So you only have PCI slots and want to game?

[Tha General]

Ya the 8500GT is 128bit and more power then the 2400 and 8400gs. The rest of the new pci cards are 128bit, the 8600gt, and 9400gt and 9500gt, but not located in the united states yet.

 

[Pioikit]

It was mention before in this forum, that the visiontek and the his and the rest of the X1550 cards are 64bit. The only true 128bit and fastest X1550 is the Diamond version. Which is kinda hard to find. If you do find it at online sites, its way overprice. I had no luck finding it.


HIS, its up to 12.8GB, and the core and memory clock is even higher then the 2400HD.]

Correct me if I'm wrong: 128-bit bus means 12.8M transfer rate...64-bit bus means 6.4 transfer rate. So, it it's rate is 12.8, it must be a 128-bit bus...right?

 

[Tha General]

No, i am talking about the gpu memory bandwidth, the higher the bandwidth the better. You can read about what means what over at gpureview:

Memory bus:

Short Version

The number of bits wide (and the organization) of the memory bus that connects your GPU to your video card RAM.

Does It Matter?

Yes, definitely. Memory bus width is a huge part of memory bandwidth. And memory bandwidth has a major impact on performance. Especially at the low end, video card manufacturers tend to cut down memory bus widths so they can use cheaper memory, so you always want to make sure you know what memory bus you're actually getting.

Long Version

In order to process 3D data as much as possible your video card has onboard RAM which typically operates much faster than your system RAM. This onboard video card RAM is connected to the GPU via the memory bus. This connection can be of varying widths depending on what GPU you have. Some GPUs support wider busses than others. Also, most cards support using memory over a smaller bus than the maximum supported by the card.

As a result, video card manufacturers often use cheaper memory with a lower buswidth than the maximum supported by the GPU. This is how you get 4 different versions of a video card with different memory buswidths. Since the buswidth is not heavily advertised (despite its importance), it's very easy to end up with a lower performing card than expected. So be careful.

On the card pages we first display the type of memory bus, and then the overall size in parentheses. The 'type' of bus refers to how the bus is broken up internally to better handle smaller chunks of data. For example the 7600 GT has a 64x2 memory bus, meaning it can process one 128bit chunk per clock, or two 64bit chunks. This segmenting makes the fetching of smaller chunks of data much more efficient since otherwise an entire clock cycle would be taken for a 64bit chunk

Memory Bandwidth

Short Version

The speed at which the card can access memory.

Long Version

Memory bandwidth is equal to the size of the memory bus multiplied by the speed at which the memory is clocked.

The higher the memory bandwidth, the better the card will be able to handle large textures and anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering. Not to say that you don't need a lot of memory bandwidth if you don't want to use these features, you still do. Memory bandwidth is important in nearly every part of graphics processing.

The amount and speed of the memory matter very little in comparison to the overall memory bandwidth. If you want a card with good memory, this number says it all.
................................................................................

The X1550 256MB has 64bit, but the bandwidth for the card is 12.8GB, thats great. The 8500GT has 256mb memory, and 12.8GB and a 128bit bus, thats even better. The X1550 is pretty good, if you go to youtube type in the card, you can see videos of people using the card with games and stuff.

 

[direwolf007]

Sparkle put their 9400GT on their PCI list,

http://www.sparkle.com.tw/product.asp?id=94

1GB 9400GT PCI, with 128? WOW, i want one. And i will be sure to buy one when they are release. However, Sparkle needs to fix thier images, its a PCIE card from what i can see.

1Gb of memory is useless on a PCI-E 9400GT, even more so on a PCI version of it.

No, he has a difference of opinion.

I have a difference of fact, which also seems to coincide with the rest of the world's results on the matter. Only your super P3 appears to think differently, but you already know what I think of that.

I see nothing wrong with PCI cards and i game just fine with my games at pretty good settings , without any hassle. So i like buying PCI cards and i plan to stick with them. When PCI cards finally stop being created, i will move on to PCIE, first card being the Diamond 1GB 4670

Also, AMD Is suppose to be releasing the 3450 PCI version, they called it the " PCI Solution ", its suppose to ship with higher core and memory clock then the PCIe version.

On my personal note, i believe they will also make a 4 Series card, because alot of these 4 series cards does not require a power connector and if you look at them, they are pretty cozy to use.

I get 15fps in Jericho about 80% of the time, plays just fine on my end, very smooth and fast, little bit of slowdown, but i like it

Alright my reasoning is not backwards, i have a 90watts PSU, and i play Crysis at 1280x1024 texture on medium, everything else on low, and still get near 15fps. Now besides crysis, i can game just fine, from games from the past up until late 2008. All because a computer is old, doesn't make it weak.

I already have proven to you, but dire think i am editing photos, which is pretty much impossible to do, yet alone i don't use photo crap shop.

Here are some bioshock photos: Test: 2400HD/ Actor and Texture settings at Highest settings, Post Processing high, Detail Shaders On high, everything else off or low, 7-15fps. No benchmarks numbers.

http://i42.tinypic.com/ercppl.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/1256n1c.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/zwawsi.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/5yyyig.jpg

Tomb Raider , AAX2, Max settings, Full Screen Direct X9 effects, 15-30fps

http://www.filecram.com/files/TOM2.jpg
http://www.filecram.com/files/TOM1.jpg
http://www.filecram.com/files/TOM.jpg

This was tested with my 6200 card, see the core and memory stock settings and temps in the upper left corner.

Here are some infernal and Jerchio shots

http://c83.cc/images/roefjer02pm8agr04wc.jpg
http://c83.cc/images/uuvcykufqm9gi6p0l7v2.jpg
http://c83.cc/images/gwwmnhcojjyeognoawj.jpg
http://c83.cc/images/agqfkglhlts8hf19683w.jpg

People think i am lying, but i am not misleading anyone haha. I can game just fine at decent settings. And when i buy my secondary rig the Gateway/ Intel Pentium Dual Core with the 8500GT albatron or 8600gt version, i should game even better.

Anyways, its no point in keep trying to prove to people, hell i posted a video of me playing cysis at 1280X1024 and someone still doesn't believe me lol.

So i am just going to keep the subject from benchmarking and all. I like PCI cards, and thats that. Cheers!

You posted a video of the game barely even moving, then you claim playable framerates in the face of proof that a far better system is not able to achieve those rates. Whether you are lying and editing your data or simply misinterpreting it makes no difference to me - Your results don't make sense and don't fly with me, or with any other posted results on the web.

 

[Tha General]

This is pretty much my last time trying to prove to folks wrong. So once again, pay close attention everyone.

Crysis , 1280x1024 Resolution, Medium to Low Settings. Only thing on low is
particles quality , sound and game effects, everything else on medium settings. Get between 7-15fps, looking down i get 18fps.

Resize to 1024x640

http://c83.cc/images/o1co4b0vbtvpyknkyhjp.jpg
http://c83.cc/images/0uonh1zaozzwox899qol.jpg
http://c83.cc/images/bz7yqpaqvzp3car7xcdu.jpg
http://c83.cc/images/vhldgxcxbabs2st1pmlb.jpg
http://c83.cc/images/4qr7so3nzobsgju8831o.jpg

And to prove that i am not lying, this is video:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmr-mTB5TEY[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67BfAeWzJhk&feature=channel_page[/ame]

Really slow as you can, it drops down from 8-9fps to 3-5. You can see clearly how i went into the menu to prove to you that i am running it on 1280x1024 medium to low settings.

So again lol you can believe what you like. Crysis is playable at 1024x768 low to medium tho, which i plan to keep it at. But hey 1280x1024 is even playable. And i didn't even OC the card yet haha.

Peace

 

[LinkedKube]

I didnt doubt that what you said is true, I just disagreed that even this video above is "unplayable," to be enjoyable at least

 

[Tha General]

Well yea its weird watching it, because it lags alot. I was really talking to direwolf, who says i am editing photos and stuff lol. Just had to prove him wrong thats all. I was recording it medium to low settings at 1280x1024, but playing it i get 7-15fps. Thats not bad for someone using a computer which i have. But i just play the game at 1024x768 low to medium and it runs just fine.
peace.

 

[Pioikit]

Links

Here are some links I found useful while card searching:

On the different interface slots: <www.buildyourown.org.uk/pc-building/fitting/adapter-cards/>

Comparison charts: <www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=88&pgno=3>

<www.tomshardware.co.uk/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-q1-2008/Warhammer-Mark-of-Chaos-v1-6,581.html>

<www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-charts-q1-2008/3DMark06-v1-0-2-HDR-SM3-0-Score,538.html>

<en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ATI_Graphics_Processing_Units>

<forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=247448>

<www.pcvsconsole.com/features/video/>

Card comparison (besides GPUreview.com): <www.xgcdb.com/>

Card pricing history: <www.mypricechart.com/cat/comp_hw/gpu/>

Enjoy!

 

[Tha General]

thanks for the links, that ati graphic processing unit page will come in handy in looking at how much bandwidth a card has.

Btw, what video card are you going to buy piokit?

 

[Pioikit]

I've ordered the 8400 GS...but if I see an X1550 for under $40, I'm going to buy it too, then test both and keep the best one.

 

[teklord]

I've ordered the 8400 GS...but if I see an X1550 for under $40, I'm going to buy it too, then test both and keep the best one.

Can only recommend the Sparkle 8500GT for now over the Diamond Stealth X1550 and the Sparkle 8400GS. The Sparkle 8500GT cost over twice as much as the 8400GS, but I believe you will see twice as much performance as well. Recommend RMA'ing the 8400GS and ordering a 8500GT through Google Shopping search. Here are links directly comparing the stats of the 8500GT to both of these cards. The GPUreview site has some better stats for the 8400GS over the 8500GT , but because of the 64-bit bandwidth, I don't think these are accurate. If you are going to try out the 8400GS, please download and use GPU-Z and post a screenshot of your card stats so we can know once and for all which is better in use, the 8500GT or the 8400GS PCI. It is very easy to use, just click the camera button in the top right corner of the GPU-Z window.

8500GT vs. 8400GS

8500GT vs. X1550 PCI


I didn't watch General's videos, but if they look like slide shows, then that would meet what I believe they would look like on his classic rig. He can at least get a better PIII for his mobo as an original Xbox has a more powerful CPU than his PC. It would be dirt cheap and takes a few minutes to install and put the thermal grease on.

9400GT PCI looks like a great card, can't wait for the 9500GT so I can request sites like Newegg or Tiger Direct to carry it. Disagree that a Gig of memory is a waste as I want to squeeze every last drop of FPS I can from the card. If I could trade for free my PCI slot rig for a PCI-E 2.0 rig, I would do it in a heartbeat but I have heavy financial obligations so I can't save for the PC I really want and I am stuck with a PCI slot mobo for now.

 

[direwolf007]

9400GT PCI looks like a great card, can't wait for the 9500GT so I can request sites like Newegg or Tiger Direct to carry it. Disagree that a Gig of memory is a waste as I want to squeeze every last drop of FPS I can from the card. If I could trade for free my PCI slot rig for a PCI-E 2.0 rig, I would do it in a heartbeat but I have heavy financial obligations so I can't save for the PC I really want and I am stuck with a PCI slot mobo for now.

The gig of memory is a waste. The bus width is simply not sufficient to actually utilize all this memory, nor is the GPU powerful enough to be able to fill it with anything, especially at the lower resolutions most PCI cards can give playable framerates at.

Far stronger cards on the PCI-E interconnect cannot utilize 1GB of GRAM, or gain next to nothing from it at the lower resolutions with AA disabled (And PCI cards won't be running AA or high res in a reasonable fashion anyway).

The 9600GT 1GB or 8800GT 1GB come to mind: Neither gains anything significant at 1280x1024 and below from having twice the memory - 2 fps would be an over-assessment from the benchmarks out there, and 2 fps would represent something like 4% improvement on "average" at those resolutions. Given that current PCI video cards barely grant you playable frame rates anyway in modern games, if at all, the increase of 4% would be absolutely meaningless (4% out of 25 fps ? about 1 fps gain), even if it existed - and it won't, for the reasons I described above.

It would be far better if the cards came with half the memory, but used GDDR3/DDR3 instead.

 

[Rage_3K_Moiz]

Erm, what exactly do those tests prove, Tha General? Sure, a PCI card can run a game like Crysis, but it definitely cannot do it acceptably. The bottom-line for acceptable performance is 30FPS, and if a game doesn't even run at that, then it's unplayable.

Honestly, do you run your current PC as a kind of a side-hobby? Because otherwise, any attempt at wasting further money on it by "upgrading" the GPU doesn't make sense. And as supersmashbrada pointed out, anyone looking to play any game that's been released in the past 2-3 years should NOT bother getting a PCI card, the performance benefit from it is close to nil compared to that from a PCI-E card. You'd be better off saving up for a new system.

As for your results, I find them very hard to believe, even though true they may be. I guess your system isn't as bad as it's supposed to be.

@teklord, I disagree, 1GB of VRAM is a waste on a PCI card and doesn't help in drawing more performance from the card, since VRAM is basically used for loading textures and as a framebuffer at high resolutions. As the card's performance is already limited by the PCI bus' bandwidth, the extra memory has no effect on performance. As for financial reasons to not buy a new PC, I agree that it may be extremely difficult for you, but instead of constantly upgrading your current rig, wouldn't it be better to save up over a period of time? An AM2 mobo with the 780G chipset along with a cheap AMD dual-core would cost around $100 and provide an upgrade path, besides also providing a robust graphics solution for the time being.

This thread was originally aimed at helping people game with PCI cards, but looking at the average specs of a PC required to run a game today, it is pointless to do so now, unless you only play games like Spore and The Sims 1\2.

 

[teklord]

It would be far better if the cards came with half the memory, but used GDDR3/DDR3 instead.

This is most likely true, I would love to see 1GB of DDR3, don't mind the overkill as long as the price stays the same.

@teklord, I disagree, 1GB of VRAM is a waste on a PCI card and doesn't help in drawing more performance from the card, since VRAM is basically used for loading textures and as a framebuffer at high resolutions. As the card's performance is already limited by the PCI bus' bandwidth, the extra memory has no effect on performance. As for financial reasons to not buy a new PC, I agree that it may be extremely difficult for you, but instead of constantly upgrading your current rig, wouldn't it be better to save up over a period of time? An AM2 mobo with the 780G chipset along with a cheap AMD dual-core would cost around $100 and provide an upgrade path, besides also providing a robust graphics solution for the time being.

Unfortunately, there is much more involved that just buying the mobo and CPU for me and I have to go through a "tattooing" process with my mobo because this PC is OEM HP and if something doesn't work out right, I might be stuck without a functional PC. I really feel strongly I am stuck right now with PCI, but look forward to upgrading to PCI-E 2.0 ASAP and I want to get my hands on the 9500GT for the older games ASAP as well. I don't think PCI cards are useless and have a much greater library of compatible games than you may realize, but you are correct I believe that anything released in the past 2 years or so will not run very well at all on even the 9500GT. Some of my favorite games of all time are over 2 to 3 years old, so it isn't dealbreaking to me to run them off this rig with a good PCI card and many people can accept the same for their situation.

 

[Pioikit]

Sit Rep

It may be true, as some point out, that even trying to use a PCI card for game purposes is a fruitless endeavor. For some of the modern "shooter" games, where high speed is vital, I suspect this is very true. However, the point of this thread is this:

IF you MUST use a PCI card, what's the best video card available? and affordable?
By "affordable", I take it that if anyone had $100 to spend on a video card (i.e., the 8500 GT), they would buy a new mobo/CPU/memory. Therefore, the question of "the best card", for me, presupposes a cheap card.

Hence, my search has led me to the 8400 GS and X1550. I hope to buy both for under $40 (the 8400 I just ordered was $36, including shipping). I'll then test them, as suggested, and post the results. (I may need some help to do that, though!) I'll then sell the other card.

Though I'd rather have the 8500, I'll wait till it drops in price to under 50/40$ (probably, when the 9400/9500 models are available here.)

 

[teklord]

I don't see price drops very often on PCI cards as the X1550 is about the same as when it came out it seems. If you know you aren't going to replace the mobo, then I say spend the extra $50 and get the 8500GT. The price probably won't drop dramatically even when the superior 9500GT comes out.

 

[Rage_3K_Moiz]

However, the point of this thread is this:

IF you MUST use a PCI card, what's the best video card available? and affordable?

That's not what the thread title says.

And where did you find a PCI 8400GS that cheap? The only PCI 8400GS I've seen is made by PNY and is for at least $60.

 

[Tha General]

I don't mind spending 100 dollars on a PCI card, this 2400HD which works wonderful in w2k i paid 135 bucks for it. I didn't want to do it, but i didn't even know the card existed in PCI form at that time and when i was in the store, i said WOW, i couldn't stop smiling, so i just bought it. Is it worth 135 dollars? No. I say around 70 bucks. My next PCI card is going to be the BFG 8400GS for this rig, my Pentium III. However if the card is not the same size as the BFG 6200, i can't use it, and i will just buy sparkle 8400GS, because they can fit in my rig. But i have to buy the one with the fan on it.

For my next rig, i plan to buy the Albatron 8500GT or 8600GT, i know where to get them. And i will let everyone know once i get one of them and tell you where i got it from lol. I am still checking on that btw. What can i say i am a loyal hardcore pci gamer. But then again, i use what i want to use and enjoy. :approve:

Can only recommend the Sparkle 8500GT for now over the Diamond Stealth X1550 and the Sparkle 8400GS. The Sparkle 8500GT cost over twice as much as the 8400GS, but I believe you will see twice as much performance as well./URL]
[/URL]
yea the 8500GT wouldn't say its worth 100 dollars, maybe 80. But yea overall very good card. As for the 8400GS, i only heard bad things playing WOW, but couple folks who own the card on another forum said they play hell gate just fine, and far cry 2, so the 8400GS is pretty good. At those cheap prices.

Erm, what exactly do those tests prove, Tha General? Sure, a PCI card can run a game like Crysis, but it definitely cannot do it acceptably. The bottom-line for acceptable performance is 30FPS, and if a game doesn't even run at that, then it's unplayable.

I disagree, i am playing Warhead at 1280x1024 at low settings and i get 7-23fps. Thats playable , very smooth to me.

Honestly, do you run your current PC as a kind of a side-hobby? Because otherwise, any attempt at wasting further money on it by "upgrading" the GPU doesn't make sense.

No its not a hobby :haha: This is my main computer, my main rig for older games, old games, and new and some newer games to late 2008. I had this computer since 2000, and upgrading the GPU i have been since 2005, from the radeon 7000, on up to the 2400HD.

As for your results, I find them very hard to believe, even though true they may be. I guess your system isn't as bad as it's supposed to be.

You can believe what you want, but yes its true my computer is not that weak like people think. There was alot of bottlenecking going on when i had XP home edition, because that OS is too demandning, but switching over to Windows 2000SP4, well there is no more bottlenecking or poor performance anymore.

W2k is the perfect gaming system, because it doesn't have alot of junk loading up, which means better performance, free to do more things. As for my computer, its pretty good, but without the GPU, i wouldn't even be able to play Crysis or Warhead very good. Yea it works with my 6200, but with the 2400HD, much better.

 

[electromagnetic]

PCI bad for gaming.

Just Cause. Glitches with 6200 Nvidia even pci express or AGP.
:haha:

Tomb Raider Underworld ( you need Nvidia 178.24 ).:grinthumb

Bioshock ( but you get the 8 bit problem, even with pci express ).

Crysis plays great but on low settings.

So pci and pci express x16 & AGP all have similar speed of game Doom 3.

For instance the pci express x16 card 6200 has the same Frames Per Sec. 30FPS

 

[Tha General]

Hey electromagnetic. Still using the 6200 i see, great card.
What card you plan on upgrading too?
Btw, how well does TR underworld work with your 6200 and Pentium 4 2.8ghz?

 

[Dell310!]

PCI bad for gaming.

Just Cause. Glitches with 6200 Nvidia even pci express or AGP.
:haha:

Tomb Raider Underworld ( you need Nvidia 178.24 ).:grinthumb

Bioshock ( but you get the 8 bit problem, even with pci express ).

Crysis plays great but on low settings.

So pci and pci express x16 & AGP all have similar speed of game Doom 3.

For instance the pci express x16 card 6200 has the same Frames Per Sec. 30FPS

hows gaming on ur pc? we got the exact same computer so hows cod4 and crysis and other games fps rate on the lowest settings?

 

[Pioikit]

Cheap 8400

That's not what the thread title says.

Well, I didn't mean to preclude other discussion. But that formula seems at least implied by the nature of the thread and many of the posts on it.

And where did you find a PCI 8400GS that cheap? The only PCI 8400GS I've seen is made by PNY and is for at least $60.

As noted by someone else above, the Sparkle 8400 GS is available at microcenter.com for $40...less a $10 rebate...plus $6 shipping. Mine's on the way. I don't know this store; they have no way to check order status online; apparently a retail computer store chain.

General: I've been watching X1550 prices, and you're right, I also haven't seen any cheap ones, so the only route is via amazon/ebay/used ones.

Teklord: re the 8500: if the only game I play (Uru Myst) just will not play on the 8400 or the 1550, you're right that I'd probably also invest in an 8500...but I'd feel monetarily abused about it. Besides, General is going to find somewhere to order 8600GTs for $50...right, G?

 

[Tha General]

Hey teklord look at this photo

http://www.filecram.com/files/Mainf.jpg

Thats crysis warhead at 1280x1024 low to mainstream settings and i get between 7-23fps. This warhead btw, its more easy on the CPU then crysis, but then again, crysis runs pretty close to it at 1280x1024. PCI cards are just fine for me, in warhead when the game speeds up and hit 15 , it feels very smooth, no slowdown or anything.

 

[PCIGamer]

Microcenter has a store in KC. I bought mine at $40 in store and got the rebate. No shipping charges or anything. Im pretty happy with it overall.

Incidently i was there yesterday and picked up a 9600GT PCI-E for my main rig. I glanced at the PCI card section and all the PNY 8400GS's were gone.

Better get one soon at that price if they are still available online.

 

[Tha General]

wait a min, you have a min rig, whats your specs on the rig which are using pci cards on?