Game developer's demand that employees have naked sauna sessions sparks controversy
- Thread starter midian182
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Point made, but I really don't see why they can't just use the sauna.
I can't think of a thing to be learned about saunas that can't be learned in a towel.
On the other hand, since they are doing female only sessions for this, his explanation is a bit more plausible.
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How do you know they haven't?
What's absurd is thinking that you can only be creative if you're naked in a sauna. While this might be a cultural thing in those countries, how do we know all employees are from that region and understand that cultural significance? And have you ever heard of any companies from those countries requiring meetings to be held in a sauna?
I don't know if anyone is disparaging the culture as much as they are disparaging the practice of requiring work meetings in a sauna. In my opinion, cultural practices don't belong in the workplace. Some cultures practice animal sacrifice and sprinkling blood around their 'yards'. Should that be a thing in the workplace too?
Umm, It's not??
Oops.
Thanthan
Posts: 278 +572
They’re making a game about saunas… boss wants to go to the sauna together… he’s being hyper weird about it, but as other posters have said… going to the sauna naked and being social is… ehh really normal in northern, central and Eastern Europe… I could understand being weirded out by the boss to the point of not wanting to do something otherwise normal though. Most places would would just have organised a voluntary trip or asked people to go chill in saunas for a couple of days and be social with friends or strangers there…
Endymio
Posts: 3,599 +3,492
When a Hollywood film or TV series is made about war, they hire consultants who've actually fought in them. When the film is about racing autos or horses, performing ER surgery, or catching murderers forensically, they hire people who've actually done those things. Often they don't require this just for a couple creative directors, but for the actors themselves: Cruise required his 'Top Gun' actors to ride in military fighters, Day-Lewis spent weeks alone in the forest learning to hunt, shoot, and trap when filming 'Last of the Mohicans', and Coppolla was so obsessed with realism in filming 'Apocalypse Now', that he used actual dead bodies of rebels in many scenes.
Is it possible to not only "be creative", but authoritatively realistic about a subject you have no experience or first-hand knowledge of? In theory -- sure. But travel books written by authors who've never been to the sites in question rarely sell well, now do they?
As a Finn maybe you don't know, but it is not cool to call them "girls." And it's not out of prudishness that I don't want to see most people naked. Unlike a doctor's patient, I believe the job can be done clothed or naked so naked should not be mandated.
Endymio
Posts: 3,599 +3,492
Why not? Just last night, I saw a female celebrity refer to the men in her life as "my boys" -- and IIRC there's even a hit show referring to adult men as "boys". So please, leave the hypocritical virtue signaling at home.
Because you're ignorant of the subject. To speak or write effectively on any experience, one should experience it. In many cases you can circumvent that requirement through a large amount of research: speaking to or reading about others who have experienced it, etc -- but in the case where the experience is fast, cheap, and easy enough to experience directly, that's a rather silly route. If you want to write an article on how it feels to chew gum, you don't interview a gum chewer -- you chew it yourself.
You're obviously emotionally hyper-focused on just one aspect of his request: the word 'naked'. Why does this word scare you so? Close your eyes and repeat it a few dozen times. According to psychologists, gradual acclimatation treatments like this may help.
Dude, I worked in motion pictures for years and lack of professionalism and sexism was rampant. I have been grabbed and stalked at work, just to name a couple of the times I was sexually harassed. I've earned degrees in engineering and art at two of the most prestigious universities in the U.S. I deserve to be called a woman, NOT a girl. And if the guy has washboard abs and a pretty face, I'm fine with naked but I doubt that's what I'd have the pleasure of experiencing.
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Endymio
Posts: 3,599 +3,492
So the rest of the world's free speech should be limited -- even in referring to each other -- because of something that happened to you?
But it's OK for you to call me a "dude"? Good god, the hypocrisy is rampant. Clean your own house first, girl.
Congratulations on displaying the same rampant sexism you accuse others of. You have some serious issues.
Furthermore, in the midst of your temper tantrum and artificial outrage, you forgot to read the article. No girls or women alike were subjected to the horrors of seeing an old man naked. The sessions were gender-separated.
Come talk to me after you've had your *** grabbed in front of a Nobel Laureate by a coworker at an Astro Physics event and been stalked at work by another co-worker...or how about being cornered in your office and having yet another coworker twice your size, close and block the door, and then I'll believe you know something about sexism and my experience. BTW, dude does != girl...maybe dudette, but that's not half as insulting as "girl." "Girl" sounds like I should be in a sterno pool in the 60's or selling cookies door to door. You are completely out of touch and have missed my whole point. I don't blame you; I doubt you've faced any of this crap at work or school. In fact, most white men, and I'm guessing you're white, don't experience discrimination until they maybe have to deal with ageism. And lucky me, I will get to deal with that too. So no, I wouldn't want to invite trouble with naked. I've had a hard enough time dressing conservatively...and I'm talking penny-loafer conservatively. In fact my Dad's reaction when I complained about what was happening, "What are YOU doing that this keeps happening to you?" You sound a lot like my dad. I bet you're the kind of guy who keeps a gaslight in his pocket.
Endymio
Posts: 3,599 +3,492
This is the same girl who stated she'd gleefully attend naked work sessions if her male coworkers had sexy bodies? If you experienced a sexual assault, I suggest you call the police.
Nor does it justify the Thought Police mentality. Ethically and legally, you have a right be immune from physical assaults. You do not have a right to dictate what others think or say about you. That includes terms of address. Put that fascist authoritarianism in the trashcan of history where it belongs.
I'll also correct your understanding of the English language. The term "girl' is often used as a diminutive (Google that fast) indicating endearment or familiarity. While it is occasionally intended in a condescending or derogatory sense (as I did), the OP did not use it as such. Context is key. Language is tricky, eh girl?
Finally, you missed the most important point of all. These were unisex sauna sessions. Your entire diatribe was irrelevant from the start.
Ah, a dash of racism to go with the sexism, fascism, and victimhood mentality, eh? Not that it's relevant, but I was born a citizen of the USSR; two of my grandparents were slaves (technically 'serfs', but they were bought and sold as slaves), and two others had special marks in their passports, indicating the horror of their Jewish ethnicity. So I know a little about discrimination.
EDIT: I'll toss out a bone and say that, if you actually are attending astrophysics symposiums with just an undergraduate engineering degree, kudos to you. I was lucky enough to meet Nobel Laureate Roger Penrose at one of these. I mention him as he was cheated of half his Nobel Prize, due to the committee's slavish desire to award a woman -- any woman, no matter how insignificant her contribution. That's some real-world sexism for you.
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OMG, I don't even know what to say, except I'm glad you're not my co-worker or my boss. Language depends not only on what the person who said it is trying to express but also on how it is received. And if I and many other women find the term "girl" pejorative, that should be enough for you not to use it if you're not a jerk. Let me give you a similar example: if someone says, "That music you're playing in your cubicle makes it difficult for me to concentrate." It sounds like what you would do is say, "Well, it doesn't bother ME or make it hard for ME to concentrate, so it shouldn't bother you." And as sensitive as you are about my sarcastic (not literal) reference to abs and a pretty face, methinks you doth protest too much. Oh, and I'm talking about being judged by how you look and present. I doubt anyone looks at you and says, oh, that guy is definitely Jewish and descended from former slaves...there's a HUGE difference unless perhaps you're blind too and can't empathize with anything you haven't experienced for yourself. Finally, how dare you say I'm making up my experiences. One of those guys got put on suspension when my coworkers (other men -- good men) witnessed what he was doing, Mr. Gaslight. One of those guys got fired because he finally picked the wrong victim. I didn't report these experiences because of people like you and because I was very young and sheltered and just couldn't believe it was happening...that anyone would be that unprofessional...there are a lot of "anyones," I assure you, and they are experts at picking their victims. Just ask Havey Weinstein. I'm guessing you're a lost cause. You've made up your mind...we're just emotional and too sensitive and should get over it. Whereas guys are so paranoid about being checked out or propositioned by someone they're not interested in and someone they might find physically intimidating that it was a crime to be openly gay in the military until the Obama administration in the U.S. Many heterosexual men can dish it out but they can't take it.
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