Elon Musk issues ultimatum to Tesla: give me more shares or AI and robotics development...

Talk about needing to read more and talk less - perhaps you should follow your own advice. For instance, read this https://www.dsf.my/2024/01/volkswagen-outsells-tesla-in-german-ev-market-tough-times-ahead/
I have long said that when the adult automakers bring their EVs to market, Tesla will be in for some very difficult competition. Not to mention that Tesla's are nothing but pure **** IMO! Personally, I've just bought a 2024 Toyota Prius Prime - I could have bought a low-end Tesla for that amount, but Musk would have to pay me to buy one - even then, I'd turn around and sell it.

And to the bean counters that think its Twitter that is behind the animosity towards Musk, I've never had Twitter account, and never will. :p不 不 不不不不不不
The prius prime is and excellent choice, in fact it is the best prius that Toyota has ever produced by any measurable metric (also properly well styled with non laughable driving dynamics for the first time ever). Which is only the case because they're losing vast swathes of their once lucrative midsized market to Tesla, the prius had to be better because the game has clearly moved on leaving Toyota behind. The model Y has outsold the Corolla worldwide after only 3 full model years on sale (released in 2020 mid year). They did in 3 years what it took Toyota and Honda over a decade to do from the 70's to 80's and the Japanese manufacturers had the advantage of a fuel crisis and an apathetic western public well fed up with the preposterously low reliability of western vehicles (British leyland anyone) The numbers are in and the only profitable EV makers are Tesla and BYD (possibly a few other Chinese brands with razor thin break evens but Chinese data is rather spotty at best. To be clear though the prius has never been profitable, it only exists as a sideshow to Toyota's ICE sales which subsidize its existence.

Personally I'm a dyed in the wool German car snob, specifically my affliction centers around 80's, 90's and 2000's Benz's. Which is why I follow the Euro space car markets very closely from an enthusiast to a "bean counter" view. Anywhere you look right now you have analysts predicting VW groups bankruptcy, their current strategy is to rebrand xpeng vehicles as VW and attempt to skip past EU import bans on some creative assembly and branding shenanigans (which I wholly support where legislation is nonsense) but it won't work as EU regulators are already tightening the loopholes. Till now this has worked as The Germans are historically most patriotically loyal car buyers on earth, even beating out The US, France and Italy. The fact that Tesla is as close as they are in that market is not a black eye, it is laudable accolade as they've outstripped BMW and are breathing down the neck of Mercedes (the worlds oldest car maker). Year on year they're up triple digit percentages in many markets, I simply don't know how you keep interpreting the data as it's inverse.

There are no "Adults" in the room and the "competition" is not coming, the game has ended and the winners are divvying up the spoils. Tesla is sat on around 30 Billion USD of cash and cash equivalents while pushing forward in every segment while ramping up production capacity. VW and Toyota are sat on well over 100 Billion in debt each with vanishing sales and no serious plans, layoffs and early retirements of 10's of thousands of VW workers speak to this while Toyota dreams of solid state batteries that only exist in their press releases. Toyota's only serious EV the BZ4x has been recalled, repackaged and relaunched a dozen times now across 10-15 markets and no one is buying it as the reviewers have shrugged their shoulders and simply said "Meh?". I will link episode of the "The smoking tire Podcast" where Jason Camisa and Matt Farah have a thoroughly adult and entertaining discussion about all of these topics in a much more entertaining and communicative manner than I could broach. Farah is a good dude and I've followed his stuff for well over a decade but he like so many has been taken in by this grand narrative of Musk being some type of Bond villain.


This one covers the basics of the current Tesla drama in greater detail, his statements are accurate at time of posting and can be easily verified.
 
I'm willing to read more from you Scott. I'm still not sure which parts of which comments you are alleging are untrue as written.

I agree with you that Musk has achieved great accomplishments, and that the lack of defined compensation plan is unusual and against policy. However I'm not sure either point is what's under dispute in the article or comments.

Going just by the TechSpot headline - which of course could differ substantially from the actual full, real events - the issue I see is not that Musk thinks he should be handsomely compensated for his achievements, but the manner in which he is presenting the bill.

A legitimate way to ask for more money: "It is time to update my compensation agreement. In light of what I have done, will do, and the other opportunities I have, my fee to continue as Tesla's CEO is <whatever he wants to ask for, including lots of additional shares>". At that point it would be up to the board to pay the fee for his services, or choose another CEO.

To my mind a very illegitimate way to do it is to say: "I am currently the CEO of public company Tesla and do not plan on relinquishing that position and the control it entails. However, if you do not pay me the additional shares I am now demanding, I will retaliate by purposely not performing that role to the best of my ability, nor allowing Tesla to fully realize its potential, and specifically I will terminate our R&D in AI and Robotics even when there is obvious opportunity there and the investing public expects these efforts to continue."

The first is normal. The second is not, and potentially actionable IMO (although again TechSpot headline != whole story.)
That pretty much sums it up, the weird I was referring to is the framing of his suggested moves regarding AI/robotics in the face of his obviously conflicting position as CEO of Tesla. His concern seems to be regarding securing the company against hostile investing parties though it is still developing and we really don't seem to have gotten the rights of it all yet. There are some similarities to the weirdness regarding Sam Altman and Open (Closed and for profit now apparently) AI.

Basically they're going to have to get something hammered out compensation wise sooner rather than later simply to have it on the books. What that actually looks like we don't yet know but media on all sides seem content to frame it in the least nuanced light. As always Musk and his enterprises do everything quite a bit more openly than most folks are used to and that is leaving much to interpretation.

Realistically Musk and his companies are going to have to start looking at a structural change of some sort to retain his leadership and engineering prowess while removing the clearly present conflicts of interest (might help to bring the temperature in the room down regarding his colorful commentaries as well). The US taxpayer has a lot invested in various Musk lead companies and as such they need to demonstrate the requisite stability, doing this while maintaining the breakneck pace of Tesla and SpaceX might be causing some of what we're seeing here as well.
 
I'm with Elon on this one. The Tesla board needs to remember who their founder and primary shareholder is. This b!tch-slap is exactly what they need to remember what their place is..
Musk did not found Tesla - as others have pointed out in this thread. Do some research; this knowledge is in the public domain and is easy enough for anyone to find out.

In point of fact, Musk is a total fraud in this case. His "deal" to inject his "money" into Tesla included Musk being able to put his name on all the Tesla patents and outright PRETEND to have invented Tesla vehicles when he did no such thing.

And perhaps we should cover other Musk accomplishments with Tesla and others:
1. First "self-driving" vehicles to ram into parked, no less, emergency vehicles.
2. Fist to launch, each time, an exploding space ship - the "Starship"
3. First to propose a mass transit system, which, BTW, was shown in the SCIENCE FICTION series Babylon 5 in the mid 1990's, that has now failed.
4. First to propose an untenable way to rescue small boys from a flooded tunnel, and then when it was rejected by someone obviously far more knowledgeable than the King of Mars himself, throw yet another hissy fit and call a true hero a "pedophile".

When all is said and done, perhaps the only vestige of Tesla that will be left is the power connector.

And to inject some humor into this raucous discussion -


Yet another comment thread soon to be locked. :rolleyes:
 
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The prius prime is and excellent choice, in fact it is the best prius that Toyota has ever produced by any measurable metric (also properly well styled with non laughable driving dynamics for the first time ever). Which is only the case because they're losing vast swathes of their once lucrative midsized market to Tesla, the prius had to be better because the game has clearly moved on leaving Toyota behind. The model Y has outsold the Corolla worldwide after only 3 full model years on sale (released in 2020 mid year). They did in 3 years what it took Toyota and Honda over a decade to do from the 70's to 80's and the Japanese manufacturers had the advantage of a fuel crisis and an apathetic western public well fed up with the preposterously low reliability of western vehicles (British leyland anyone) The numbers are in and the only profitable EV makers are Tesla and BYD (possibly a few other Chinese brands with razor thin break evens but Chinese data is rather spotty at best. To be clear though the prius has never been profitable, it only exists as a sideshow to Toyota's ICE sales which subsidize its existence.

Personally I'm a dyed in the wool German car snob, specifically my affliction centers around 80's, 90's and 2000's Benz's. Which is why I follow the Euro space car markets very closely from an enthusiast to a "bean counter" view. Anywhere you look right now you have analysts predicting VW groups bankruptcy, their current strategy is to rebrand xpeng vehicles as VW and attempt to skip past EU import bans on some creative assembly and branding shenanigans (which I wholly support where legislation is nonsense) but it won't work as EU regulators are already tightening the loopholes. Till now this has worked as The Germans are historically most patriotically loyal car buyers on earth, even beating out The US, France and Italy. The fact that Tesla is as close as they are in that market is not a black eye, it is laudable accolade as they've outstripped BMW and are breathing down the neck of Mercedes (the worlds oldest car maker). Year on year they're up triple digit percentages in many markets, I simply don't know how you keep interpreting the data as it's inverse.

There are no "Adults" in the room and the "competition" is not coming, the game has ended and the winners are divvying up the spoils.
Get back to me when Toyota puts their solid-state battery into production, and still, even then, claim that "There is no competition coming". It's obvious to me that you did not read the article I linked, because if you did, you would have noticed that VW, yes, VW, no less, took the lead from the King of Mars and Tesla in overall EV sales in Germany for 2023. Perhaps that's because Teslas in reality, are no where near reliable.

Don't believe that? How about this one - https://www.techradar.com/vehicle-t...v-maker-heres-what-you-need-to-know-about-byd

Don't bother to read that one, either, it might shatter your view point since it points to the fact that Tesla is no longer the world's largest EV maker.

And BTW - my 2006 Prius paid for itself in Gas savings even though it was a "Girly Car".

Spout your opinions (you do know what Dirty Harry said about opinions, I assume) all you want, but the tide is turning . The bigger they are, the harder they fall, and all the King of Mars will be able to do about it is throw yet another Hissy Fit.

I'm not debating you any more. Its obvious to me that your vision is clouded and you wear glasses. I don't fight others that wear glasses. 不

Tesla - the Edsel of the new millennium.
 
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Get back to me when Toyota puts their solid-state battery into production, and still, even then, claim that "There is no competition coming". It's obvious to me that you did not read the article I linked, because if you did, you would have noticed that VW, yes, VW, no less, took the lead from the King of Mars and Tesla in overall EV sales in Germany for 2023. Perhaps that's because Teslas in reality, are no where near reliable.

Don't believe that? How about this one - https://www.techradar.com/vehicle-t...v-maker-heres-what-you-need-to-know-about-byd

Don't bother to read that one, either, it might shatter your view point since it points to the fact that Tesla is no longer the world's largest EV maker.

And BTW - my 2006 Prius paid for itself in Gas savings even though it was a "Girly Car".

Spout your opinions (you do know what Dirty Harry said about opinions, I assume) all you want, but the tide is turning . The bigger they are, the harder they fall, and all the King of Mars will be able to do about it is throw yet another Hissy Fit.

I'm not debating you any more. Its obvious to me that your vision is clouded and you wear glasses. I don't fight others that wear glasses. 不

Tesla - the Edsel of the new millennium.
Let me explain something about the automotive industry, most car companies do not R&D their own vehicles. They outsource it to another company, whether that be Bosch in Germany for all of the electronics and safety systems or Takata in Japan for similar systems. This has led to a mess for these companies to try to adapt to vertically integrated upstarts like Rivian, Tesla etc... These so called competitors are still trying to get their houses in order regarding reshoring and centralizing of parts supply. Jim Farley of Ford has talked about this openly and transparently which is why Ford is miles ahead of the other US OEM's, they have identified the problem and are sorting it out.

None of the points such as this that I made 6 months ago have been proven incorrect, the Tesla model Y is the top selling car on the planet. This is a fact, it is not arguable of contextualizable it simply is. This will most likely change as you cited BYD is coming to eat everyone's lunch because of course they are as they're the beneficiary of the rather interesting Chinese system. I mentioned BYD in several comments many months ago as I follow the Australian automotive sector quite closely as it is an excellent microcosm for the Western markets as a whole being a commonwealth country close at hand to Chinese markets.

I read all citations folks spend time directing my way, it is the only responsible option.

I never said a prius or certainly you're prius was a "girly" car, I said it was a "geeky" car in general reference to where it was perceived in the market by the general public and that Tesla (as lead by Musk) changed the public perception of EV's toward being the desirable sexy option for the future consumer. I personally don't care about how a vehicle is perceived, as I've mentioned I was the guy showing up at weekend auto cross events in a 2007 Toyota Corolla stick shift from 2008 till 2013 (when I bought my gently used 2009 C class stick shift).

My Father is a retired Electrical Engineer who worked for Newfoundland Light and power for nearly 50 years from 1970 to 2016 during which the provincial grid was completely modernized with the basis being hydro electricity as well as being privatized like all Canadian infrastructure of note in this period. His 3 favorite quotes which my sister and I heard many thousands of times are as follows:

"When you assume you make an *** out of you and me."

"I do wish we could be better strangers."

"Do endeavor not to speak so loosely."

That last one is the foundation for my response style and likely what has most shaped my neurocognitive space. Which begs the question of how could I even tolerate someone like Musk? The answer is that he is a necessary evil to shake loose the complacency and stagnation in the industries he occupies. If he just stopped posting anything publicly we would all be more content in the tech enthusiast space but we'd also be rather more blind to the complete lack of innovation happening in most spaces.

My glasses are blueish, which is my preferred cant though it is always open to change based upon new data sets.

Musk has referred to Tesla as his child and Henry Ford named the Edsel after his son so I suppose there's a connection there. One didn't sell and the other can't be manufactured fast enough though so there's that.
 
Musk did not found Tesla - as others have pointed out in this thread. Do some research; this knowledge is in the public domain and is easy enough for anyone to find out.

In point of fact, Musk is a total fraud in this case. His "deal" to inject his "money" into Tesla included Musk being able to put his name on all the Tesla patents and outright PRETEND to have invented Tesla vehicles when he did no such thing.

And perhaps we should cover other Musk accomplishments with Tesla and others:
1. First "self-driving" vehicles to ram into parked, no less, emergency vehicles.
2. Fist to launch, each time, an exploding space ship - the "Starship"
3. First to propose a mass transit system, which, BTW, was shown in the SCIENCE FICTION series Babylon 5 in the mid 1990's, that has now failed.
4. First to propose an untenable way to rescue small boys from a flooded tunnel, and then when it was rejected by someone obviously far more knowledgeable than the King of Mars himself, throw yet another hissy fit and call a true hero a "pedophile".

When all is said and done, perhaps the only vestige of Tesla that will be left is the power connector.

And to inject some humor into this raucous discussion -


Yet another comment thread soon to be locked. :rolleyes:

This is the first production automobile, it is why I drive a Benz and why most people that do never go back to something else. They're just built better. However this does not mean that anyone else making cars afterward is a fraud, it is called iteration. If two kids start a lemonade stand and it goes nowhere for a decade on the same curb getting ever closer to bankruptcy it isn't a viable business. However if one of the kids parents steps in with capital to expand the lemonade stand and add iced tea to the menu as well as smoothies and other beverages while bringing on other kids to and parents to expand the stand to other locations in the neighborhood and town it becomes a business. If the two kids who started the stand then decide they're no longer interested in the beverage business as it has become far too complex for them and they realize they're out of their depth so they sell their stake in the business to the first parent then it is capitalism. Moral of the story is hate the game not the player, or don't it works rather quite well when watched half closely. The origins of Tesla are all public, legal and transparent, not liking it doesn't make it fraud it makes it reality.

Really you're sure you can't stand the company that publicly posts this to their own social media? Let us not forget that Starship outweighs the Saturn V by over double, this literally is the bleeding edge of rocket science and worse comes to worse get some popcorn and your beverage of choice to watch them blow **** up!

B5 The road home is really quite good, caps off many of the story arcs of the series that they never had the time or budget to get to in the way that Straczynski wanted to in period. The original voice cast (those still with us at least) really do great work here.
 
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Except he didn't start it, he only provided most of the initial cash.
Yes, which is why it is quite weird except when viewed from the perspective of positioning to bulwark against an influx of hostile investment parties.
 
I say give him ALL the shares and stop AI and robotics development.
 
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What is more amazing is the sandy & salty responses here.

The amount of anger, doom and hatred? of Elon, is illustrative of how badly he wounded many of you with Twitter. It also explains why many of the responses are so fragile.

Real simple, it is Elon's Company, he started it.
So Yes..! Elon is actually threatening his own Company too "take it or leave it" type-air to his position.

The Board knows what He means when he says "I have rockets and Ai to build..."


Gr0k got u.

They are part of the "Triggered" generation. You know. They have more than I do, so it's not fair. We need to stand in front of traffic and protest. We have one messed up generation of takers.

They need to quit complaining, start their own companies, take responsibility.
 

This is the first production automobile, it is why I drive a Benz and why most people that do never go back to something else. They're just built better. However this does not mean that anyone else making cars afterward is a fraud, it is called iteration. If two kids start a lemonade stand and it goes nowhere for a decade on the same curb getting ever closer to bankruptcy it isn't a viable business. However if one of the kids parents steps in with capital to expand the lemonade stand and add iced tea to the menu as well as smoothies and other beverages while bringing on other kids to and parents to expand the stand to other locations in the neighborhood and town it becomes a business. If the two kids who started the stand then decide they're no longer interested in the beverage business as it has become far too complex for them and they realize they're out of their depth so they sell their stake in the business to the first parent then it is capitalism. Moral of the story is hate the game not the player, or don't it works rather quite well when watched half closely. The origins of Tesla are all public, legal and transparent, not liking it doesn't make it fraud it makes it reality.

Really you're sure you can't stand the company that publicly posts this to their own social media? Let us not forget that Starship outweighs the Saturn V by over double, this literally is the bleeding edge of rocket science and worse comes to worse get some popcorn and your beverage of choice to watch them blow **** up!

B5 The road home is really quite good, caps off many of the story arcs of the series that they never had the time or budget to get to in the way that Straczynski wanted to in period. The original voice cast (those still with us at least) really do great work here.

Buy a Honda or Toyota, rarely ever be sorry, and rarely ever be paying repair bills.
 
Surprised at the level of hate for Elon. His work has benefitted MILLIONS of people and generated billions in commerce. By far the majority of the hate is due to his shift in political stance once he came to the realization the left is wrong about their misguided passions and he exposed it. Nothing tees off the left more than exposing their lies and delusions.
 
What is more amazing is the sandy & salty responses here.

The amount of anger, doom and hatred? of Elon, is illustrative of how badly he wounded many of you with Twitter. It also explains why many of the responses are so fragile.

Real simple, it is Elon's Company, he started it.
So Yes..! Elon is actually threatening his own Company too "take it or leave it" type-air to his position.

The Board knows what He means when he says "I have rockets and Ai to build..."


Gr0k got u.

Actually he didn't start it. It was started by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning (both engineers) in mid 2003. Musk invested heavily in the company in early 2004 and was made CEO in 2008.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.

It's a fallacy that Musk is this brilliant inventor that founds companies with the purpose of bringing his inventions/concepts to market. Instead he has most often recognized other's efforts at an extremely early stage and supported them with heavy investments. Often eventually leading to a pivotal role in the company that was spawned.

Don't get me wrong, that's still quite laudable. But he's more a capitalist angel investor and the face of the companies he becomes involved with than a technology genius. And up to a certain point he had every reason to be proud of everything he had brought about with his efforts.

But there was always an underlying sense for many (myself included) that his ego was out of control and that he had narcissistic leanings. Things like his concepts and comments about the rescue efforts of the kids trapped in the cave only reinforced this.

Then came twitter. In every sense of the word it's been a meltdown and hissy fit of herculean proportions. Like virtually everyone he's shown that he has feet of clay. His biggest failing is he believed and still believes his own press. In the end like many before him (Jobs comes to mind), his hubris will be and currently is his undoing.
 
How is this even an ultimatum? Tesla is a car company. I daresay the stock holders likely have zero... ZERO... interest in having them start making robotics or AI systems. If Musk wants to dabble in robotics or AI, he can start a company to do so (... or not, I don't know how much cash on hand he has, as opposed to it being tied up in stock he doesn't wish to sell.)
 
How is this even an ultimatum? Tesla is a car company. I daresay the stock holders likely have zero... ZERO... interest in having them start making robotics or AI systems. If Musk wants to dabble in robotics or AI, he can start a company to do so (... or not, I don't know how much cash on hand he has, as opposed to it being tied up in stock he doesn't wish to sell.)
Tesla currently relies on robotics and AI for manufacturing and marketing, such as "Full Self Driving". He is threatening to reduce the value of the company if he is not paid a ransom. Show me another public company CEO making any similar threats.
 
but he's South African in reality
He also has Canadian citizenship. "A member of the wealthy South African Musk family, Elon was born in Pretoria and briefly attended the University of Pretoria before immigrating to Canada at age 18, acquiring citizenship through his Canadian-born mother. He moved to California in 1995 to attend Stanford University. However, Musk dropped out after two days and, with his brother Kimbal, co-founded online city guide software company Zip2. The startup was acquired by Compaq for $307 million in 1999, and, that same year Musk co-founded X.com, a direct bank. X.com merged with Confinity in 2000 to form PayPal. In October 2002, eBay acquired PayPal for $1.5 billion, and that same year, with $100 million of the money he made, Musk founded SpaceX".

A while ago I've seen a TV documentary about the young Elon and he was saying to the reporter that his goal, when he started all his business endeavors, was to make a lot of money. Granted, he was a young and cocky, freshly-made multi-millionaire back then and it might have been some kind of inside joke.
 
He also has Canadian citizenship. "A member of the wealthy South African Musk family, Elon was born in Pretoria and briefly attended the University of Pretoria before immigrating to Canada at age 18, acquiring citizenship through his Canadian-born mother. He moved to California in 1995 to attend Stanford University. However, Musk dropped out after two days and, with his brother Kimbal, co-founded online city guide software company Zip2. The startup was acquired by Compaq for $307 million in 1999, and, that same year Musk co-founded X.com, a direct bank. X.com merged with Confinity in 2000 to form PayPal. In October 2002, eBay acquired PayPal for $1.5 billion, and that same year, with $100 million of the money he made, Musk founded SpaceX".

A while ago I've seen a TV documentary about the young Elon and he was saying to the reporter that his goal, when he started all his business endeavors, was to make a lot of money. Granted, he was a young and cocky, freshly-made multi-millionaire back then and it might have been some kind of inside joke.
to me moving somewhere AFTER reaching adulthood is nothing compared to the country you were raised in.
 
I'm going to chime in on the "Musk is working for Free" claims. False as he's still operating under the old Compensation Plan, otherwise, the board would have told him to GTFO fool and been done with his antics but they can't because he's still being paid under the last compensation agreement I'm sorry to say.
All that we're seeing is the same negotiating tactics of the Unions and Pro Sports Atheletes to get a bigger payout, yet if they did their damn job right, the could make more money for longer without having to fight everyone.
 
Here he is listening to a number of experienced people talking about the risks of AI and doing something about it. Since he does understand AI better than most others he does need to have a larger (but not the only voice) in its development.

This is pretty easy to understand................but it seems there are still people out there that don't understand applied science at all and don't think he is great. I blame it on the high school science education system (of course their is much documentation but no controversy about this too).
 
I'm going to chime in on the "Musk is working for Free" claims. False as he's still operating under the old Compensation Plan, otherwise, the board would have told him to GTFO fool and been done with his antics but they can't because he's still being paid under the last compensation agreement I'm sorry to say.
All that we're seeing is the same negotiating tactics of the Unions and Pro Sports Atheletes to get a bigger payout, yet if they did their damn job right, the could make more money for longer without having to fight everyone.
Impossible to compare people in a productive industry (like Musks companies) to people in a non-productive industry (like the entertainment business). One aids society to be better, one detracts from society being better. Unless you think that society should be just sitting 24/7/365 looking at an Entertainment screen. Darwin's law of Nature shows that the second alternative will lead to the extinction of the human race; which might be some people objective, but not mine.
 
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