MaxSmarties
Posts: 559 +326
Yes ridiculous.
Rocket lake will be even more ridiculous, but two wrongs don’t make one right...
CPU and GPU Availability and Pricing Update: March 2021
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- Start date
Rocket lake will be even more ridiculous, but two wrongs don’t make one right...
Peter Kazmir
Posts: 7 +12
"for well over $120"?
Quick check and I found them to mostly be in the $145-150 range, with a couple outliers. I know I'm being pedantic but maybe that could have been phrased better.
Quick check and I found them to mostly be in the $145-150 range, with a couple outliers. I know I'm being pedantic but maybe that could have been phrased better.
Dimitrios
Posts: 1,250 +1,025
The only thing that worries me about the current situation is if my 2080 suddenly dies, whilst still within its RMA 3yr warranty period, I doubt they'd send me a replacement 3xxx equivalent (3060 or 3060Ti??), even if they could and then there is just the pure hassle of having to arrange sending it back..Arggghhh!
Having to live with Intel Integrated graphics for an unknown duration is the stuff of nightmares...I'm really wishing right now that I hadn't sold my old Nvidia 970
Damn I didn't even think about that!
Well, I guess opinions are like butt holes, and all that, but I think you have out of touch expectations. $449 is a reasonable price for 5800X, absolutely so. Which is why I bought one at that price and thinking expectations of any less are unrealistic and overly demanding.
MaxSmarties
Posts: 559 +326
No, it is not.
And here in Europe it costs more than 450€.
For an 8 core it is ridiculous. I know that criticize AMD here is not popular, but I really hope they will take an hit in market share for being greedy.
And just to clarify again: I’m writing from a 5800X.
Oh no, you really are not getting it. Nothing about this is about criticizing AMD. I switch between AMD and Intel without a second thought, accusing bias when none has been shown is unfair and below you, please try to not make assumptions.
And, you fibbed to me. I asked specifically if $299 and $449 was unreasonable price and you said yes... yet THEN tell me that's not even the price you are facing, you are facing 450 Euros which is closer to 500 dollars American, and even I chose not to buy into X5800 at that price.
The 50 dollar drop put it into reasonable territory, but you don't even HAVE that option, so answered my question misleadingly, OR misunderstood the question, which is fair if so.
Are you seriously complaining about a hypothetical situation where your high end card may die on you?The only thing that worries me about the current situation is if my 2080 suddenly dies, whilst still within its RMA 3yr warranty period, I doubt they'd send me a replacement 3xxx equivalent (3060 or 3060Ti??), even if they could and then there is just the pure hassle of having to arrange sending it back..Arggghhh!
Having to live with Intel Integrated graphics for an unknown duration is the stuff of nightmares...I'm really wishing right now that I hadn't sold my old Nvidia 970
How about having some sympathy for people that are stuck with several generations old hardware, and can't even get their hands on anything current due to no availability or outrageous pricing.
DonquixoteIII
Posts: 165 +101
Does anyone think (even for a second) that Huang gives one monkey's butt over how much or even if a gamer can buy a GPU? All of Nvidia's product is sold, often before it is even produced. If anything he probably wishes all of his products were price-inflated like this, and is scheming as to how Nvidia can get more pie.
On the CPU front. Genesis Peak is not even mentioned. Does anyone remember Su stating that all Zen 3 parts would be available in 2020? Epyc's availability is a concern, because it is in the server arena. For those that are unaware, the server end of the sales schtick is the 'business' end. The profitability end. The money end in a money game. Less influential, the workstation end is still quite a good money maker as well, just not on the scale as its server counterparts. However, like this article, it is a 'do not mention' thing. Genesis Peak? Whadat? NO leaks, mentions, nada. Zilch. Does not exist. A google search for 'AMD Threadripper 5970x' for the period of a month returns at most a page, after all the false hits are removed. It is becoming apparent by now that AMD selling off its foundry business wasn't such a good idea. Not that Global Foundry could produce this chip, but having a foundry could at least keep AMD aware of how to make a chip design perform better at such'n'such a process node. It is becoming obvious that at the 7nm node, AMD is NOT executing.
And on AMD's roadmap, 5nm this fall.. Yeah. Right.
Two other things to watch out for in the CPU space.
Gelsinger is now the VP of Intel engineering. What rabbits does he have in his hat? What can he do to replace his own CORE?
And, China wants to dominate the global supply chain for electronics. They want Taiwan. They are poaching TSMC staff at a huge rate, but a 're-unification' would give them the whole foundry, as well as much of the tech that currently drives the electronics business..
On the CPU front. Genesis Peak is not even mentioned. Does anyone remember Su stating that all Zen 3 parts would be available in 2020? Epyc's availability is a concern, because it is in the server arena. For those that are unaware, the server end of the sales schtick is the 'business' end. The profitability end. The money end in a money game. Less influential, the workstation end is still quite a good money maker as well, just not on the scale as its server counterparts. However, like this article, it is a 'do not mention' thing. Genesis Peak? Whadat? NO leaks, mentions, nada. Zilch. Does not exist. A google search for 'AMD Threadripper 5970x' for the period of a month returns at most a page, after all the false hits are removed. It is becoming apparent by now that AMD selling off its foundry business wasn't such a good idea. Not that Global Foundry could produce this chip, but having a foundry could at least keep AMD aware of how to make a chip design perform better at such'n'such a process node. It is becoming obvious that at the 7nm node, AMD is NOT executing.
And on AMD's roadmap, 5nm this fall.. Yeah. Right.
Two other things to watch out for in the CPU space.
Gelsinger is now the VP of Intel engineering. What rabbits does he have in his hat? What can he do to replace his own CORE?
And, China wants to dominate the global supply chain for electronics. They want Taiwan. They are poaching TSMC staff at a huge rate, but a 're-unification' would give them the whole foundry, as well as much of the tech that currently drives the electronics business..
Shadowboxer
Posts: 2,074 +1,655
If you think that’s AMD being “greedy” then you must think Intel is worse? The 5800X is cheaper than a 10900K or the 9900K at launch. The 5000 series is only a premium over AMDs previous line up. People say it should be compared to a 10700K as it’s an 8C16T part. That’s valid and sure the 10700K is better value but at the same time performance wise it sits closer to the more expensive 10850K.
I bought a 5800X, Asus TUF X570 board and 16GB of Adata 3600mhz RAM for £660 in the U.K. (which is Europe, albeit no longer within the crooked EU). I didn’t think that was too bad, I could have saved up to £100 if I went with Intel but those chips are much harder to cool and don’t have PCIe4, something I think makes zero difference today but I think if you want to upgrade your GPU to a top end part in say 3-5 years time could be significant.
Okay, let me correct this part right here. IF China tries to take Taiwan, you won't be buying ANYTHING from China for awhile. That is war, and the US is ready to fight that war. And if you think Taiwan's factories will be in ANY condition to make chips in the middle of a war with China, you are extremely misled.
Even if China won, which is worst than uncertain, more like HIGHLY unlikely, but even then, chip making fabs will be down, and possibly destroyed. China has NO reputation yet for precision warfare and has demonstrated ZERO experience in handling a "low collateral damage campaign". Do you have ANY idea how long it took the US to get to the point where we actually CAN minimize collateral casualties? And it's still not perfect! China has zero experience doing this. Taiwan would be a blood bath and become a broken country.
Here is what happens if China succeeded in taking Taiwan...
First, 90% of the necessary personnel who worked in those chip factories would have been evacuated to the US, as well as the logistical support personnel who supply the underside of the chip business to get them out from threat of Chinese capture. The US did so with German scientists to prevent Russian capture of them, we have a history of exporting experts from countries that are about to fall.
When the Taiwanese government can no longer hold out and for theory sakes, the US gives up trying to hold Taiwan and China takes it... Too bad for China. A majority of the higher educated Taiwanese are on their way to new lives in the US, expensive chip fab equipment snatched from the factory floor by Army engineers with the help of those outgoing chip makers.
By the time Taiwan falls in this scenario, China gets a gutted island and a bunch of angry people waiting to make their lives hell trying to get control of them. Taiwanese love their protests, and the CCP loves to kill protestors, it will not be calm OR productive on that island for years to come. Nothing will be produced there for Chinese benefit for a decade minimum.
First, 90% of the necessary personnel who worked in those chip factories would have been evacuated to the US, as well as the logistical support personnel who supply the underside of the chip business to get them out from threat of Chinese capture. The US did so with German scientists to prevent Russian capture of them, we have a history of exporting experts from countries that are about to fall.
When the Taiwanese government can no longer hold out and for theory sakes, the US gives up trying to hold Taiwan and China takes it... Too bad for China. A majority of the higher educated Taiwanese are on their way to new lives in the US, expensive chip fab equipment snatched from the factory floor by Army engineers with the help of those outgoing chip makers.
By the time Taiwan falls in this scenario, China gets a gutted island and a bunch of angry people waiting to make their lives hell trying to get control of them. Taiwanese love their protests, and the CCP loves to kill protestors, it will not be calm OR productive on that island for years to come. Nothing will be produced there for Chinese benefit for a decade minimum.
DonquixoteIII
Posts: 165 +101
I think that you may overestimate the US's willingness to lose a few milion young people, as well as a few trillion in ships. The Chinese Navy may not be a good match, but their missiles... Well.
The US USED to maintain bases in Taiwan, I served a tour over there.. But once out of 'Nam, they closed those bases, and have not been doing much sabre-rattling regarding Taiwan since. If the EU don't shut out Chinese product, and agree to a 'reconciled' Taiwan, in the UN, then the US won't have many willing to join a coalition. Trump's insults will still be a sore point over much of the world.
While I would LIKE to think that the US would take in all of the Taiwanese population that wanted to leave, the reality is that the US is not in the best position to do so at the moment. And TSMC has made some moves, particularily under Trump, but those were more show than actually doing something. Your bravado is very patriotic, but I am more a real politic type.
And I think you are not a veteran and aware of how much the US has invested in Taiwan defense and clearly speaking on topics you have little knowledge of.
You have not read this year's US Navy report on China's focus on Taiwan or you wouldn't be saying anything close to what you just said. The US Marines are completely reconfiguring their battle doctrine over this EXACT issue. The US Navy is ramping up for war with China over Taiwan right now...
Direct quote from US Navy report to Congress 2021:
The US Navy in recent years has taken a number of actions to counter China's naval modernization effort. Among other things, the US Navy has:
1. Shifted a greater percentage of it's fleet to the Pacific.
2. Assigned it's most capable new ships and aircraft and it's best personnel to the Pacific.
3. Maintained or increased general presence operations, training, and developmental exercises, and engagement and cooperation with allied and other navies in the Indo-Pacific.
4. Increased the planned future size of the Navy.
5. Initiated, increased, or accelerated numerous programs for developing new military technologies and acquiring new ships, aircraft, unmanned vehicles, and weapons.
6. Begun development of new operational concepts (ie., new ways to deploy Navy and Marine Corps) to counter A2/AD forces (A2/AD = Anti-area/Area Denial, standard over-arching Chinese doctrine to face US forces)
7. Signaled that the Navy in the coming years will shift to a more distributed fleet architecture that will feature a smaller portion of larger ships, a larger portion of smaller ships, and a substantially greater use of unmanned vehicles.
End quote.
Now, for reference, this is just a tiny excerpt from the report, however it goes on describe how the US Navy and Marine Corps are prepping for this exact fight and expect it to begin. IF China escalates to armed conflict with Taiwan at all, the US is right in the mix from the beginning. You cannot separate the two strategically speaking. US forces are in Taiwan, unofficially, but in large numbers, approximately 30,000 various support MOS mostly, but some combat personnel.
Lastly, lets call it what it is. You said "reunification", that is propaganda BS. It would be invasion of a sovereign nation and one of our allies. Taiwan does not consider such a scenario reunification, they consider it OCCUPATION! Any attempt by the CCP to invade Taiwan will be treated as such. An invasion to be repelled and all hands on deck. Do you think China won't hit every US and Japanese facility within reach as the opening act of such a move? Of course they would... and it would draw in everybody instead of scaring them off. That is how Pacific wars work. Knock out blows don't work, they always piss the other side off to come back harder.
The US Navy in recent years has taken a number of actions to counter China's naval modernization effort. Among other things, the US Navy has:
1. Shifted a greater percentage of it's fleet to the Pacific.
2. Assigned it's most capable new ships and aircraft and it's best personnel to the Pacific.
3. Maintained or increased general presence operations, training, and developmental exercises, and engagement and cooperation with allied and other navies in the Indo-Pacific.
4. Increased the planned future size of the Navy.
5. Initiated, increased, or accelerated numerous programs for developing new military technologies and acquiring new ships, aircraft, unmanned vehicles, and weapons.
6. Begun development of new operational concepts (ie., new ways to deploy Navy and Marine Corps) to counter A2/AD forces (A2/AD = Anti-area/Area Denial, standard over-arching Chinese doctrine to face US forces)
7. Signaled that the Navy in the coming years will shift to a more distributed fleet architecture that will feature a smaller portion of larger ships, a larger portion of smaller ships, and a substantially greater use of unmanned vehicles.
End quote.
Now, for reference, this is just a tiny excerpt from the report, however it goes on describe how the US Navy and Marine Corps are prepping for this exact fight and expect it to begin. IF China escalates to armed conflict with Taiwan at all, the US is right in the mix from the beginning. You cannot separate the two strategically speaking. US forces are in Taiwan, unofficially, but in large numbers, approximately 30,000 various support MOS mostly, but some combat personnel.
Lastly, lets call it what it is. You said "reunification", that is propaganda BS. It would be invasion of a sovereign nation and one of our allies. Taiwan does not consider such a scenario reunification, they consider it OCCUPATION! Any attempt by the CCP to invade Taiwan will be treated as such. An invasion to be repelled and all hands on deck. Do you think China won't hit every US and Japanese facility within reach as the opening act of such a move? Of course they would... and it would draw in everybody instead of scaring them off. That is how Pacific wars work. Knock out blows don't work, they always piss the other side off to come back harder.
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NoLifeDGenerate
Posts: 47 +27
People have been on about this mining garbage for 10 years or more now. If nVidia and AMD gave a ****, they would've expanded manufacturing by now, and/or taken steps to keep prices where they set them. Scalpers might still get away with outrageous pricing on ebay, but you don't see NewEgg etc jacking up the prices on Xboxes or PS5s because that MSRP is strictly enforced if they want to keep selling them.
Clearly, all the companies are at fault and just shifting the blame around. What ever happened to that lawsuit against the RAM manufacturers for price fixing etc? We had the same crazy **** going on with RAM prices a few years back and there was some evidence that the chip makers were literally keeping production low on purpose to keep prices high. The oil companies do the same thing manipulating gas prices constantly.
Clearly, all the companies are at fault and just shifting the blame around. What ever happened to that lawsuit against the RAM manufacturers for price fixing etc? We had the same crazy **** going on with RAM prices a few years back and there was some evidence that the chip makers were literally keeping production low on purpose to keep prices high. The oil companies do the same thing manipulating gas prices constantly.
"One factor that’s playing into this is that AMD is about to launch new Epyc CPUs, which use the exact same 7nm chiplets as the Ryzen 5000 desktop line-up. As we know from the binning process, some of these chiplets are better than others, and on the desktop line, generally these better chiplets go into higher-end, higher clocked parts like the 5950X, leaving the lesser quality silicon for say, a 5800X if all CPU cores are intact."
I don't think that's the issue. They have a SHORTAGE. If I'm AMD, and I know the biggest selling part is going to be the 5600X, and then next the 5800X, going by statistical data from Zen 2, then I want to get those out because that's what most people want. Sure, I may miss the sale of a 5900X, but by not making 2 chiplet Ryzen parts, I have more chiplets for the other CPUs. But, I highly doubt that I would miss a sale of the 5900X or 5950X if that's what a person really wants, because Intel has nothing that compares with those parts, based on the assumption these aren't really gaming CPUs, even though they game just fine.
Next, when it comes to binning, I don't believe the chiplets binned for the 5950X are the same as for EPYC CPUs. EPYC CPUs aren't clocked anywhere CLOSE to Ryzen. Threadripper parts are, but not EPYC. With EPYC, you want chiplets that have the best efficiency at a lower clock speed. With these Ryzen parts, there isn't much difference between the 5600X going all the way up to the 5950X with clock speeds. Sure, the 5950X is supposed to have a max boost on a single core around 5GHz, even though it's advertised at less. So, the 5600X isn't the best binned of the bunch for Ryzen, but the difference between the 5800X up to the 5950X is small. What will be the top clock speeds for EPYC? It won't be like that. Their base frequency is typically 500 MHz or more slower than Ryzen. For Zen 2 EPYC, their boost, MAX boost is typically around 3.5GHz, with variation across the product stack. I could post reviews from LTT that show this. So, why would I want a part the clocks up to 4.9GHz for EPYC???? No, they aren't binned the same, for EPYC, I need chiplets that have the best power efficiency at the base clock that's listed for the part, and that still have good power efficiency at Max boost. It's possible that some chiplets will be the best at both running at 4.9GHz and also have the best power efficiency around the base clock for EPYC, but it's still different binning. I don't care that an EPYC chiplet can't hit 4.8GHz. I care about it being the most power efficient at 3.1 - 3.3GHz because power efficiency is everything to server farms that sound like a wind tunnel because of the AC trying to keep the servers cools.
Anyway, back to Ryzen, I make more money by selling 2 5800Xs than selling a single 5900X, so to get the max out of my chiplets, I make 2 5800Xs. And, based on Zen 2 data, there just isn't that many people who are going to buy the 5950X. Most people that need that many cores also need more PCIe lanes for storage, expansion cards, etc... The 3950X was I believe the lowest selling part for Zen2 Ryzen. It's cool for reviewers to review, but even reviewers talk about editing rigs being either Intel Zeon systems if they haven't upgraded, or Zen 2 Threadripper. Yes there are a handful that have something else, but that's the jist of it.
I don't think that's the issue. They have a SHORTAGE. If I'm AMD, and I know the biggest selling part is going to be the 5600X, and then next the 5800X, going by statistical data from Zen 2, then I want to get those out because that's what most people want. Sure, I may miss the sale of a 5900X, but by not making 2 chiplet Ryzen parts, I have more chiplets for the other CPUs. But, I highly doubt that I would miss a sale of the 5900X or 5950X if that's what a person really wants, because Intel has nothing that compares with those parts, based on the assumption these aren't really gaming CPUs, even though they game just fine.
Next, when it comes to binning, I don't believe the chiplets binned for the 5950X are the same as for EPYC CPUs. EPYC CPUs aren't clocked anywhere CLOSE to Ryzen. Threadripper parts are, but not EPYC. With EPYC, you want chiplets that have the best efficiency at a lower clock speed. With these Ryzen parts, there isn't much difference between the 5600X going all the way up to the 5950X with clock speeds. Sure, the 5950X is supposed to have a max boost on a single core around 5GHz, even though it's advertised at less. So, the 5600X isn't the best binned of the bunch for Ryzen, but the difference between the 5800X up to the 5950X is small. What will be the top clock speeds for EPYC? It won't be like that. Their base frequency is typically 500 MHz or more slower than Ryzen. For Zen 2 EPYC, their boost, MAX boost is typically around 3.5GHz, with variation across the product stack. I could post reviews from LTT that show this. So, why would I want a part the clocks up to 4.9GHz for EPYC???? No, they aren't binned the same, for EPYC, I need chiplets that have the best power efficiency at the base clock that's listed for the part, and that still have good power efficiency at Max boost. It's possible that some chiplets will be the best at both running at 4.9GHz and also have the best power efficiency around the base clock for EPYC, but it's still different binning. I don't care that an EPYC chiplet can't hit 4.8GHz. I care about it being the most power efficient at 3.1 - 3.3GHz because power efficiency is everything to server farms that sound like a wind tunnel because of the AC trying to keep the servers cools.
Anyway, back to Ryzen, I make more money by selling 2 5800Xs than selling a single 5900X, so to get the max out of my chiplets, I make 2 5800Xs. And, based on Zen 2 data, there just isn't that many people who are going to buy the 5950X. Most people that need that many cores also need more PCIe lanes for storage, expansion cards, etc... The 3950X was I believe the lowest selling part for Zen2 Ryzen. It's cool for reviewers to review, but even reviewers talk about editing rigs being either Intel Zeon systems if they haven't upgraded, or Zen 2 Threadripper. Yes there are a handful that have something else, but that's the jist of it.
elementalSG
Posts: 270 +481
The only thing that worries me about the current situation is if my 2080 suddenly dies, whilst still within its RMA 3yr warranty period, I doubt they'd send me a replacement 3xxx equivalent (3060 or 3060Ti??), even if they could and then there is just the pure hassle of having to arrange sending it back..Arggghhh!
Having to live with Intel Integrated graphics for an unknown duration is the stuff of nightmares...I'm really wishing right now that I hadn't sold my old Nvidia 970
Dunno if this makes you feel better, but my RTX 2080 Ti died a month ago while still in the 3 year warranty period and although the RMA process was painful and took hours to complete, NVidia did swiftly send me a replacement RTX 2080 Ti within a week
NoLifeDGenerate
Posts: 47 +27
That's just an excuse for gouging. They cost the same to make regardless of demand, and people shouldn't be reselling them for double the price.
DonquixoteIII
Posts: 165 +101
Mate, you crossed a line there... I pent 4 years in 'Nam. and eighteen months in Taiwan at CCK (Ching Chaun Kang) airbase just outside Taichung. I still have good friends there, we have kept in touch these many years. Quit ****-talking. Nee boo ha.
I stated that the US has no bases in Taiwan. They don't. There is considerable concern among the population about that, the US has been invited to open up a base ever since the US pulled out. So, to use the vernacular, the locals are concerned that the US has no skin in the game. Talk is cheap. Defending your position isn't.
NoLifeDGenerate
Posts: 47 +27
Why is every little country our ****ing problem? It's getting really old watching our corrupt politicians send money to Israel and other places, send Americans to die in the middle east for no good reason, and populate all these bases around the world dividing up families for no real reason all the while ignoring the infrastructure and other problems at home where that money could be better spent.
I ask you one question in response to your question, then I can better answer you... and I DO have an answer. However, my answer will be based on your answer.
Have you ever served the United States in active duty, reserve, Coast Guard, or National Guard?
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Bullcrap. There are no US bases, there are troops scattered across the country at various Taiwanese bases doing training almost constantly. 30,000 is a peak number, yes, but it is factual during exercises with Taiwan.
Bud, I will put my DD214 against yours anyday. You sound clueless. What was your MOS, mechanic? Cook? Pfffft, don't talk to me, leg. Put some jumps under your belt, spend a few months training at Benning, than we talk, otherwise you're full of it.
NoLifeDGenerate
Posts: 47 +27
Hell no, and there's nothing that could ever get me to sign up. They still fight "wars" like it's the 19th century instead of just bombing the piss out of anyone that screws with us until they can't screw with anyone anymore and walking away. Troops on the ground should NOT be necessary in the 21st century. The only reason they still do it is so certain people can make billions on rebuilding while soldiers get used as cops and die every day for no reason.
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