Fewer Americans want to buy an EV compared to four years ago, so what changed?

[drjekelmrhyde]

I'd say they are best for urban environments... something that most of America isn't.

Not even best for urban areas, because it's not enough chargers within cities. They're best for suburban areas where people are more than likely to own their own home and have landlords that are willing to place them in parking spots on their land. I live in Chicago and hardly even see public chargers, but when I go to my girlfriend house in the suburbs, it's tons of chargers that never even get used. If cities truly cared about EVs they would place fast chargers in every parking lot the city owns. Chicago can just place them at the 600 public parks(almost 9000 acres of green space) they have.

 

[Endymio]

I don't see this going anywhere. I suggest you just read a few books on the subject or perhaps watch a few explanatory videos on YT. I unfortunately don't have the time to explain how modern interconnected power grids work.

Pretending you have an array of facts and figures to support your position, but are "too busy" to relate them isn't going to fly. No matter how interconnected a grid is, it can't escape the first and second laws of thermodynamics. Power grids are not enormous buckets in which you dump energy in, to later extract it at it your leisure. Until we have a quantum leap forward in battery technology -- or until the greens stop opposing dams for pumped-hydro storage -- the world will never support itself with wind and solar power.

 

[mbk34]

Pretending you have an array of facts and figures to support your position, but are "too busy" to relate them isn't going to fly. No matter how interconnected a grid is, it can't escape the first and second laws of thermodynamics. Power grids are not enormous buckets in which you dump energy in, to later extract it at it your leisure. Until we have a quantum leap forward in battery technology -- or until the greens stop opposing dams for pumped-hydro storage -- the world will never support itself with wind and solar power.

Nope, I was just bored of arguing with you. Many countries in Europe are well on the way to generating all their electricity via wind and solar even though you imply it's not possible. We have 6 large pumped hydro plants planned for the UK. We're also putting money into grid scale lithium batteries, vanadium flow batteries and even liquid air batteries.

Another benefit of charging EV's overnight is that the excess energy produced at night can be stored in EV batteries - a sort of distributed grid scale battery paid for by the public. If these EV's are left connected to the grid during the day then the electricity can potentially be poured back into the grid if required.

High voltage DC cables are currently being laid across Europe to transfer excess electricity between countries and balance out intermittent green energy supplies across the continent. We are even building huge wind and solar farms in Africa and connecting them to the UK grid. Here in the UK we hope to move entirely to green energy by 2035. That's obviously an ambitious plan but it is possible.

 

[scavengerspc]

Tesla stock surges 10% as quarterly vehicle deliveries beat Wall Street estimates

The EV giant delivered 443,956 vehicles during the second quarter, versus an analyst consensus estimate of 439,302 deliveries.

finance.yahoo.com

 

[scavengerspc]

High voltage DC cables are currently being laid across Europe to transfer excess electricity between countries and balance out intermittent green energy supplies across the continent.

We here are working on that now. The interconnects are being built all over the lower 48 for the east\west connection, except Texas for the most part.
And honestly, we don't want that Texas grid anywhere near the rest of the US.
Texas has their own grid, and it is widely accepted as one of the worst pieces of civil engineering in 5 decades.

Anyway:

https://www.energy.gov/oe/learn-more-about-interconnections

 

[scavengerspc]

https://fordauthority.com/2024/06/ford-mustang-mach-e-sales-numbers-figures-results-first-quarter-2024-q1/

 

[Endymio]

Many countries in Europe are well on the way to generating all their electricity via wind and solar e

Germany is "well on the way" there -- and in the process went from the cheapest electricity in Europe to among of the most expensive (four times what we pay in the US) as well as imperiling their energy security and bringing back the specter of blackouts. And when you factor in the large amounts of (fossil-fuel generated) electricity they're forced to purchase from neighboring states, their figures look much worse.

And honestly, we don't want that Texas grid anywhere near the rest of the US.
Texas has their own grid, and it is widely accepted as one of the worst pieces of civil engineering in 5 decades.

I'd love to see the source data on that statement. Of the 10 largest grid failures in the US in the last 50 years, none involved Texas; most were West Coast or Northeastern grids.

As for the Texas blackout of 2021, that wasn't a grid failure -- it was a supply shortage caused by ERCOT's reliance on "green" energy. And since I expect that statement to be challenged: ERCOT lost 100% of wind and 97% of solar capacity for several days. For nuclear, they lost only 25% (1 of 4 reactors) and that only for a few hours. For natural gas sources, they lost 75% of capacity -- but not to the generators themselves, but because they couldn't pump natural gas to them. Why not? A few years earlier, ERCOT had chosen to replace the reliable propane-fired pumps with a "green" solution that used electric pumps -- driven by grid power itself.

 

[zulu53]

Why is there a push for full EVs instead of hybrids. That never made sense to me

Hybrids still have a higher initial cost (even when Government subsidized and will cost even more when the unsustainable subsidies disappear) and higher 10year maintenance cost. Also all hybrids have less storage room then their gas counterparts. They, like, full EV's, work well only for certain small segments of the personal transportation public - lots of short trip and few long ones.

 

[mbk34]

Germany is "well on the way" there -- and in the process went from the cheapest electricity in Europe to among of the most expensive (four times what we pay in the US) as well as imperiling their energy security and bringing back the specter of blackouts. And when you factor in the large amounts of (fossil-fuel generated) electricity they're forced to purchase from neighboring states, their figures look much worse.

It costs money to alter energy production within a country. Russia has stopped all gas supplies and the German public don't want to go nuclear. No-one in Europe is stupid enough to suggest coal is the way forward so that means building and paying for wind and solar. They're planning to be 100% green by 2035. Germany mainly imports electricity from Denmark and the Netherlands, both of which generate most of their electricity through renewable sources. I'll also point out that Germany doesn't have blackouts. Here in the UK we haven't had blackouts since the 1970's. I understand blackouts are fairly common in the US.

I'd love to see the source data on that statement. Of the 10 largest grid failures in the US in the last 50 years, none involved Texas; most were West Coast or Northeastern grids.

As for the Texas blackout of 2021, that wasn't a grid failure -- it was a supply shortage caused by ERCOT's reliance on "green" energy. And since I expect that statement to be challenged: ERCOT lost 100% of wind and 97% of solar capacity for several days. For nuclear, they lost only 25% (1 of 4 reactors) and that only for a few hours. For natural gas sources, they lost 75% of capacity -- but not to the generators themselves, but because they couldn't pump natural gas to them. Why not? A few years earlier, ERCOT had chosen to replace the reliable propane-fired pumps with a "green" solution that used electric pumps -- driven by grid power itself.

The electrical grid in Texas is well known to be antiquated and underfunded. If suppliers decide to use pumps that don't work in a freeze then that's just poor management and not the fault of green energy. I recently read "The Grid" by Bakke which details a lot of the issues in the US power grid. America seems to be fairly unique in being a first world country that still frequently suffers from power outages. Worryingly, as climate change takes hold, it's forecast that these outages will get worse.

 

[zulu53]

It took several decades to "build out" the gas station infrastructure. But for this the liquid supply and distribution costs were very low compared to electricity - refineries were built near populated areas (to shorten the distribution for many) and lower population areas supporded by storage (gas stations) supplied by trucks using the same infrastructure as used by their customers. Electricity (non-fossel fuel based) can only be built in a few places always far away from any human support (making such human support very expensive) and and requires dedicated power transmission lines, transformer/switch-yards and power factor correction facilities (all very vulnerable to ISIS) - remember the North East Blackout of August 2003 which lasted from 4 hrs to 4 days. Also ask PGE how much green electricity they currently import into California (from British Columbia) and at what cost (contract coming up for renewal) and with how much expansion potential - totally unsustainable for the dept financed state.

 

[zulu53]

The means to correct the sales percentages is already being contemplated by several state governments including California. Put a 100% - 200% sales tax on ICE vehicles. The same number of EV's will be sold as now (which roughly matches to the electrical infrastructure) but the ICE numbers will drop substantially as they become like housing unaffordable to 80% of the population. Thus the EV's will garner +80% of the vehicle sales volume. The 20% rich will not care they can afford these prices given their high incomes. The 80% vehicle poor will chose a home or a car. If they chose a home they can always just use public transport like all the poor people do now.

 

[Endymio]

It costs money to alter energy production within a country.

And when you make energy expensive, it degrades the standard of living and slows economic growth. Real people suffer.

The German public don't want to go nuclear...

Translation: instead of using a clean, cheap, and safe source of green energy -- a source that actually can power a nation's grid -- they've spent trillions chasing pipe dreams.

No-one in Europe is stupid enough to suggest coal is the way

LOL, what?

July 2022: (AP) "Germany’s parliament on Friday agreed to reactivate retired coal power plants to generate electricity,"

Dec 2022: "Britain on Wednesday approved the United Kingdom's first new coal mine in three decades..."

The electrical grid in Texas is well known to be antiquated and underfunded

"Well known" means you -- once again -- have no facts or figures to support fallacious claims.

....If suppliers decide to use pumps that don't work in a freeze

Propane pumps work in freezing conditions; they're regularly used in Northern Alaska. Texas' ERCOT switched that reliable system to so-called "green" electric pumps, which failed.

 

[scavengerspc]

I'd love to see the source data on that statement.

Which is funny in a way because in my field, I AM the source.
In 2018, I was asked to write an industry-wide report on the Texas grid situation for other architects to know where and under what circumstances major projects can be implemented.
And where to avoid anything more than a single dwelling home.

Of the 10 largest grid failures in the US in the last 50 years, none involved Texas

And I actually used that data in a small way, but in the last 8 years, only Texas grid failures were related to incompetence and already outdated technology. Failures from accidents and in normal conditions SHOULD NOT have been included in that data.
Texas ran the trifecta:
1. Incompetence.
2. Design failures (For example, some turbines were placed in spots that only get 67% of available wind in the wind corridors. All just so the public couldn't see them) Yet a huge filthy building pumping smoke was music to their eyes.
3. Poor upkeep. As in, little to none. For the last 21 months, when GE Power turbines are installed in Texas they make sure a maintenance\service contract is also secured, or they will not install or even sell to them.

As for the Texas blackout of 2021, that wasn't a grid failure -- it was a supply shortage caused by ERCOT's reliance on "green" energy.

Which I have already shown you in the past, were the result of #3 above.
Some panels had never been cleaned, and none of them were weatherized except in Dallas, Tarrant and Travis counties. Few to none of those failed.

For nuclear, they lost only 25%

They actually maintain Nuke plants.
And how did a nuke plant go offline? Because of harsh conditions?

I like much of your post, brother, but not batting 1000 overall.

 

[scavengerspc]

America seems to be fairly unique in being a first world country that still frequently suffers from power outages. Worryingly, as climate change takes hold, it's forecast that these outages will get worse.

TRIVIA!
Here in the US a big part of our power supply lines are still above ground!
Electricity! Brought to you by..... Telephone poles!
Sad right?

 

[mbk34]

Scavengerspc seems to have answered most of your points but I'll try to cover the rest.

And when you make energy expensive, it degrades the standard of living and slows economic growth. Real people suffer.

When you don't invest in your electrical infrastructure it falls apart. The 2021 outage alone cost Texas $195 billion and led to between 240 and 700 lives. That's real people suffering.

Translation: instead of using a clean, cheap, and safe source of green energy -- a source that actually can power a nation's grid -- they've spent trillions chasing pipe dreams.

Germany turned away from nuclear after the Chernobyl and Fukushima accidents. Also, not far from Germany, Russia has been hitting nuclear power plants in Ukraine. I personally like nuclear but it has to be safe.

July 2022: (AP) "Germany’s parliament on Friday agreed to reactivate retired coal power plants to generate electricity,"

Germany is in an extreme situation where their main energy supplier, Russia, has stopped exporting gas. Germany currently gets 50% of it's electricity from green sources and they're aiming for 100% by 2035. The coal plants will almost certainly be turned off then.

Dec 2022: "Britain on Wednesday approved the United Kingdom's first new coal mine in three decades..."

One new coal mine in 30 years certainly isn't a trend. The coal will be used to make steel. The UK currently has one working coal power plant left and it's being closed down this year. It's now almost 60 years old.

Propane pumps work in freezing conditions; they're regularly used in Northern Alaska. Texas' ERCOT switched that reliable system to so-called "green" electric pumps, which failed.

All equipment has an operating temperature range. If ERCOT chose to install equipment that wouldn't operate when it was freezing then the blame goes to ERCOT and not the "green" equipment they chose to install.

 

[Endymio]

2. Design failures (For example, some turbines were placed in spots that only get 67% of available wind in the wind corridors. All just so the public couldn't see them)

I won't argue the other points, but this is hardly unique to Texas. The NIMBY mentality is even more endemic to the East and West coasts. And not entirely without justification ... a college friend of mine recently had the value of his $2.5M New England home devalued 30%, after a wind farm was built on the nature preserve immediately behind him.

When you don't invest in your electrical infrastructure it falls apart.

Germany's "investment" cost it half a trillion dollars and has resulted in a grid that even its own government is less reliable and less able to meet the energy needs of the country. That's not investing -- that's pouring euros on the ground and dumping gasoline on them.

The 2021 outage alone cost Texas $195 billion and led to between 240 and 700 lives. That's real people suffering.

Had they stuck with their reliable nuclear and fossil fuel sources, none of that would have happened. Add to those lives and $195B losses the tens of billions they squandered on green pipe dreams, just to virtue signal to those who don't understand power engineering.

Germany turned away from nuclear after the Chernobyl and Fukushima accidents. Also, not far from Germany, Russia has been hitting nuclear power plants in Ukraine.

You're confused. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant has been in Russian hands since nearly the beginning of the war; the last dozen or so attacks on it were all by Ukrainian forces.

As for Fukushima, the nuclear accident resulted in somewhere between 0 and 1 excess cancer deaths over the next 30 years, whereas the tsunami that caused it killed 18,000 people instantly. Yet Japan spent $10B shutting down nuke plants and only a few hundred thousand dollars on better seawalls and early-warning-systems. Yet another case of government pandering to ignorance and hysteria.

Germany currently gets 50% of it's electricity from green sources

Germany currently gets 0% of its controllable baseline electricity from green sources. And the non-baseline 50% figure is largely hype -- nearly half of that Germany sells to its fossil-fuel powered neighbors, then buys back baseline power in the periods when the sun isn't shining and the wind not blowing.

If ERCOT chose to install equipment that wouldn't operate when it was freezing then the blame goes to ERCOT and not the "green" equipment they chose to install.

You didn't read carefully. Both the old propane and the new "green" pumps work fine in freezing temperatures. But the non fossil-fuel powered pumps require grid electricity. Meaning when the wind and solar farms went offline, there was no power to start up the backup natural gas turbines.

 

[m3tavision]

Nope, I was just bored of arguing with you. Many countries in Europe are well on the way to generating all their electricity via wind and solar even though you imply it's not possible. We have 6 large pumped hydro plants planned for the UK. We're also putting money into grid scale lithium batteries, vanadium flow batteries and even liquid air batteries.

Another benefit of charging EV's overnight is that the excess energy produced at night can be stored in EV batteries - a sort of distributed grid scale battery paid for by the public. If these EV's are left connected to the grid during the day then the electricity can potentially be poured back into the grid if required.

High voltage DC cables are currently being laid across Europe to transfer excess electricity between countries and balance out intermittent green energy supplies across the continent. We are even building huge wind and solar farms in Africa and connecting them to the UK grid. Here in the UK we hope to move entirely to green energy by 2035. That's obviously an ambitious plan but it is possible.

You sound so hopeful.

But you fail to understand that you are using "talking points" and not actual facts and data. As mentioned the laws of conductivity and EMI and thermodynamics apply. So does cost and repair and MAINTENANCE.

You are being sold a cheap bag of good (ie talking points), when NUCLEAR energy can do all of your "Green" stuff and is vastly better for the environment and geography.


Wind and Solar should be residential use only... to supplement each households consumption and offer independence from Government grid and allow for more self governance.

Understand, Wind and Solar are not reliable energy sources and create more human hazards worldwide than they are worth.

 

[mbk34]

You sound so hopeful.

But you fail to understand that you are using "talking points" and not actual facts and data. As mentioned the laws of conductivity and EMI and thermodynamics apply. So does cost and repair and MAINTENANCE.

You are being sold a cheap bag of good (ie talking points), when NUCLEAR energy can do all of your "Green" stuff and is vastly better for the environment and geography.


Wind and Solar should be residential use only... to supplement each households consumption and offer independence from Government grid and allow for more self governance.

Understand, Wind and Solar are not reliable energy sources and create more human hazards worldwide than they are worth.

I actually strongly believe in nuclear energy. I even went for a tour around our Sizewell nuclear plant here in the UK last year and came away very impressed. What I'm not impressed with is coal.

The UK uses between 30GW and 60GW of electricity per day. Our current wind farm capacity is 30GW, we're aiming at 50GW by 2030. Obviously the wind doesn't blow each day but we're investigating various storage technologies and using HVDC interconnectors to Europe and Africa. Solar production is planned to increase to 70GW by 2035. As mentioned before, the UK is planning to make energy production be carbon neutral by 2035. Nuclear will of course be a part of this but it takes a long time to set up full scale nuclear plants so we're more likely to go ahead with small modular reactors.

 

[Tinderbox]

I’m up for a self-charging hybrid but I’ll never get a plug-in EV. My region has had enough keeping the power grid going lately as it is, for a number of reasons. I will not have my mobility depend on it.

 

[Dimitrios]

Could you be any more gullible? You read the things you want to believe and just believe it with no actual evidence. We didn't sell 80% of our reserves. It was 40% and it was to reduce fuel prices when oil spiked after Russian embargos went into effect. Too many Americans blame the president for higher fuel prices and now you're mad a president did something, that doesn't affect you, to keep prices down? People just can't win. 350 million barrels is enough to keep the country running for nearly two month, if no more oil was pumped out of the ground in the US and it's still the biggest in the world. The US produces around 360 million barrels a month so what actual impact does selling 40% of the reserves actually do to you and the nation's security? That oil sale didn't go directly into the president's pockets, but if you are so concerned about who's making what money have you look at your favored politician's pockets? I bet they aren't filled with money from their paper routes, either.

Do you really think your chosen political party does only things for The People and not industry and only have money from their paychecks? Where are the solutions to fix the ACA and healthcare costs? Where are the education reforms to ensure Americans can work in industry that isn't fast food? Politics don't care how much healthcare is going to cost as long as the industry is getting paid and it's the same with education.