So you only have PCI slots and want to game?

[hrlow2]

Fastest games I play are the Sims2 with some expansion packs. Not up for the newer ones. reaction time and reflexes aren't what they used to be. Have seen some images from some and they do look good. I'll say that for them and they may be fun as heck, but just not my speed.

 

[direwolf007]

<rant>

Let's get some facts straight:

1) P4s suck for modern gaming: A P4 is not able to handle any CPU intensive game well, and bottlenecks any modern powerful video card badly (A 9600GT is bottlenecked by one, not to mention a 9800GTX, HD4850 and above). They can play games on low to medium settings, or play non-CPU intensive games pretty well, but they aren't suited for the latest games (The Sims 2 and Spore are specifically low requirement games, designed for the low-end family computer, so these do not count). I run a P4 as a secondary (More like a quintriary) rig with a half-decent video card (P4 3Ghz, 2GB DDR2 667Mhz and a Radeon X1800XL 512Mb on the PCI-E x 16), and it doesn't cut it.

2) P4s are not high end, not mid-high end, or anything close. They are old tech, outdated, under performing, inefficient processors, which are absolutely silly to buy today for any gaming needs on account of price and performance per watt (Unless, ofcourse, you buy one second-hand and are aware of the above characteristics of said P4s). That said, P3s are even sadder. This does not stop me from building an overclocked Tualatin rig right now - But at least I know that this a hobby of mine, and not an upgrade worth the money (It will run a HD2600Pro AGP card, or a HD2400XT, and will be used as an HTPC - Why, because its fun).

3) Not everyone needs a powerful computer. I run a Via C7-D for my parents' living room needs and my mother's laptop is my old Asus A1000 with a Pentium 3 Mobile 1Ghz and 512Mb of SDRAM and it does all she needs just fine while running Windows XP. What I am saying is that claiming old rigs run games well, especially when they do not, and harping that repeatedly is misleading other people as to what is the best upgrade path is (Hint: Buy a new computer, and sell the old one on Ebay/Whereever). This I find abhorrent and insulting - It is a waste of other people's money ! If someone is aware of that, then go and recommend a PCI video card to them, but telling them "It will run games GREAT !" is simply not acceptable when it isn't true.

4) With 3 in mind, modern gaming does require, at the very least, a low-end dual core CPU, like the E1200 or E1400 (Or a Pentium D, but those are also outdated and overpriced), both of which eat P4s for breakfast and can be found for 40-50$ online. BTW, both are still incredibly weak processors for gaming, but do that (far) better than the P4s.

5) 15 FPS in a game is not a game, it is a slideshow. 9 FPS in a game is a painful slideshow.

6) The P3 cannot run anything new, and definitely not Crysis, at anything approaching playable framerates. The PCI8500GT by Sparkle cannot run Crysis at anything approaching playable framerates, even when run with an E5200 Dual-Core overclocked to 3800Mhz, leaving a small cluster of P3s in the dust for computing performance. With this in mind, it is silly to claim anything to the contrary.

</rant>

Whew, had to get it off my chest.

 

[Rage_3K_Moiz]

^QFT. 15-20FPS is nothing "solid". And spending $100 on a PCI card is plain stupid, when you can save up, spend $100-200 more and get a new CPU, motherboard, RAM and video card that will be faster in every respect.

This thread is only suitable for people who want to play games like the Sims without having to upgrade their entire machine (and not spend more than $50-60 trying to get a new card). Trying to play anything else or paying more than that amount is just a waste.

 

[PCIGamer]

I decided to see how far i could push my 8400gs in my P4 machine. Some interesting numbers came out:

For Crysis i used the Crysis Benchmarking Tool.

Test 1: Crysis - PNY 8400gs PCI at Default Clocks (567/1400/333)

<><><><><><><><><><><><><>>--SUMMARY--<<><><><><><><><><><><><><>

12/29/2008 12:15:34 AM - XP

Run #1- DX9 800x600 AA=No AA, 32 bit test, Quality: Low ~~ Overall Average FPS: 12.555

Test 2: Crysis - PNY 8400gs PCI at Clocks (686/1689/451)

Completed All Tests

<><><><><><><><><><><><><>>--SUMMARY--<<><><><><><><><><><><><><>

12/29/2008 12:15:34 AM - XP

Run #1- DX9 800x600 AA=No AA, 32 bit test, Quality: Low ~~ Overall Average FPS: 16.97


I also benchmarked Fallout 3 using FRAPS. 120 seconds running around outside in the wasteland seems to be the accepted benchmark, here we go:

Test 1: Fallout 3 - 1024x768 "Low" Graphics Setting - PNY 8400gs PCI at Default Clocks (567/1400/333)

Frames, Time (ms), Min, Max, Avg
1829, 120000, 8, 20, 15.242


Test 2: Fallout 3 - 1024x768 "Low" Graphics Setting - PNY 8400gs PCI at Clocks (686/1689/451)


Frames, Time (ms), Min, Max, Avg
1829, 120000, 12, 25, 19.662


Conclusion: The PNY 8400gs overclocks fairly well. You can squeeze a few more FPS out of it but don't expect miracles. The increase in numbers is welcome, but notice that I cant break 20fps average on either game. I doubt that an 8500GT PCI would either. If you must have a PCI graphics card on an old PCI based system I would recommend the 8400gs. At $35 (Microcenter.com) its hard to recommend anything else.

 

[direwolf007]

These results are all but identical to my PCI8500GT at stock clocks when run on my E5200 at 3.8Ghz. The 8500GT overclocks like crazy though. I gained 56% clock on the core and shaders when I checked how far it would stably OC. Didn't have the time to test it OC'ed on my main rig though, so the results in my blog are only for the non-OC'ed version. I doubt it'd improve it by much though.

This also puts any claims of a certain P3 running the game on 1280x1024 with over 20 fps to rest. Ain't gonna happen, and never did.

 

[PCIGamer]

This also puts any claims of a certain P3 running the game on 1280x1024 to rest with over 20 fps. Ain't gonna happen, and never did.

Yes, i concur and call BS on it as well. They are, frankly, misleading and insulting.

 

[PCIGamer]

I went back and looked at your benchmarks. Interesting numbers, about what I expected too. The main difference I am seeing is your highest FPS numbers are much higher than I get. For example 55fps in Fallout 3. I don't think my P4 broke 35fps in either Crysis or Fallout 3 except in menu/status screens and such.

For older gaming it runs great. Doom 3 at High Quality at 1024x768 is a solid 30fps or above. The Half Life 2/Source Video Stress Test clocked in at 45.23fps with everything on High, No AA and Shadows Disabled.

I think im going to do a volt mod on this card and see how much futher i can push it.

 

[electromagnetic]

With what I put about Intel graphics and the Pny 6200 card here is some more info.

http://www3.pny.com/6200-256MB-PCI-P2526C15.aspx

http://www.intel.com/products/chipsets/gma900/index.htm

Compare the two, maybe GPU-Z didn't give the total specifications. In some games like Doom 3 and Crazy Taxi 3, also HOTD3 and maybe Deus Ex Invisible War. They don't even start or run slowly, so the card is good but a little slower than the Intel GMA 900.

If you would like to buy this card it's good but some artefacts appear, do they appear in some other cards like 8400GS, HD2400 Pro, 8500Gt PCI cards ?

I just put the data here to give some info on the card not to say the cards not upgradable to ?

What it's good with you get no blue screens.

 

[Tha General]

Hey Electromagnetic, when i use my bfg 6200, i get artficts in games like TimeShift , you remember that video i had up on youtube when you seen, well there you go. And i get them in World Racing 1 & 2, only when i put on AA.

As for the 8400GS, when i was using it, there was arficts, neither with my 2400HD. The 6200 cards just seem to have them for some reason. Also, i really don't believe the Intel GMA is faster then the 6200.

Don't forget this, is the 6200 OC BFG version stats from GPU-Z

 

[KarmasAlexis]

I notice that whenever you guys talk about your graphic card selections you seem to say things like "if it will fit". So my question is, when choosing a video card or sound card, is the bus interface (slot type) the only thing you have to worry about or is there an issue with size as well?

 

[direwolf007]

I notice that whenever you guys talk about your graphic card selections you seem to say things like "if it will fit". So my question is, when choosing a video card or sound card, is the bus interface (slot type) the only thing you have to worry about or is there an issue with size as well?

Some cases are too small for certain video cards. High end video cards, which are quite large, might not fit between the back of the case and the HDD cages.

In addition, plenty of cases (Especially brand computers and HTPC cases) are "Small Form Factor" and thus do not fit ANY standard height expansion cards. These only fit video (and other) cards which are marked Small Form Factor.

 

[KarmasAlexis]

Some cases are too small for certain video cards. High end video cards, which are quite large, might not fit between the back of the case and the HDD cages.

In addition, plenty of cases (Especially brand computers and HTPC cases) are "Small Form Factor" and thus do not fit ANY standard height expansion cards. These only fit video (and other) cards which are marked Small Form Factor.

Ok, thanks. Is this a big (common) issue? Is it something somebody like me (someone who didn't even know what a video card was and who only came across the term last week when i tried to play my newly installed Sims 2 expansion pack) would have to worry about? And what can I look out for in terms of checking if i have the right size or not?

And terms like 'high end' confuse me. I am in no way, shape, or form technically inclined. I've heard Tha General use the term before. Still don't get it.

 

[direwolf007]

Ok, thanks. Is this a big (common) issue? Is it something somebody like me (someone who didn't even know what a video card was and who only came across the term last week when i tried to play my newly installed Sims 2 expansion pack) would have to worry about? And what can I look out for in terms of checking if i have the right size or not?

And terms like 'high end' confuse me. I am in no way, shape, or form technically inclined. I've heard Tha General use the term before. Still don't get it.

It is a relatively common issue, especially among people with brand-name computers (Which often use smaller cases), as always, if you are not sure, before buying something seek the advice of someone who knows and provide the brand and model of card you wish to buy and the brand, model and specs of your PC.

'High End' means a powerful system or component, while 'Low End' would refer to a weak computer or component, 'Mid Range' would refer to an "average" system. The terms are vague and subjective, but in general the most powerful hardware would be referred to as 'High End', the weakest, or oldest (or both) would be referred to as 'Low End' and 'Mid Range' is the vague area between both.

And no need to feel uncomfortable, just ask and we'll answer.

 

[Tha General]

I bought a PNY 8400GS 512MB PCI, had to take it back, because it was too big , not wide, but too big in height or something. I had to force it in lol, and i think i hit my onboard sound or something. I have to use sound cards now, which is good. So you have to be wary of the cards you choose. I am planning to buy the BFG 8400GS, but i think its the same size as the PNY version, and if it is, i have to buy the Albatron or Sparkle 8400gs. They are nice and cozy for my computer.

As for high end cards, pci cards are not. Direwolf is talking about the powerful PCIE cards, those are high end. PCI cards are not high end, more like low end, but cool tho.
These are high end cards:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814103061

 

[Pioikit]

8400 gs

I've finally got my PNY 8400 GS installed. The driver they sent on CD didn't work, so I had to download the 87M newer one.

Observations: I've heard some on here say this is a big card, but mine is not at all. It's about the size of my modem, though the fan makes it a little wider. It fits fine in one PCI slot (with cards on either side in other PCI slots).

I said I would post stats on here, but I see others have already posted a hot of GPUZ, which just, after all, gives the same specs you can find online anyway. What I'm going to do is download 3DMark, a free benchmarking utility, and post those results. That will take a while, since that program is 680M.

The card works fine. Uru plays much more smoothly than with my Wildcat Realizm (CAD) card, although the Wildcat produced a much richer, deeper color and texture image.

One thing GPUZ has told me is that this card runs consistently at between 100-140 deg. Fahr., which seems high. I keep my case/CPU below 100 at all times, so I wonder if that level of heat is typical of a video card.

 

[Tha General]

I've finally got my PNY 8400 GS installed. The driver they sent on CD didn't work, so I had to download the 87M newer one.

How much did you pay for it?
I paid 80 for the card from staples a while ago.

Don't forget the card also supports Nvidia GPU physics, you can use Physics GPU acceleration. I will download the lastest drivers , that should help performance alot.

I've heard some on here say this is a big card, but mine is not at all. It's about the size of my modem, though the fan makes it a little wider. It fits fine in one PCI slot (with cards on either side in other PCI slots).

Well people was complaining about it over at staples.com and newegg a while ago, the card is not made for small towers. I have a gateway tower from 2000, so my tower is small, but i can use any card that is low profile, like the 2400HD size or the 6200 size, but the PNY, the height or something is too big. I think i could of solve that, by removing the bracket, but that was impossible, it wouldn't come off lol

One thing GPUZ has told me is that this card runs consistently at between 100-140 deg. Fahr., which seems high. I keep my case/CPU below 100 at all times, so I wonder if that level of heat is typical of a video card.

I am confused, what does it at gpu temperature section?

 

[Rage_3K_Moiz]

Why would you want to use such a weak card for PhysX acceleration?

 

[Tha General]

Why would you want to use such a weak card for PhysX acceleration?

Any 8 series and 9 series card supports physx. The 8400GS is not a weak card, it can give you decent frames in games, so i don't see how its weak. Talking about weak, maybe the FX500 or 9250, yea those are weak cards as of now.

 

[Rage_3K_Moiz]

Thanks for clearing that up, didn't know the 8400GS was such a great card. Maybe I'll recommend one the next time someone asks for a good video card.

 

[Pioikit]

I am confused, what does it at gpu temperature section?[/QUOTE]

? General! take some English classes! lol. GPUZ monitors the GPU operating temperature; it logs, for my 8400 GS, temperatures ranging between 40 and 53 degrees Celsius (100-140 Fah.). I just wondered if those were too high. The fan on the card is operational.

I looked at my game on both cards again today, and the difference between them in clarity, sharpness, and depth and richness of color, is startling. The Wildcat card totally outclasses the 8400 in all those areas (although, again because it's designed for CAD, it doesn't produce smooth motion, a necessity for gaming). Maybe I can tweak 8400's settings to improve this.

 

[Tha General]

? General! take some English classes! lol.

That has nothing to do with my english, i was typing to fast and forgot to add the word " say " and i forgot to word it as, What does the temp say in the GPU temperature section.

GPUZ monitors the GPU operating temperature; it logs, for my 8400 GS, temperatures ranging between 40 and 53 degrees Celsius (100-140 Fah.). I just wondered if those were too high. The fan on the card is operational.

I already know what gpu-z does, you said 100-140 fah, i never heard that term before, just say 40-53c and get done with it lol. Anyways, 40c to 53c is perfect temps. My BFG 6200 when i use it, stays at 42c to 57c. One time when i was playing Jericho , it jump up to 62, but drop back to 50c in a matter of seconds. So it jumps around a bit.

I looked at my game on both cards again today, and the difference between them in clarity, sharpness, and depth and richness of color, is startling. The Wildcat card totally outclasses the 8400 in all those areas (although, again because it's designed for CAD, it doesn't produce smooth motion, a necessity for gaming). Maybe I can tweak 8400's settings to improve this.

Never heard of this wildcat card, but isn't that a PCIE graphics card?

 

[FusilliJerry82]

the 8400GS is not a "good" card. It may be "adequate" but just because it can handle the absolute minimum frame rates does not make it "good". To recommend this card to someone who wants something is quality is doing them a disservice. \

Physx does not help framerates; it lowers them.

 

[PCIGamer]

Good is a relative term. Obviously its a very poor card in the grand scheme of things.

It's a "good" card in a PCI only system, arguably the best one on the market today if you consider the 8500GT being alot more expensive for only a minor increase in performance.

For older games such as Doom 3, Half Life 2, CounterStrike Source and general Xbox era games like Fable , GTA 3, Vice City, San Andreas, Halo, Halo 2 etc it is a very good performer.

 

[PCIGamer]

I am confused, what does it at gpu temperature section?
I looked at my game on both cards again today, and the difference between them in clarity, sharpness, and depth and richness of color, is startling. The Wildcat card totally outclasses the 8400 in all those areas (although, again because it's designed for CAD, it doesn't produce smooth motion, a necessity for gaming). Maybe I can tweak 8400's settings to improve this.

The Nvidia drivers have "Digital Vibrance" setting which you can adjust to improve the richness of color. Give it a try and it should be better for you

 

[MetalX]

I remember the days when you could never hope to run Doom 3 on a PCI card. There's only so much you can do on a PCI card. I'd never recommend one to anyone and tell them that it will perform "well".