Tesla starts selling $10,000-cheaper Model S and Model X variants with shorter ranges

[takaozo]

Not everyone is poor.

Mwahahaha you're so funny. There are better things to spend 100K than a ton of iron and plastic. In a crush metal bends the same no matter if it's a Renault or Ferrari.
Also what else lose 10-30% value just moving from the dealer to the first owner?
Buy a car and try to sale it the next hour, you would see my point.

 

[scavengerspc]

In a crush metal bends the same no matter if it's a Renault or Ferrari.
Also what else lose 10-30% value just moving from the dealer to the first owner?
Buy a car and try to sale it the next hour, you would see my point.

And those things are true (though the numbers change a bit) if it's an EV or a smoke pump.

There are better things to spend 100K than a ton of iron and plastic.

And what happens if that $100K is disposable income?
Spending disposable income rarely makes sense to everyone, be it $20 or $100K.

 

[brucek]

Even with 25% less battery it's still cheaper to keep one production line than alter the model. It would be more expensive to develop, build and integrate a smaller battery into the design. Also, the larger battery using less of it' capacity will last much longer so will be good for resale values down the line.

Again I want to see the spreadsheet demonstrating that. How few do they have to expect to sell for that to hold?

We're talking about minimum several thousand dollars worth of battery cost to Tesla per vehicle here, no?

I guess this makes sense if all this really is they want to close out a handful of leftover vehicles and this is really no different from a sales promotion where they drop their margin to $0 or even less.

But if this is an ongoing strategy for vehicles they hope to eventually sell millions of it comes out to billions of dollars of thrown away materials. That has to cover tweaking an assembly line to insert a smaller capacity battery (even if they keep it physically the same size.)

It would also suggest competition is not yet working in this space, as a competitor ought to be able to destroy their price/value ratio with a setup that doesn't add 25% useless battery cost to every non-premium vehicle, which is generally where the volume is.

 

[nulll]

Apologies. It was late and I was very tired when I wrote that.

FWIW, I used to work for a big company that purchased its competitors products and tore them apart for analysis. Its commonly done. Personally, I think Tesla should worry about that. If Toyota truly does think the product is a work of art (which I doubt given Japanese culture and the plethora of complaints about Teslas and these Tesla news items

US opens investigation into fatal Tesla crash in Virginia

U.S. auto safety regulators said Thursday they are opening a special crash investigation into a fatal accident in Virginia involving a Tesla Model Y suspected of relying on advanced driver assistance systems and striking a heavy truck.

www.reuters.com

Tesla under Criminal Investigation from U.S. Department of Justice

A Reuters report says the feds have been investigating the EV maker for more than a year because of alleged claims that its cars can drive themselves.

www.caranddriver.com

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/01/business/tesla-steering-investigation/index.html )
Hot stuff. I want to own a Tesla - so I can have headaches for the entire time I own one.
Anything Tesla can do Toyota will do better.

That said, one of the articles you referenced panned Toyota's EV sales because they are in the single-digits percentage wise. The article, however, seemed to fail to pay any attention to the fact that Toyota currently has only one full EV model for sale. One EV model and some talking head is panning Toyota's EV sales because they are only in the single digits percentage wise while other manufacturers have multiple EV only models and the other manufacturers are selling more of them? Wow! That's dire news for Toyota.

And how about the article that reference the problems with the bZX4? Unlike Tesla, which seems to think its customers qualify as beta testers, Toyota stopped bZX4 production to address the issues before it went on sale. No other automobile manufacturer does that. Tesla among many others, OTOH, needs to have their arms twisted by the NHSTA/NTSB in the US to recall vehicles. Toyota is an example of what I call integrity - an integrity that no other automobile manufacturer has or has demonstrated by their actions.

Product development takes a long time. With Toyota's recent announcement of when they expect to have it in production, I would not at all be surprised if they do.

That's the thing about Toyota. Although one can arguably claim that they are not perfect, after all, what company is, they tend to keep quiet about their R & D and product development until they have something. IIRC, their public statements about the Mirai were similarly done - and yet the Mirai is available to purchase even though it took probably more than a decade to develop it.

And there are other battery manufacturers out there testing advanced batteries. For instance, this - https://graphenemg.com/energy-storage-solutions/aluminum-ion-battery/

With all the research and product development going on in the battery industry, what does it matter who ends up producing a battery suitable to the task? The point is that an advancement in electric storage technology is one of the steps needed to make EVs a reality.

And one of those articles mentioned the change in Toyota leadership. Personally, I was not happy with the policy on EVs that Toyota publicly announced a couple of years ago, and others were equally disappointed. I highly suspect that that announcement was the reason that Toyota hired a new CEO. Companies that realize their missteps and take action to correct them are the ones that survive.

I worked for a company (the same company I mentioned above) that once employed in excess of 70,000 employees, and they refused to change course. Even if they knew a decision was bad, they stuck with it and refused to reverse it or change course to a better path. As I understood it, it was literally company policy. Now, that company employs something like 1,200 employees and is a distant memory of its former self. IMO, no one and no company can BS their way through a bad decision and expect to survive without taking action to correct the BS and eliminate it.

No apologies required, growing up in Newfoundland I've been called a "**** disturber" since I was about 5 so I'm well prepared to get some on my shoes from time to time!

Firstly you were quite correct regarding the capacity lock on the new S and X batteries as it was officially confirmed by Tesla to multiple outlets over the last few days, I still can't see the logic in it but the fact remains I called it wrong.

Any mechanical defect in steering systems needs to be investigated with excruciating attention to detail, I've always viewed drive by wire as a step in the wrong direction and the suggestion these days that manufacturers should start looking at steering by wire gives me chills. The power steering in my C300 went out during Targa Newfoundland in 2015, going into a corner in a small fishing outport at speed in a 3800lb German pig and suddenly realizing that you're having to man handle the steering on a car with sticky tires on it was not my idea of fun. Regulators need to take a look at ensuring that the raw ratio on the steering rack is something reasonable for the average person to handle, say 2:1 at maximum or something similar.

I campaigned a 2007 Corolla stick shift to many time speed distance and Auto X wins between 2008 and 2014 leading me to almost purchase an FRS when they were new but I simply got a better deal on the Merc. I'm extremely critical of GM and Toyota for these reasons as from my perspective they're hilariously squandering their lead, experience and brand cache. There is genuine utility in waiting till the volatility of the technology begins to settle down into a clear and obvious battery design and chemistry but it is looking more all the time as though both GM and Toyota have become far too ossified to be able to perceive their position or act on it. Toyota really needs to get their game face on with serious efforts into a small reasonably priced EV based on currently available 4680 LPF batteries, CATL just announced their next two refinements to the cells they sell to Tesla and a pile of other clients in the last day or so. They'll license their tech to damn near anybody and they've proven to be a solid battery provider. A Prius Prime in full EV trim with a different floor pan design allowing a 45-60KWh CATL LPF battery for over 400Km of range while keeping the solar cells and sleek design would be a hell of a good start. Instead they just announced the new Land Cruiser isn't electric or hybrid and most likely never will be, kinda infuriating honestly. The Mirai is genuinely interesting as a proof of concept, the realities of Hydrogen storage, transport and the cost of production and maintenance of fuel cells means its just never going to be feasible.

With the advancements in battery chemistry and the wild collection of novel approaches being entertained it is looking like we're easily going to see proper SSB cells in production vehicles before 2030, realistically I'd say we're looking at several different specific chemistries as different teams push resources into avoiding a wide variety of fail states. In the mean time GM investing in Mitra chem out of California to get their own specific LPF (possibly with manganese as well) type cells. For now it's early and only $66 million but the auto industry needs to get in gear with home grown battery tech as China's looming demographic collapse isn't making their manufacturing and less costly or more stable.

GM Patents Dual Charging Port Tech With Huge Possibilities for EV Trucks

Split that big battery pack into two virtual bits, charge ‘em separately with individual charge cables.

www.motortrend.com

As a life long fan of the simplicity of the pushrod V8 the fact that GM set out to solve the issue of charging rate by simply doubling up the chargers is delightful. Kinda crude but for the class of EV work trucks and vans that will eventually take over from todays 3500, 4500 and 5500 series it makes a lot of sense and is the most amazing version of barn door engineering I've yet seen in the tech space.

 

[Endymio]

GM set out to solve the issue of charging rate by simply doubling up the chargers...[it] is the most amazing version of barn door engineering I've yet seen in the tech space.

It's important to note that this doesn't allow doubling the fast-charge rate. You can charge via one port only at 800v, or use two slower 400v chargers. You also have the third option to use one 800v charger, while you simultaneously discharge (into a second vehicle, say) from the other port.