Conspiracy to delay the Electric Car?

[Kevin16]

Electric cars are slow and brokeback mountain. They can't even travel a decent amount without needing to recharge. The reason few if any manufactures are developing the electric car is because it's not practical compared to other alternative fuel sources like hydrogen, ethanal, and natural gas.

 

[Kevin16]

I would rather kill myself than drive that EV-1.

 

[SNGX1275]

before everyone stresses themselves to death about this. LOOK UP THE INFORMATION on what you are about to spew forth to the masses. I assure you its not the same as you originally thought.

 

[Vigilante]

Why don't they just build some kind of propulsion system under roads? Then all you need is a box on 4 wheels with breaks. The road will pull you along.

Maybe they should just build all roads downhill? Then we can just cruise around.

How about harnessing the kinetic engery of angry people?

Why don't we just send a thousand and 1 nukes over iran/iraq, to wipe out all people, and then just claim the country ours? All the free oil we want!

Maybe we could all live in tightly packed mini-suburbs where everything is within walking distance. Fill the planet with these tiny mini-cities and have a way to jetison people between them instantly?

How come we haven't invented portals yet? You could just zap yourself anywhere you need to be, and have no vehicles at all?

------

No point to this. Just wondering why this thread isn't dead yet. lol

 

[N3051M]

Why don't we just send a thousand and 1 nukes over iran/iraq, to wipe out all people, and then just claim the country ours? All the free oil we want!

wouldnt that mean having to wait some 200 years (or whatever the half life of uranium was) for the radioactivity to die down? unless, off course someone can harness the energy from both the radiation + the oil lol..

we need more mad scientists.. and sane people with big wallets.. hang on, maybe its the other way around... Someone invent some anti gravity devices and we'll be all set.

Anyways, even if car manufacturers do start focusing on more hybrids/alternate models, the problem would be implimenting an efficient power source and power production facility that doesnt effect the surrounding environment. But then again, this world is controled by the oil companies.... to a point of influencing our governments into what they can do and what they're worth..

 

[Mictlantecuhtli]

The Air Car

 

[TonyGuitar]

SNGX, Your thoughts about Nuke and Coal plants got me thinking...

We have a near unlimited supply of natural gas for generating power [ not mentioned in the MSM as in the eighties to justify higher prices], until such time as Hydogen economy of scale becomes the better cleaner choice..

Far better to have large, efficient. well managed Hydrogen plants making electric power behind chain link fencing, than to have small hydrogen cells running around in millions of vehicles.... eh?

Far better to have fossil fuel powered plants with scrubbers, [even], than millions of fossil burning engines running around spewing pollution... especially diesel rigs and busses... eh?

Not all is rosey though. Kevin 16 thinks the elecric car is whimp powered. Just the opposite is true.

I guess Kevin 16 has never ridden on an electric bus where you are pinned to the seat every time the driver leaves a stop. And that is old technology.

The problem will be designing E.D. cars so they can*t be easily modified into silent rocket cars.

I have been in a special Mazda wankle engine car when the pedal has been stomped and the power is immense and smooth, without any gear shifting... at least you only feel one steady pull that pushes you way back in the seat.

That performance is standard with modern E.D. Electric Drive.

So all is not rosey when drag racing becomes silent with no exhaust noise. They may have to install warning whistles on the hood that activate at 60 MPH and up. = TG

 

[KingCody]

I have been in a special Mazda wankle engine car when the pedal has been stomped and the power is immense and smooth, without any gear shifting... at least you only feel one steady pull that pushes you way back in the seat.

i don't get how you are comparing the wankle engine to the electric motor

I would rather kill myself than drive that EV-1.

given the choice between driving the EV-1or suicide... you would really choose suicide? lol... that's sad :haha:

 

[TonyGuitar]

This is getting beyond control... Discovered that Toyota has an electric vehicle in several models in fact. It is the Toyota RAV4-EV and there is both a photo and a see thru diagram / plan posted at:
http://TonyGuitar.blogspot.com

Electric Car Wins in Speed Race Against Ferrari & Porsche
Watch TV coverage by Bay Area KRON4 of the Wrightspeed showdown
Low resolution for Real Player (1MB) or High resolution for Windows Media Player (11MB)
<b>[ Find this at ... http://www.pluginamerica.com/ </b>

Finally, a website where all my bros live. Where all my arguments are made. Where all my wishful statements turned out to be true.

How is it that so few of us are aware of the many choices of Electric Drive vehicles... ?

Look at the see-through drawing of the RAV4 EV and ask yourself why this SIMPLE machine should cost more than 50% of the stupidly complex oil burners we still drive today?

No engine block, valves, lifters, cam shaft, pistons, rods and the machining they require. No water jacket and radiator, no gas pump, oil pump or water pump. No transmission, tourque converter or power train.
No ignition timing. No fuel mixing. No fuel injection. No air filter. No oil filter. No muffler, No catayltic converter. No anti-freeze, no waterpump lubrication. No poisionous monoxide gas and no noise.

There is more of this troublesome junk you don*t have to pay for or repair with an Electric Vehicle, but you get the idea. = TG

 

[Kevin16]

Well, of course they can make an electric car that goes really fast. But the question remains: how long can it last?

And anyways, your idea of the ideal electric car will cost hundreds of thousands....

 

[N3051M]

But the question remains: how long can it last?

Probably a few hours, like 6 (at best) or maybe same as a laptop.. It just depends on how efficient the engine is to output the power to the wheels and regenerate (to some point) the power lost. Of course, if there is electric vehicles then it'll probably mean seeing power outlets at your local parking lots to recharge the cars while you go shopping say, so hours dont realy mean jack. Like i said, once we have a suitable energy efficient "battery" we could start seeing these types of cars move out of the city and into remote/country areas where theres less power outlets and such, so battery life is longer..

Think of it like the Gameboy. The original started with 4 AA batteries, and lasts 2 hrs or so continuous and is heavy. Then as technology improved, the current incarnation of the Gameboy (Advance/DS) moved to rechargable Li-Ion batteries, which lasts few days at best or at least like 10x more than the original. Without the weight.

And anyways, your idea of the ideal electric car will cost hundreds of thousands....

Oh dont worry, once thoes richboys have their chance to play around with them and it starts to get mass produced they'll be the same price as those toys coming from china... remember the DVD burners?

 

[TonyGuitar]

Kevin, you don*t go down without a fight. I*ll give you that.

The computer you are using did cost hundreds of thousands only a few years ago. How can you afford it?

The actual man hours labour cost of an electric car is but a fraction of a gas or oil burning engine vehicle with all the added systems it needs to run.

The high cost of EVs is only due to no economy of scale.

An EV is not much more than an electric fan motor with battery and charger.

Someone on another site said cold Canadian winters would put the batteries to sleep.

Guess he forgot that when the auto-charge comes on from 2 to 7 am the batteries are warm and at full strength.

Some big box stores currently offer free plug-in for EVs, senior carts, golf carts and electric scooters.

Kevin... you didn*t check the www.plugInAmerica.com site yet, eh? = TG

 

[Kevin16]

omg...the point is that electric cars cannot get the horsepower and the haul of a gasoline engine. Why do you think scientists of the most technologically advanced countries around the world CHOOSE not to further develop the electric car? Answer: Because there are other, cheaper, and more efficient options.

 

[TonyGuitar]

EVs have power galore..

Kevin16, It*s embarrassing that you refuse to read the link a little.

You will find documented evidence, [photos et al], that an EV easily beat two leading Euro racing cars. Was it Lambourghini and BMW?.. now I have to go look again..

Electric cars must be goverened because their speed is is almost unlimited. = TG

 

[SNGX1275]

The EV1 got at best 110 miles on a charge. That may be great for you people that live in big cities, but not too long ago I was driving 100 miles a day (50 to work and 50 home), there is no way an EV1 would have been able to make that trip at 70-80mph on interstate.

Here is a link I'm sure TonyGuitar will be happy I'm posting http://www.wired.com/news/wiredmag/0,71414-0.html?tw=rss.index
It gets 250 (supposedly) miles per charge, and if you got a huge breaker box at your house (need 220V @ 70A) you can charge it in 3.5 hours.

Runs on LiIon batteries though, I really question the longevity of them.

 

[N3051M]

omg...the point is that electric cars cannot get the horsepower and the haul of a gasoline engine.

Are you refering to the "grunt" you feel when you press down on the accelerator? Of course electric vehicles wont have that "grunt" simply because there is 0 combustable parts and less moving parts to start with, so no vibrations means its virtualy silent. Off course, you can install a vibration/sound device to simulate this if you do feel like you miss the feeling of it, or the silent engine type not attracting much attention of the opposite gender.

Of course, if you are refering to earth moving equipments, trucks, heavy machinery and such, where the power is actualy needed, then i see no problem with your statement like so, but as technology improves, so will the power output to power drain ratio be improved too, and as oil supplies (even if we manage to create synthetic replacement oil of sorts) runs out, or the combustable engine becomes obsolete then things will change.

Although do note that forklifts (which can carry heavy weights, and are dangerously fast in the wrong hands) run from an electric motor, and the one at work just gets its nightly recharge and it goes on all day (6am to 9pm) without fail. So do other forms of machinery

Why do you think scientists of the most technologically advanced countries around the world CHOOSE not to further develop the electric car? Answer: Because there are other, cheaper, and more efficient options.

Dude, go watch some TV. Shows like Beyond Tomorow usualy have frequent articles about electric cars (although the season has ended for this year in australia). Or google a bit. There are still people who are working on electric engines still, and even more people working on hybrids engines, some that include electric/fuel models such as the Toyota Prius. The electric engine is not dead at all, rather that its at a "baby" stage, where its to develope and mature before moving into commercial mass production and the general public's interests.

Please, if you feel the need to prove me or any statement we write down as wrong, do not hesitate to post links or references to articles that support your claim or elaborate more on what you are trying to convey to us and most of us will back down if it proves true.

 

[SNGX1275]

Please, if you feel the need to prove me or any statement we write down as wrong, do not hesitate to post links or references to articles that support your claim or elaborate more on what you are trying to convey to us and most of us will back down if it proves true.

Ok, Just for the sake of argument here. Lets take a look at that pretty advanced car I linked above your post. It costs $80,000 according to page 3. Likely going to be more than that if you want any accessories at all. But we'll say $80,000.

Now lets look at a gasoline powered car that will have similar performance (although the 0-60 is going to be slower). You can pick up one for lets go a little cost heavy here and say $18,000.

So here is what we have:
Electric: $80,000
Gas: $18,000

Now according to the article the electric will run you 2 cents a mile. The arbritary $18,000 car we'll say gets 30mpg (being conservative here, small light cars should get better).

Now lets look at a typical new car lifespan of 200,000 miles (this is disregarding maintence costs - just purely how much it costs in $ to power the vechile).

Gas: 200,000miles/1 * gal/30miles * $3/gal = $20,000 in fuel add that to $18,000 for $38,000
Electric: 200,000miles/1 * $0.02/mile = $4,000 in electricity add that to $80,000 and its $84,000

0.02x + 80,000 = .1x + 18,000
x= 775,000

You would have to drive 775,000miles before it makes economic sense to buy the electric car. Neither vechiles are capable of doing that.

That is why kevin16 said there are other and cheaper methods.

 

[TonyGuitar]

http://tinyurl.com/m5cfv

This link takes you to the full story and 21 + photos on the Tesla Roadster. About $90.000 to buy today.

Their claim is 1 penny per mile running costs.

The math above is interesting and would be more accurate if it included costs of services and supplies that a oil burning vechicle requires beyond Gas fuel purchases like: Oil and oil changes, radiator service, coolants and anti-freeze. Muffler service, mufflers, catalytic converters and tail pipe systems. Transmission service, fluids, and power train services. Fuel injector and ignition and plugs ....Etc etc.

California governor Arnold drove off with a Tesla Roadster. With none of the usual auto services required, the Tesla will save him a fortune in valuable time saved. These cars are a no-brainer for the wealthy. When production numbers climb, prices will drop to where you and I will not be able to resist an EV. = TG

 

[Kevin16]

Kevin16, It*s embarrassing that you refuse to read the link a little.

You will find documented evidence, [photos et al], that an EV easily beat two leading Euro racing cars. Was it Lambourghini and BMW?.. now I have to go look again..= TG

I have read the links and I don't deny that the electric car won the race. However, the electric vehicle is like a capacitor that stores electrical energy and rapidly releases all of it at a given time, whereas a gasoline car is like a battery that gradually uses up its energy. Do you know how cameras get that bright, fraction of a second, flash?

The math above is interesting and would be more accurate if it included costs of services and supplies that a oil burning vechicle requires beyond Gas fuel purchases like: Oil and oil changes, radiator service, coolants and anti-freeze. Muffler service, mufflers, catalytic converters and tail pipe systems. Transmission service, fluids, and power train services. Fuel injector and ignition and plugs ....Etc etc. = TG

Do you know that in the current hybrid vehicle alone, the batteries need to be replaced every 5 or so years and that those batteries are like $5,000? Imagine a vehicle running solely on batteries...

 

[SNGX1275]

About $90.000 to buy today.

Their claim is 1 penny per mile running costs.

The math above is interesting and would be more accurate if it included costs of services and supplies that a oil burning vechicle requires beyond Gas fuel purchases like: Oil and oil changes, radiator service, coolants and anti-freeze. Muffler service, mufflers, catalytic converters and tail pipe systems. Transmission service, fluids, and power train services. Fuel injector and ignition and plugs ....Etc etc.

Well the link I had was 1-2 cents a mile, but in all likely hood they do just what auto manufacturers do when quoting mpg, they find the most ideal situation possible and use that number. So I think in my above calculations using 2cents was the most likely. Don't forget I exagerated the price of the gas car a bit (I'm sure you can get something that gets 30+ mpg new for less than $18,000) and I also was conservative on the mpg mark of 30mpg.

But lets take my numbers a bit further then.

For 200,000 miles it was going to cost the gas car $38,000 and the electric $84,000. Now lets say you put 10,000 miles a year on the vechile, so you drive it 20 years. Now lets pretend you pay $2000 in maintence a year (which is outrageous) for 20 years, and that electric doesn't have any problems (as kevin pointed out thats going to be impossible with batteries). Now the gasoline car gets $40,000 more added to what I earlier calculated.

New revised numbers for if the gasoline car takes maintence and the electric doesn't:
Gas: $78,000
Electric: $84,000

Your pocketbook is still better off with the gas car.

 

[TonyGuitar]

Those figures are not an impossible spread for conditions today.

Personal time is valuable. EV service is likely to be brakes and little else. Oil burner auto service demands attention to dozens of systems, filters, fluids and seasonal winterization. Time is money.

If the deluxe $90,000 240HP Tesla Roadster costs 1 to 1.5 cents per mile to run, how much will the $30,000 120HP 2 door economy model cost to run?

We are at the tipping point. Here come the EVs. Hold on tight. = TG

 

[Kevin16]

Well, all I can say is...Good luck with that!

 

[TonyGuitar]

SNGX and everyone who took part in this Electric Vehicle advenute.. my sincere thanks. This is the best discovery fun run in a long time.

In the beginning I had the idea that nothing was available as I had not seen any advertising or documentary coverage on EVs at all.

My first discovery was the *90 tp 93 GM EV1 and the fact they were only leased and all were recalled [except for one or two whose owners moved and kept their EV1s].

Then, all in a rush, I learned of several other brands of EVs through to the Toyota RAV4 EV and finally the powerful Tesla Roadster.

http://TonyGuitar.blogspot.com

No way do I wish any harm to the people of Iran, but if Israel decides to ignore the decoy Hezbollah leader Nasrallah in Lebanon and decides to hit the real head of Hezbollah, Ahmadinejad in Tehran, Iran, then you can expect the cost of gas to go to $5 - $10.

The demand pressure for Electric Cars will be suddenly focused then.

Refineries cost from 6 to 15 $Billion to build. Big Oil is not about to risk their own cash reserves when Electric is here and Hydrogen is on the horizon. When refineries are so easy to sabotage and more storms like Katrina are likely.

Hello EV.. Nice to meetcha... just in time too. = TG

 

[Kevin16]

you can expect the cost of gas to go to $5 - $10.

AHHHH!!!!!

NO!!!!

I HATE YOU!!!

 

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Electric powered 640 hp Mini

Now, to get that into production...