actually addressed in part by someone you apparently disdain, Barack Obama.!

When the big bailout happened, (it was caused by greed, and subprime mortgage lending), the car companies were pissing and moaning about how much money they were losing, (despite the CEO's 100 mil salaries, they were called to congress. They all came in private corporate jets. Obama basically told them that if they wanted to poor mouth in front of congress, take Southwest, or be prepared to lose your jobs. In the end, the fed took over, IIRC GM, and possibly Ford as well. None of that obviously meets your ideals, but as they say, "man's reach always exceeds his grasp".

And so it goes with all of man's endeavors, man himself always fails to meet "humanity" as we would imagine it to be possible.

Well, this drifted quite a bit, but of some things I'm certain. Show me a priest and I'll show you a pathological liar. Show me a politician and I'll show you a rampant narcissist. Show me a teacher, and I'll show you someone you feeds their own ego by knowing more than the ones they're teaching. It's not really possible to "help someone", without some form of ego gratification. Human nature always outwits itself.

As they say, "familiarity breeds contempt". and my dark, dark opinion of humanity in general, is born of familiarity.

Close for now. It's 2:47 AM EST and I simply have to have my dinner. The animal calls. I can tell by the growling in my stomach.

 

[AlaskaGuy]

Well, at least we can give off massive "virtue signals", by going a bit greener. Besides, "out of sight, out of mind", is all the average US citizen can wrap their head around. So, if it's still pretty smoggy in China....?

I wish there was someway I could give you a short answer or solution to these questions. I think you need to take a long hard look at the vast chasm between human nature and human ideals. I'll try to fill in some of the blanks. Best I can do.

To begin with, the US empire is more decadent exponentially, than ancient Rome could ever dream of being. The more we want, the less we're willing to do for it. It's fine to have ideals, but that's not workable with a belief system that's set in stone.

Politicians are all raging narcissists Some are more willing to appease or work for the people than others. But in the end, if you blow enough sunshine up their backsides, they'll buy into anything you try and sell them.. (And a little bit of graft on the side helps a lot).

Con artists, snake oil salesmen, grifters, and lobbyists, are all getting "better" by the generation. So, the average politician, who has been literally "sold" to you, really isn't qualified to objectively evaluate issues based in science. Some politicians aren't even remotely qualified to be in office. I would cite Marjorie Taylor Greene as the most salient example. But, she holds office by virtue of voters "belief systems', not from any critical thinking on their part.

Then go to the animal kingdom and ask yourself why the most aggressive male lion has the biggest range and the most females under his control. When you factor in human greed, you'll find why too much money, women, and land, are never enough. We're all wannabe alphas on this bus. Which is why psychopaths like Elon Musk are worshiped by so many people, We tend to live vicariously through them.

The short answer is, "we're not even close to as smart as we think we are". We're still living our lives predicated on our basic animal natures.

I could tell you that current inflation isn't Biden's fault, but would you believe me? The manufacturer gets it into his head to charge more for something, the shipper feels he should get a cut, the ripoff goes on down the line, and the end result is a nasty bill for the consumer.

Parasites are pervasive throughout the "food chain", casinos, real estate speculators, big pharma, oil companies, energy suppliers, to name just a few. You really can't dump it all on Biden, as easy and convenient as that might be. Stir in a little profiteering and price gouging, and you've got yourself into an inflation stew. You give a landlord any petty excuse like a small increase in water rates, and the next thing you know, your rent is increased by 20%.

Believe it or not, this was actually addressed in part by someone you apparently disdain, Barack Obama.!

When the big bailout happened, (it was caused by greed, and subprime mortgage lending), the car companies were pissing and moaning about how much money they were losing, (despite the CEO's 100 mil salaries, they were called to congress. They all came in private corporate jets. Obama basically told them that if they wanted to poor mouth in front of congress, take Southwest, or be prepared to lose your jobs. In the end, the fed took over, IIRC GM, and possibly Ford as well. None of that obviously meets your ideals, but as they say, "man's reach always exceeds his grasp".

And so it goes with all of man's endeavors, man himself always fails to meet "humanity" as we would imagine it to be possible.

Well, this drifted quite a bit, but of some things I'm certain. Show me a priest and I'll show you a pathological liar. Show me a politician and I'll show you a rampant narcissist. Show me a teacher, and I'll show you someone you feeds their own ego by knowing more than the ones they're teaching. It's not really possible to "help someone", without some form of ego gratification. Human nature always outwits itself.

As they say, "familiarity breeds contempt". and my dark, dark opinion of humanity in general, is born of familiarity.

Close for now. It's 2:47 AM EST and I simply have to have my dinner. The animal calls. I can tell by the growling in my stomach.

Is this the same Obummer who purchased an ocean front mansion after preaching global warming. lolz

Inside Barack Obama’s super luxurious and exclusive private jet

www.citizen.digital

 

[captaincranky]

Is this the same Obummer who purchased an ocean front mansion after preaching global warming. lolz

That's so cute. You've learned to coin 5th grade insult nicknames from your hero. Well, you know what they say, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".

Shouldn't you be changing your avatar to DiSantis about now? There's another boorish, overbearing, windbag, exactly the right recipient for your far right wing idolatry.

Just think, Ron DiSantis for president and Marjorie Taylor Greene for veep, there's your dream ticket if there ever was one. Crack out that checkbook.

But let's face facts, "Obummer", doesn't even come close to "the Great Pumpkin", as relatable or funny.

 

[neeyik]

Second request for comments to stick to the news topic.

 

[captaincranky]

US supporting Taiwan is not simply because of TSMC. Its a strategic location and it connect countries around whether is it for trade or military purpose.

Agreed. But, TSMC fabs in the US makes the best excuse ever for us to be there. Does it not? "We're looking after our business interests". Surely, China has to respect that.Once they get done whimpering about it in their propaganda rag, hopefully they'll see the light..

 

[WhoCaresAnymore]

Agreed. But, TSMC fabs in the US makes the best excuse ever for us to be there. Does it not? "We're looking after our business interests". Surely, China has to respect that.Once they get done whimpering about it in their propaganda rag, hopefully they'll see the light..

Nobody here is mentioning that the agreement for Taiwan to remain independent WILL end. Why the heck wouldn't we want to bring our manufacturing home.

 

[emmzo]

The Chinese claim is preposterous. This is all Western tech developed in Taiwan. A part of it is coming home.

 

[takaozo]

It's a small step toward bringing back manufacturing to US, but only CPU die it's not enough since assembly with other parts it's required aka CPU packaging. At least for AMD, this will only raise cost even more since 2 way trip to Asia is needed to get the final product.

And let's not forget the rest of the PC parts will still come from China.

 

[ColdSoup]

It's a small step toward bringing back manufacturing to US, but only CPU die it's not enough since assembly with other parts it's required aka CPU packaging. At least for AMD, this will only raise cost even more since 2 way trip to Asia is needed to get the final product.

And let's not forget the rest of the PC parts will still come from China.

Assembly can be done in the US. Both TSMC and SK Hynix will have newest gen packaging facilities operational in the US in 2025. There are already dozens of moderate volume contract chip packaging and test facilities in the US which just aren't household names like TSMC is.

I highly doubt a double shipment process would be done. There's also a very high probability of getting slapped with a 25% tariff (by virtue of non-renewal of exemptions) if they try to do that after taking CHIPS act funding.

 

[wiyosaya]

It's a small step toward bringing back manufacturing to US, but only CPU die it's not enough since assembly with other parts it's required aka CPU packaging. At least for AMD, this will only raise cost even more since 2 way trip to Asia is needed to get the final product.

And let's not forget the rest of the PC parts will still come from China.

As I see it, the rest of manufacturing moving out of China will happen - at least the manufacturing of chips is a start. However, not all semiconductors/PC parts presently come from China.

 

[captaincranky]

Nobody here is mentioning that the agreement for Taiwan to remain independent WILL end. Why the heck wouldn't we want to bring our manufacturing home.

I've never suggested anything to the contrary.. I've only suggested anything that having TSMC as (tacitly), and American company, (ostensibly), could strengthen Taiwan's position as an independent country.

Even if China were to invade Taiwan, and TSMC be forced to destroy their fabs, they could still soldier on here, albeit at a reduced production capacity.

My objection to AMD, has always been their dependence on TSMC for almost the entirety of their product.

Whether you love them or hate them, Intel has fabs in multiple countries, and can cook their own chips. AMD, (AFAIK), has not even planned or is intending to implement self production capability Well except. maybe putting the lids on, a bit of a QC, and printing the boxes. Big whoop. You be sure to let me know if I'm incorrect about any of this.

I've mentioned before,( IMO), that AMD is, to my mind a CPU & VGA design firm. I don't have any reservations as to the quality or performance their product, only to their dependence on TSMC, with no apparent strategy to reduce it.

AMD aficionados have moaned about how the CHIPS ACT , will "unfairly give Intel an unfair advantage over AMD". I still hold to the belief that I don't understand how that's possible, since AMD has no plans, (to my knowledge), to become a manufacturer. So, they'e tied to that whole"outsourcing stigmata", which seems to have become a huge bone of contention to all US parties involved, from American workers, to companies competing with goods marked, "made in the USA". Well, except for American consumers, who seem to relish the cheap prices from goods made abroad, while disingenuously railing against it.

 

[captaincranky]

The Chinese media is just blowing smoke up it's own arse. Its their reflection they are railing against with their claims of "stealing Chinese knowledge."

They are blowing smoke up their own arses, but I don't believe that's the sole cause of it. In large part, it's likely simple jealousy, since the mighty CCP, hasn't been able on its own, to come up with anything comparable in performance, to that damnable rogue island, and hence they covet it.

 

[captaincranky]

Assembly can be done in the US. Both TSMC and SK Hynix will have newest gen packaging facilities operational in the US in 2025. There are already dozens of moderate volume contract chip packaging and test facilities in the US which just aren't household names like TSMC is.

This is no different from the guitar industry, who for the sake of appeasement. QCs and sets up their mid line guitars in the US, while China does the heavy lifting by manufacturing the entire guitar itself.
At least with Fender and Taylor, their lower end models are made in Mexico.

No so with Gibson and their Chinese knockoff , "Epiphone", brand. These models are made in China and other parts of southeast Asia. Epiphone is setting the world on musical fire, while Gibson has filed for bankruptcy..

When you can buy 90% of the sound quality of the revered Gibson J-200, then buy an Epiphone EJ-200 copy for 1/10 of the cost. I bought 2 of them, and still have about $3,000.00 left over.

The Gibson doesn't become any where near of a value for their instrument, until you tag the Epi with at least a $2,000. tariff.

 

[WhoCaresAnymore]

I've never suggested anything to the contrary.. I've only suggested anything that having TSMC as (tacitly), and American company, (ostensibly), could strengthen Taiwan's position as an independent country.

Even if China were to invade Taiwan, and TSMC be forced to destroy their fabs, they could still soldier on here, albeit at a reduced production capacity.

My objection to AMD, has always been their dependence on TSMC for almost the entirety of their product.

Whether you love them or hate them, Intel has fabs in multiple countries, and can cook their own chips. AMD, (AFAIK), has not even planned or is intending to implement self production capability Well except. maybe putting the lids on, a bit of a QC, and printing the boxes. Big whoop. You be sure to let me know if I'm incorrect about any of this.

I've mentioned before,( IMO), that AMD is, to my mind a CPU & VGA design firm. I don't have any reservations as to the quality or performance their product, only to their dependence on TSMC, with no apparent strategy to reduce it.

AMD aficionados have moaned about how the CHIPS ACT , will "unfairly give Intel an unfair advantage over AMD". I still hold to the belief that I don't understand how that's possible, since AMD has no plans, (to my knowledge), to become a manufacturer. So, they'e tied to that whole"outsourcing stigmata", which seems to have become a huge bone of contention to all US parties involved, from American workers, to companies competing with goods marked, "made in the USA". Well, except for American consumers, who seem to relish the cheap prices from goods made abroad, while disingenuously railing against it.

Not a half-bad premises. It's hard to say what is going to happen. If China starts to hurt economically, they will take it in short order. That's just how the world powers work. Wars change the narrative.

 

[yannus]

Never forget that it was BOTH major parties in the US that sold out to China in the early 90's. They created that monster and happily reaped the benefits. It was only when they realized China was just stealing all the tech that they'd been given to manufacture that anyone started to care.

Correct, except for the fact that they "realized" from the very beginning but now fake wanting to find a solution as it's too late. This is called sabotage. It has been done and continues being done in all western countries until complete submission. Our governments don't work for our nations. They have their own agenda and don't consider us as their fellow citizens. Ask Chinese people, they have already been through this and now enjoy perfect slavery.

 

[koblongata]

The level of braindeadness is beyond comprehension. How is it possible for China not to know that the world is building up new supply chains because of China in the first place?

 

[Darth Shiv]

The level of braindeadness is beyond comprehension. How is it possible for China not to know that the world is building up new supply chains because of China in the first place?

It's pretty hypocritical to build up wealth using China's cheap labor and manufacturing costs then whinge when they try defend their marketshare gifted to them by capitalism.

I am certainly pro-US manufacturing too. Not "pure" tariff's per se. I think we should be taxing imports on the living standards etc of the production of goods. E.g. if you have unsafe work conditions, you pay more tariffs. If you use slave labor. More tariffs. If you use toxic production processes or extremely polluting. More tariffs. Then China or whoever can't whine about it. They can change their processes and control the tariffs they pay that way. And it levels the playing field with developed countries a bit.

We allowed our manufacturing to disappear to cheap overseas nations chasing corporate profits and executive salaries.

 

[captaincranky]

Nobody here is mentioning that the agreement for Taiwan to remain independent WILL end. Why the heck wouldn't we want to bring our manufacturing home.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I don't think TSMC building fabs on US soil isn't a good idea on its own merit. The fact that China is b!tching about it is just icing on the cake.

That was the topic. And sometimes I go against my baser instincts and post on topic. Sure, I know better, and there's always another rabbit hole opening up, which I gleefully go down. So what?

 

[WhoCaresAnymore]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I don't think TSMC building fabs on US soil isn't a good idea on its own merit. The fact that China is b!tching about it is just icing on the cake.

That was the topic. And sometimes I go against my baser instincts and post on topic. Sure, I know better, and there's always another rabbit hole opening up, which I gleefully go down. So what?

Exactly. lol. I always enjoy reading your posts.

 

[gamerk2]

As a reminder: The US *wanted* this. That was the entire point of Supply-Side economic theory: Cheaply produced goods produced overseas via Free Trade Agreements would drive down inflation and keep living standards stable even as worker wages/benefits fell.

The obvious downside, as the world is coming to grips to, is the long-term economic stagnation that has resulted. Nevermind often hostile countries being the bed of most manufacturing. Combine that with the growing realization economic co-dependence is not the magic bullet to end all wars, and you see why the world at large is pivoting to protectionism.

I'll say it again: If an overseas company wants to compete on price, I say, let them. But at the same time, if an American one wants to move production overseas just to increase their profits, tariff them at 50%. Or even 100%. Force US companies to produce on the US, and if they can't compete on price then compete on other merits (Quality, Features, etc.).

 

[wiyosaya]

They are blowing smoke up their own arses, but I don't believe that's the sole cause of it. In large part, it's likely simple jealousy, since the mighty CCP, hasn't been able on its own, to come up with anything comparable in performance, to that damnable rogue island, and hence they covet it.

I do agree.

This whole situation reminds me of the 1970's and the 1980's when the chant then was "Cheap Japanese Crap" which has obviously morphed to "Cheap Chinese Crap" in the current day.

However, even if China were to drastically improve the quality of their products, I would rather see manufacturing continue to return to the US. The US has sold itself to the devil, IMO, and needs to bring this manufacturing back to the US.

If China does not like it, Tough . The move to bring manufacturing, of all sorts, back to the US is long overdue.

 

[wiyosaya]

As a reminder: The US *wanted* this. That was the entire point of Supply-Side economic theory: Cheaply produced goods produced overseas via Free Trade Agreements would drive down inflation and keep living standards stable even as worker wages/benefits fell.

It wasn't only the US that wanted this, it was China, too. After centuries of isolation, they wanted to rejoin the modern world - not that we should have gone along with it.

The obvious downside, as the world is coming to grips to, is the long-term economic stagnation that has resulted. Nevermind often hostile countries being the bed of most manufacturing. Combine that with the growing realization economic co-dependence is not the magic bullet to end all wars, and you see why the world at large is pivoting to protectionism.

It's too bad that those responsible did not see the devil in the details, however, at least we, the US, are coming to our senses and finally discovering that we made a deal with the devil that was not worth what we got out of it.

I'll say it again: If an overseas company wants to compete on price, I say, let them. But at the same time, if an American one wants to move production overseas just to increase their profits, tariff them at 50%. Or even 100%. Force US companies to produce on the US, and if they can't compete on price then compete on other merits (Quality, Features, etc.).

I agree 1000%. Tax incentives have, as I understand it, favored those companies that want to move production someplace other than the US. IMO, that is an extremely bad policy.

 

[BigCatsByte]

One thing I'm concerned with, and it's not being mentioned. Is the amount of water that is used in Chip making, and the hazardous wastes produced. There was a good reason to make this stuff somewhere else. And Arizona? Yea its known for its copious amounts of water.

"By some estimates, a large chip fab can use up to 10 million gallons of water a day, which is equivalent to the water consumption of roughly 300,000 households."