European Union will ban new gas-powered car sales by 2035

[Entrylevel]

You mean the scientist that didn't get deplatformed by the Climate Cult.

Seriously? Shell and Exxon were modelling the long term damaging impact of CO2 emissions on the global climate back in the 80s (scans of their original documents are readily available if you'd like to read them yourself) long before the current popular green movement, or "climate cult" as you like to call it. We can debate the specifics of impact and necessary level of response, but denying climate change at this point is equivalent to being a flat earther.

 

[dnous]

If gov't was more effective in meeting/anticipating grid demand, we wouldn't have that argument against these rules that will skyrocket EV demand.

Can't talk for all EU members, but the Netherlands is already massively investing in expanding capacity to those future demands. And we're also massively investing in renewable energy to avoid being reliant on other countries to avoid the current crisis we are in.

 

[AlaskaGuy]

Can't talk for all EU members, but the Netherlands is already massively investing in expanding capacity to those future demands. And we're also massively investing in renewable energy to avoid being reliant on other countries to avoid the current crisis we are in.

The Netherlands is probably the dumbest of all EU countries and that's saying a lot. This is the same country that's fining farmers for cows farting while feeding their children bugs at school telling them it's good for them. My ancestors came to the US from the Netherlands (Frisia) and they'd be rolling in their graves right now if they knew what that country has become.

 

[dnous]

The Netherlands is probably the dumbest of all EU countries and that's saying a lot. This is the same country that's fining farmers for cows farting while feeding their children bugs at school telling them it's good for them. My ancestors came to the US from the Netherlands (Frisia) and they'd be rolling in their graves right now if they knew what that country has become.

That's about the dumbest take there is about the nitrogen oxide and ammonia issue.

And with the insect thing I am guessing you mean that experiment that was held on a few schools in a select part of the country? You do realise that this really isn't a thing, right? Also the vast majority of children eat lunch at home, since most of them live in walking distance of their schools. And no, they don't eat insects at home.

 

[AlaskaGuy]

That's about the dumbest take there is about the nitrogen oxide and ammonia issue.

And with the insect thing I am guessing you mean that experiment that was held on a few schools in a select part of the country? You do realise that this really isn't a thing, right? Also the vast majority of children eat lunch at home, since most of them live in walking distance of their schools. And no, they don't eat insects at home.

3000 farms. The Netherlands has been a mess for decades now and it's getting worse.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1597662583036715009

 

[m4a4]

Honestly that didn't cross my mind, and that's possibly a US problem, rather than one inherent with green energy (which does include Nuclear imho).

Here in the UK for example we have 20%+ energy from wind and the grid is able to compensate for the variability with other sources, and they are actively working to upgrade the grid to cope with new energy sources and different demand profiles (

). We've already started using variable tarifs people can opt in to that encourage people to use energy when there is an excess of wind/solar and cut back when demand is high.

The supply is solid, our (current) government just screws us by prioritising supplier profits over maintianing reasonable bills for the citizens.

Nuclear would certainly help (and I agree it's green too). But from what I've seen, it doesn't make certain companies/people rich like other unreliable green sources, so it's peddled as something to avoid and fear.

And then yeah, there are many instances where pushing for greener energy just so happens to skyrocket costs for citizens. The hydroelectric dam near me should be making my bill a lot cheaper, but the windmills that went up "fixed" that cheap bill 🤦‍♂️

 

[dnous]

3000 farms. The Netherlands has been a mess for decades now and it's getting worse.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1597662583036715009

Right, by stating "3000 farms" your earlier dumb take on a complex issue is now suddenly good? If you want to hate on the Netherlands, there are better points to focus on.

 

[Entrylevel]

Nuclear would certainly help (and I agree it's green too). But from what I've seen, it doesn't make certain companies/people rich like other unreliable green sources, so it's peddled as something to avoid and fear.

And then yeah, there are many instances where pushing for greener energy just so happens to skyrocket costs for citizens. The hydroelectric dam near me should be making my bill a lot cheaper, but the windmills that went up "fixed" that cheap bill 🤦‍♂️

That sucks, but the skyrocketing cost here are entirely linked to natural gas prices at the moment, as the Russian invasion of Ukraine and associated political fallout has screwed the energy market. Even though UK wasn't depending on Russian gas, other countries had been and that pushed the cost of gas supplied by other sources up. Coincidentally Shell made record profits...

 

[Gastec]

Have you heard some motorcycles outside? or diesel engine in 10 years olg mercedes? Sure, on a highway noise is from the wind and wheels, but in estates your neighbor starting his old mustang at the morning wakes you up not because of the old tires

The sound of a V8 is music to the ears.

 

[Gastec]

Part of the Climate Cult eh.

And now a word from our EU middle school drop-out Climate Cult spokesperson fresh from her latest gig at Davos.

"How dare you?"

 

[Entrylevel]

3000 farms. The Netherlands has been a mess for decades now and it's getting worse.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1597662583036715009

Did that Tweeter read the article, or just the (misleading) headline?

The '3000' is a wide range of business that are contributing to the pollution in the region, including heavy industry (e.g. tata steel). And frankly if the farmers are carrying out unsustainable practices (excessive fertilizer use, overgrazing, inappropriate feeds) then they SHOULD be closed down and the space used by others. Not sure John really has a good grasp of the details there.

 

[AlaskaGuy]

Did that Tweeter read the article, or just the (misleading) headline?

The '3000' is a wide range of business that are contributing to the pollution in the region, including heavy industry (e.g. tata steel). And frankly if the farmers are carrying out unsustainable practices (excessive fertilizer use, overgrazing, inappropriate feeds) then they SHOULD be closed down and the space used by others. Not sure John really has a good grasp of the details there.

The Dutch don't need farms, they can just learn to code and eat bugs.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554867215941378050

 

[Gastec]

The year of their Lord Vader 2035 is only 12 years from now, barely a blink of an eye away. I have a CPU+MB older than that, still working just fine. Meanwhile, because of the bad decisions and politics of the incompetent and highly corrupted and corruptable (not an exaggeration) EU leaders, living their luxurious lives in their safe bubbles, we barely have enough electricity now, in 2023, while we pay 10x more for it than in 2020.
This "Green" plan of theirs is completely nuts and unfeasible in such a short amount of time. While the usage of the word "ban" in this context, when it should be, in theory, a free and democratic market, only serves to demonstrate the true ideals and roots of all this EU project: The Fourth Reich.

 

[Entrylevel]

The Dutch don't need farms, they can just learn to code and eat bugs.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554867215941378050

Not even sure what your point is, but no, they don't need that many farms. They're a net exporter, one of the largest.

Not quite sure why you are so keen to defend profit making companies trashing the local environment.

 

[Entrylevel]

The year of their Lord Vader 2035 is only 12 years from now, barely a blink of an eye away. I have a CPU+MB older than that, still working just fine. Meanwhile, because of the bad decisions and politics of the incompetent and highly corrupted and corruptable (not an exaggeration) EU leaders, living their luxurious lives in their safe bubbles, we barely have enough electricity now, in 2023, while we pay 10x more for it than in 2020.
This "Green" plan of theirs is completely nuts and unfeasible in such a short amount of time. While the usage of the word "ban" in this context, when it should be, in theory, a free and democratic market, only serves to demonstrate the true ideals and roots of this EU project: The Fourth Reich.

Godwin's Law already? Oh well, GG everyone.

 

[Gastec]

That sucks, but the skyrocketing cost here are entirely linked to natural gas prices at the moment, as the Russian invasion of Ukraine and associated political fallout has screwed the energy market. Even though UK wasn't depending on Russian gas, other countries had been and that pushed the cost of gas supplied by other sources up. Coincidentally Shell made record profits...

The cost of energy wes already skyrocketing in the EU, granted more in the poor, dumb Eastern colonies than in the rich core of the Reich, well before the invasion of Ukraine started. They say the main culprit is the EU Green Deal but most of it comes from the Green light our "leaders" gave to the energy market speculators, who have made historically record profits in 2021 and 2022.

 

[Gastec]

Godwin's Law already? Oh well, GG everyone.

Good thing it's not Goebbels' Law, though the rumors are Mama Bear has wet dreams about it.

 

[mailpup]

Keep to the topic please. Thank you.

 

[shark975]

Fail in the market, so order them.

 

[Bobbydpue]

Crude oil extraction is already slave filled business (who do you think OPEC uses for physical work?), so this isn't much of a difference. Still, should be addressed (but not many people want to address current issue, FIFA in Quatar was a 'success' and noone cared how many died)
Pollution isn't any worse than in the Crude oil processing. And the maintenance of an EV do not require regular oil change, which by itself is quite an advantage.
Batteries now are GREATLY better than 15 years ago - batteries density tripled from 2010, and cost fell down 87% from 2010 to 2019:

Eternally five years away? No, batteries are improving under your nose

Under the hood, lithium-ion batteries have gotten better in the last decade.

arstechnica.com

Cost of batteries replacement went down as well obviously, and will be getting lower and lower as the EV cars get more popular.
And no, I don't see indoor parking infamously expansive here, as for battery wear new EV have liquid cooling system, which helps in extreme temperatures.

The article you posted was by a person with a masters in the study of ground water. The improvments in battery tech hasn't been significant enough to replace every car with electric any time soon. Tesla still charges between $13k and $15k for a battery replacement. Comparing EVs from 2010 to 2023 doesn't make any sense since EVs were a niche product then. If the savings aren't passed to the consumers do they really matter?

If all cars in the EU go electric where is that extra power going to come from? There isn't enough power generation capacity to charge nearly every car at the same time which will happen when everyone gets home and puts their car on its charger all around the same time. Filling up a battery might end up being just as expensive as petroleum-based fuels since increased demand will raise prices if supply is limited.

 

[scavengerspc]

Tesla still charges between $13k and $15k for a battery replacement.

Tesla is still considered top of the heap in EVs.
A Porsche 911S IS NOT the top of the black smoke crowd, but an engine for it tops $40,000.

Also, because of the near maintenance free longevity of the EV motor, a new battery is basically 90% of a drivetrain rebuild.

A side note, I still have my 2017 Focus EV I bought to play around with, and its next scheduled maintenance is 68,000 miles away. And I have spent $130 on maintenance in the last 2 years. $79 of that was a scan from Ford after I bought it.

 

[Underdog]

Imo that's a great idea. Those cars are much quieter, and you can walk on the side of a street without aroma overload. The only issue I have with it is how they see the truck transport addressed, but in next 10 years I'm sure batteries will get much better, and maybe they will do smarter thing and expand railroads to speed up long distance transport.

Speaking as an outsider, living in Europe, I don't see many Americans "walking on the side of the street" except in the middle of the big cities. We watch youtoob vids of big events and it appears that you have a lot of people incapable of walking anywhere apart from the distance from their car to the front door of a shop. Getting so fat they have to ride in glorified golf carts to cover a swap meet, etc.
There are already serious pollution issues with the mining and processing of lithium for the huge amount needed for the electric cars. The whole concept has been rushed through without a comprehensive understanding of the problems that might/may/have already arisen.

Regarding the capacity of the grid to cope with all those wonderful new electric cars...........In France we have been warned there may be periodic power reductions at peak times and have set up a web site where they give advance warning of them. Why is this happening even before the roads are covered with all those green miracle planet savers? Because most of France's power is derived from nuclear, and some nitwit authorised that many of the reactors be close for maintenance "at the same time"!

 

[hwertz]

I see 2 problems here (both EU, and California's similar plan to go all-electric):

1) Power grid. In the US at least, there are no serious investments in the power grid being planned. I don't hear about any massive investments being planned in EU either. How are you going to power everybody charging their cars without increases in the power transmission capacity? (I was going to say increases in production as well, but there are new solar and wind installations being installed and planned to be installed -- I have doubts if it's anywhere near enough to cover the increased demand, but it's better than nothing.)

2) Range and charging time. Fast charging is VERY bad for batteries, and still is not all that quick. It seriously will put a crimp on a long trip to have to stop every 150 miles or so and then wait around for 10 or 15 minutes (fast charge) to an hour+. Also, even if gas stations along travel routes were replaced 1-to-1 with electric charging, would there be enough given that each car will be stopping more often and charging a lot longer than they would be buying gas? On the bright side, this does likely mean a massive increase in business for the "travel plazas", a lot more people will go in and buy snacks, lunch or dinner, those sunglasses and tchotchkes, etc., when they are there for at least 15 minutes then if they are there for 2 minutes while the gas dumps in.

I see plug-in hybrids as an excellent transitional solution. The Volt, for instance, you can plug it in at home, charge it up, and drive around 100% electric typically. But if you go on a long trip, it has a "range extender" engine and 4-gallon gas tank, so on a long trip you can stop and buy gas along the way (there's nothing stopping you from recharging it at those stops of course if chargers are available.) You can flip a switch to tell it you're going on a long trip, so instead of running 100% electric for 100 or 150 miles or whatever, then get about 40-50MPG as a hybrid, you can run it hybrid from the start, getting 100+MPG until the eletric power eventually runs down in 500 or 1000 miles.

Don't get me wrong, I do see them as a transitional solution -- I'm not against electric vehicles, and maybe everything will be ready by 2035. I think it's likely the range & charge time are not going to be "fixed" and quite simply going on a long road trip will involve a little more stopping and seeing the countryside while it charges compared to stops to gas up.

 

[scavengerspc]

I love articles like this. They bring out the Fox "news" fans among the Techspot crowd.

Just on this 2nd page are some of the most outdated, misinformed, or down right ignorant comments one can find on the subject. For God’s sake, even the Hannity forum posters are more informed than these people.

Higher insurance costs? (That's what happens when every study compares costs to insure a $100k+ Tesla to writer's 4-year-old Corolla) Insurance for my 2017 Focus EV is a third of the cost of my 2019 CTS-V. A member of my staffs insurance dropped 45% when she went from a Model S to a MACH-E.

Higher maintenance costs? The biggest lie than any other myth. As an example, see my post above.

The power grid will not be ready in 12 years? Even though the US grid could handle 85% EV saturation now?

Battery price is ridiculous? It's true, a battery for a high-end Tesla is around $15k. It's also true, a battery for my Focus is now under $2k. Ford already sells a MACH-E motor for under $4k. It's also for EV conversion projects. Again, see my post above to see what it can cost for a 4 year old 911S engine.

In my opinion, ignorance of the facts is weak, but not a big deal.
Willful ignorance goes well beyond weak. Especially when the facts are so easy to find.

 

[hwertz]

The power grid will not be ready in 12 years? Even though the US grid could handle 85% EV saturation now?

Battery price is ridiculous? It's true, a battery for a high-end Tesla is around $15k. It's also true, a battery for my Focus is now under $2k. Ford already sells a MACH-E motor for under $4k. It's also for EV conversion projects. Again, see my post above to see what it can cost for a 4 year old 911S engine.

In my opinion, ignorance of the facts is weak, but not a big deal.
Willful ignorance goes well beyond weak. Especially when the facts are so easy to find.

I knew "high insurance" was a ridiculous argument, and I knew the "high repair costs" argument was bogus (setting aside Teslas, the parts are inexpensive and reliable; I thought the batteries were more expensive but due to good battery management software they've proven to be long-lasting.)

I didn't realize the grid was in that good of shape, and hadn't realized the battery costs had come down that much though. Good to know!