Tech firms including Microsoft, Apple, and SpaceX lose senior staff over return-to-office mandates, claims study

[Neatfeatguy]

Apparently did not read the article ^^

Sure did. Your position in a company like these makes zero difference - you can be replaced. It's okay if you don't understand my position, I'm not here to make you.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

YOU are the employee...THEY are the employer.
THEY make the rules. If you don't like it...QUIT.

And that's exactly what I did. I quit. I already had another offer to be fully remote. And when I did, my current employer immediately came back and offered me full remote if I would stay, as they were having problems finding people with my skill set. They offered full remote, and to their credit, have honored that deal ever since.

 

[Dimitriid]

There's such a glut of IT staff looking for work after all the massive layoffs at Google, Dell, etc...that these "senior staffers" won't be missed at all if/when they leave. They'll be easily replaced by people who are willing to work in the office.

Your logic seems flawed: If you lose senior staff you can't replace them with just someone who isn't as experienced and not expect disastrous results.

So if you start from the point of thinking 'We didn't actually plan on losing a senior staff member' then you can't just easily replace them with someone easily. So you're not really looking to hire a 21 year old kid for 30k a year since he would immediately fold under the requirements for that position, you're looking to hire a 300k a year senior dev that got fired from Google or Dell, etc.

Truth is people with that skill set and previous experience on high paying jobs are just not going to be as easy to roll over as you think even if they're currently unemployed they probably have enough assets and savings to just weather the storm for longer than what you'd expect, at least a couple of years, before taking a crappy position that is broadcasting that they pretty much chased out senior staff member.

 

[ScottSoapbox]

YOU are the employee...THEY are the employer.
THEY make the rules. If you don't like it...QUIT.

That is *literally* what they did.

Quit and got hired by a competitor with remote work.

 

[wujj123456]

it must be very nice being able to quit your job just because you don't want to work from the very same place you ORIGINALLY SIGNED to work from.

At least in my company, there are a lot of senior staff hired remotely when the pandemic forced the company to be open to such candidates. Many software companies grew a lot during the period and I wouldn't be surprised if the people left first are the ones hired to be remote at first place and cannot relocate. In fact even after our hybrid work mandate, we are still open to remote positions for senior staff only. They are just very hard to acquire in the current situation.

In addition, like half of my team actually moved to different states because of the benefit of remote work, so their situation is no longer the same as when they originally signed to work. Company supported their move and adjusted compensation accordingly. That's not much different from people moving onto a different job when personal situation change, and RTO mandate happens to change the situation.

Unfortunately, I don't think any study can separate these nuances, because that's private company data. I also think media makes it sound like a much more contentious issue but in reality, all people I know that quit appreciated the work at company and the company is open to re-hire them too. A few have since come back, with some even remained remote. Both sides are just making a decision they believe to be the best and making peace with each other.

 

[Puiu]

The important piece here is studies repeatedly showing, time and time again, that remote work has basically no impact to productivity but most of these companies saying 'Our internal data is different' without actually making said data public.

Sorry if I don't take 'Just trust me bro' from millionaire executives that as it's been implied, likely have interests beyond just productivity like justifying their now rendered mostly useless management positions along with higher ups being invested in the real estate side of having office space to begin with.

Also people really like to blame de pandemic but I had been working remote for 4 years before the pandemic ever started and remote positions were already becoming commonplace for many positions at least, that's something that these executives never speak to: people were already considering if not leaving for other positions offering remote, the only thing the pandemic did was demonstrate pretty much without doubt, why almost all office jobs were no longer necessary to do 'in office' by forcing everyone into remote and productivity basically staying the same.

Now a lot more people know they never actually needed to spend a quarter of their lives stuck in traffic that's the only difference.

Then I'll be the one to say it and I'm not a millionaire:

Trust me bro, remote work destroys team cohesion and workflow. Any early productivity gains from working from home quickly disappear in time. There are some exceptions, but this is the trend seen everywhere.

The only people who told that the company has been doing better are those who already worked a lot using zoom meetings (international teams) and those that didn't really work as team with a lot of individual tasks.

And god... the poor new employees/juniors. Zoom calls just don't work when it comes to teaching them.

 

[Kotters]

Then I'll be the one to say it and I'm not a millionaire:

Trust me bro, remote work destroys team cohesion and workflow. Any early productivity gains from working from home quickly disappear in time. There are some exceptions, but this is the trend seen everywhere.

The only people who told that the company has been doing better are those who already worked a lot using zoom meetings (international teams) and those that didn't really work as team with a lot of individual tasks.

And god... the poor new employees/juniors. Zoom calls just don't work when it comes to teaching them.

An anecdote that runs contrary to other anecdotes I've heard, from people I know far better. You're going to need more than this to meaningfully interact on the internet. Or we're going to have to accept that everyone is dead certain their opinion is the one supported by reality.

 

[Squid Surprise]

It really depends on the job and the company... there are many jobs where you can be just as productive virtually than in person (or even more productive)... but there are plenty where you relaly need to be in person to be productive.

Alas, I'm an elementary school teacher and trust me - online teaching for children that age is a complete waste of time.

 

[JupitersMoon]

I see a lot of negative comments about people choosing to leave a company rather than RTO. Personally, I think it's a win-win for these people leaving these tech companies in order to maintain a better quality of life. These companies can let you go at the drop of a dime to please wealthy shareholders yet they must provide 2 weeks prior to give these companies time to get their ducks in a row. It's about time that employees take power back into their hands. Good for them..

 

[Puiu]

An anecdote that runs contrary to other anecdotes I've heard, from people I know far better. You're going to need more than this to meaningfully interact on the internet. Or we're going to have to accept that everyone is dead certain their opinion is the one supported by reality.

All studies I've seen so far that are pro or against working from home are just completely useless. Everybody used a different "productivity" definition/metric, the methodology usually is skewed towards certain types of jobs and/or focuses just in a single geographical area/market. All I can do is rely on my own personal experience and those around me.

I can link several studies that talk about how "productivity is lower" when working from home. But I don't want to since even I can see the flaws.

If you have to interact with team on regular basis, working from home is a nightmare. This much os obvious. The individual can objectively have higher productivity, but if the team is not working as a well oiled machine then it is still a loss in productivity and it creates a ton of friction between people.

There is also another issue that is very obvious: with zero in-person interactions, you cannot grow a team, you can only grow individuals. This is a huge issue for most companies.

 

[amstech]

As I said:

it must be very nice being able to quit your job just because you don't want to work from the very same place you ORIGINALLY SIGNED to work from.

A totally spoiled culture.

The whimpering woke liberal brat is destroying this Country.
We live in a generation of entitled spoiled brats and America is quickly spiraling downward in every category of society because the whimpering woke liberal brat doesn't have any discipline or accountability.
And this site still talks about new GPU's and CPU's like the USA isn't a complete dumpster fire.

I'll start caring about the new RTX GPU's when you left wing babies stop voting for people that think its okay for men to use womans bathrooms. The degenerate rot of this Country, thanks to liberals and democrats is at an all-time high. The prices of everything have doubled. The USA is a pathetic degenerate joke, apologies for not giving a **** about new technology at this point.

 

[mgwerner]

"Taking their productivity levels with them"

Taking their entitled, narcissistic attitudes and mental illness with them, too. Worth it.

 

[Puiu]

The whimpering woke liberal brat is destroying this Country.
We live in a generation of entitled spoiled brats and America is quickly spiraling downward in every category of society because the whimpering woke liberal brat doesn't have any discipline or accountability.
And this site still talks about new GPU's and CPU's like the USA isn't a complete dumpster fire.

I'll start caring about the new RTX GPU's when you left wing babies stop voting for people that think its okay for men to use womans bathrooms. The degenerate rot of this Country, thanks to liberals and democrats is at an all-time high. The prices of everything have doubled. The USA is a pathetic degenerate joke, apologies for not giving a **** about new technology at this point.

you are objectively wrong (not that I would expect anything else from such a comment). the previous generations were the spoiled ones, the newer generations are saddled with debt, low wages and high prices, while the wealth is being more and more concentrated in the top 1%.

ah yes, the problem is "people wanting and talking about a GPU on tech website", not that they can't buy a house or pay for their education. Not that they have to work 2 jobs just to survive. (at least in the US)

I'm not in favour of working from home, but let's be real, all that you said makes zero sense. it ignores reality.

yeah, it is sad to see the USA in such a state. the GOP pretty much abandoned the next generations. from gun laws, to health and education, the GOP shut down every single thing. they don't even want to discuss it. their only accomplishment is killing women and forcing 10yo rape victims to give birth (this is a real thing, google it).

 

[amstech]

you are objectively wrong

Like most liberals you confuse subjective viewpoints with objective truth, nothing you said has any objective truth at all.
Inflation rates from 2016-2020 were 2.3% under Trump, from 2020-2024 they've been around 8-12%. This has nothing to do with COVID, it has to do with printing money (controlled by Government) and terrible policies. The GOP spent money but never printed it, thats the difference.
So, the worth of the dollar under Biden has significantly decreased, while the prices of goods in the past 4 years have doubled. Grocery prices on Orange Juice, Coffee, Bread, Eggs, Chicken breast, beef, rice, tomatoes, potatoes, milk, butter, bananas and cereal have all basically doubled. I have the chart if you want to see it. For example a 2lb chicken breast in 2019 was 4.99, its now 7.99.
Thats the objective truth.
If you try to argue this objective truth, or say it has anything to do with the GOP, your just being a whimpering woke liberal brat doing what whimpering woke liberal brats do, rejecting reality and basic truth.
As far as working from home and todays economy, its in terrible terrible shape. My credit score is around 800 and I gross 140K a year, but the money isnt worth ****. In 2018 if I wanted to take a 20K personal loan I would pay about 5% interest. Today, even with more money and a better credit score the best your getting is 9-10% interest. This is directly related to banks being gutted by government policies and citizens not being responsible with their spending. Accountability and discipline have been removed from society and this is what you get.
Dollar Tree closed 600 stores, CVS is closing 900 stores, Walgreens is closing 150 stores, Outback Steakhouse has closed 40 of its locations, UPS is cutting 12,000 jobs this year, Citigroup is cutting 20,000 jobs, Ebay cut around 1000, Microsoft is cutting 1900 positions, Expedia is cutting 1500, Cisco is cutting 4000, Apple cutting 600. Regal Cinemas is cutting 429. My local Mall used to be a buzz, now the food court that once had 18 places to eat has 4 left. Krogers is shutting down 413 stores, Foot Locker is closing 400 stores by 2026, Macy's is cutting 150 locations by 2026. One of their longest open locations in California shut down after decades of being open.
This is what happens when you introduce socialist policies, tell kids to hate their country, focus on inclusion and diversity instead of hardwork and achievement.
Kids bitching about not being able to work from home is a problem. They are entitled brats that have never had any real trauma or issues to overcome and this nation is full of whimpering woke liberal brats and degenerate behavior thats rotting the country from the inside out.
AMERICA FIRST.
Stop sending money to other Countries.
Remove the government from marriage, it rewards woman for divorce, which is why 80% of woman initiate divorce. Bring back the nuclear family, and teach kids to be financially independent, and what work it takes to get there. Democrat/Liberal policies have turned the USA into a degenerate shithole and I am sick of whimpering woke liberal brats like you who will point the finger at everyone but yourselves. Your all just spoiled brats.

 

[Puiu]

Like most liberals you confuse subjective viewpoints with objective truth, nothing you said has any objective truth at all.
Inflation rates from 2016-2020 were 2.3% under Trump, from 2020-2024 they've been around 8-12%. This has nothing to do with COVID, it has to do with printing money (controlled by Government) and terrible policies. The GOP spent money but never printed it, thats the difference.
So, the worth of the dollar under Biden has significantly decreased, while the prices of goods in the past 4 years have doubled. Grocery prices on Orange Juice, Coffee, Bread, Eggs, Chicken breast, beef, rice, tomatoes, potatoes, milk, butter, bananas and cereal have all basically doubled. I have the chart if you want to see it. For example a 2lb chicken breast in 2019 was 4.99, its now 7.99.
Thats the objective truth.
If you try to argue this objective truth, or say it has anything to do with the GOP, your just being a whimpering woke liberal brat doing what whimpering woke liberal brats do, rejecting reality and basic truth.
As far as working from home and todays economy, its in terrible terrible shape. My credit score is around 800 and I gross 140K a year, but the money isnt worth ****. In 2018 if I wanted to take a 20K personal loan I would pay about 5% interest. Today, even with more money and a better credit score the best your getting is 9-10% interest. This is directly related to banks being gutted by government policies and citizens not being responsible with their spending. Accountability and discipline have been removed from society and this is what you get.
Dollar Tree closed 600 stores, CVS is closing 900 stores, Walgreens is closing 150 stores, Outback Steakhouse has closed 40 of its locations, UPS is cutting 12,000 jobs this year, Citigroup is cutting 20,000 jobs, Ebay cut around 1000, Microsoft is cutting 1900 positions, Expedia is cutting 1500, Cisco is cutting 4000, Apple cutting 600. Regal Cinemas is cutting 429. My local Mall used to be a buzz, now the food court that once had 18 places to eat has 4 left. Krogers is shutting down 413 stores, Foot Locker is closing 400 stores by 2026, Macy's is cutting 150 locations by 2026. One of their longest open locations in California shut down after decades of being open.
This is what happens when you introduce socialist policies, tell kids to hate their country, focus on inclusion and diversity instead of hardwork and achievement.
Kids bitching about not being able to work from home is a problem. They are entitled brats that have never had any real trauma or issues to overcome and this nation is full of whimpering woke liberal brats and degenerate behavior thats rotting the country from the inside out.
AMERICA FIRST.
Stop sending money to other Countries.
Remove the government from marriage, it rewards woman for divorce, which is why 80% of woman initiate divorce. Bring back the nuclear family, and teach kids to be financially independent, and what work it takes to get there. Democrat/Liberal policies have turned the USA into a degenerate shithole and I am sick of whimpering woke liberal brats like you who will point the finger at everyone but yourselves. Your all just spoiled brats.

This is why people make fun of you trump supporters:

1. inflation under Biden is not 8-12%. it was 8% only 2022 because of the war and it was 3-4% in other years. the US is not insulated from global economic issues. nobody believes that under trump the crisis would have been managed any better.

2. "The GOP spent money but never printed it, thats the difference." - yeah, they spend so much that they set a new records of debt increase. they also gave tax cuts to large corporations and the rich.

3. prices have not doubled, far from it. another exaggeration that I've seen trump supporters yell. cumulative inflation is at about 21%.
as for your example, here are the real yearly prices: https://www.statista.com/statistics/236836/retail-price-of-chicken-breast-in-the-united-states/
2022 was the worst year for obvious reasons, in 2023 prices fell, and looking at walmart prices, 2024 prices for chicken breast fell again under 4/lb.

4. I don't care about your personal debt/issues, it's not relevant

5. oh boy, fast food restaurants and other cheap stores are closing, I wonder why... once minimum salary were raised, the majority of restaurants that were paying nothing their employees started not making any profit. go figure. it doesn't help that after the pandemic fewer and fewer people visit restaurants and just prefer to order online.

and didn't Family Dollar (Dollar Tree) get a big 50mil fine recently? they also announced that they are opening 800 stores this year. it destroys your entire argument.

how can restaurants in europe do better than those in the US with higher food prices, higher inflation, higher wages, no hidden fees and less reliance on tips? it's because they set realistic prices and realistic sizes for servings. it was about time the US got back on track (higher wages and bans on hidden fees are a good start for 2023-2024).

6. "tell kids to hate their country" - that's what the GOP is doing. the slogan is literally "follow us or you are enemies", it's why the country is so divided and it is also why the GOP is making zero reforms and are only stopping bils.

I keep hearing republicans confusing "socialist policies" with communism. how about you travel a bit before talking about these policies? broaden your horizon, the US is not the world. proper social policies are the backbone of modern societies.

7. "America First" - I heard this so much from maga... since when is helping other countries not america first? you are literally going against what the US stands for. you are siding with criminals and dictators.

8. "which is why 80% of woman initiate divorce" - that would be infidelity, lack of family support, conflict/arguing and plain and simple incompatibility. not because of some other mythical reason. do you know nobody who divorced?

Here's what I consider a real degenerate: somebody supporting trump's fraudulent activities, rape and other criminal activities, somebody who supports his decadent behaviour, somebody who quotes his obvious lies. Not some random "woke" person who is angry that his sandwich wasn't vegan.

 

[amstech]

This is why people make fun of you trump supporters:

1. inflation under Biden is not 8-12%. it was 8% only 2022 because of the war and it was 3-4% in other years. the US is not insulated from global economic issues. nobody believes that under trump the crisis would have been managed any better.

Alot of whimpering and complaining, but no objective truth. Try again.