Tesla unveils AWD Model S with dual motors, new driver assist features

[MilwaukeeMike]

If they're not turning a profit according to GAAP they're not turning profit. We should ask Elon Musk how he would feel about his business if the subsidies were taken away. His business has hit a green spot (pardon the pun) between government favoritism and consumer favoritism so I don't fault him for exploiting it to the fullest. It's just that his business is heavily leveraged in the way of government assistance and can seriously hamper his business in the long run.

if you have $100 in your pocket, but you write down that you don't, do you still have $100 in your pocket? profit or not, according to their income statement, they've increased revenue 10 fold in 2 years. from 200 million to 2 billion. That's crazy.

I wish I knew how much assistance they got and how much it helped. I know Elon just took Nevada to the cleaners on that gigafactory deal (and by cleaners, I mean, he bent them over a barrel...and all Nevada said was 'Thank you sir, can I have another!'.), and playing 4 states off each other to squeeze the best deal out of them should be enough to give anyone faith that he'll continue to meet whatever demands are required of 'green' companies to get fat subsidies. The govt probably won't single him out for anything... not after they did that with Solyndra.

 

[davislane1]

All those economic problems affect the middle class... not luxury car owners. I don't agree with the loans defaulting, but anyway, that's the bank's problem not Tesla. I doubt (although I don't know) that Tesla runs it's own financing. And even then, the bank can just repossess the car. Cars are on 5 year loans so they can't depreciate faster than the principal is paid down.

Being in the middle income bracket does not preclude one from owning a luxury car. In fact, most luxury car purchases are made by mid and upper-middle class earners. The problems I referenced impact most luxury car owners just as well because they tend not only to be financially over-extended but at risk for outsourcing, automation, and labor competition. We're talking Merc, BMW, Lexus, Tesla buyers here, not Bentley. It is only once you get into the truly expensive segment ($140,000+ MSRP) of luxury automotives that these are less of an issue (because the client base changes). Furthermore, large-scale defaulting on auto loans is bad for Tesla. Once more defaults start happening, the risk managers at the banks will tighten their auto lending requirements; no loans, no sales. This will impact volume sellers the most, but Tesla won't be insulated.

Anecdotally, I know two former car salesmen who quit and moved to different industries for just this reason. They got tired of selling BMWs and Lexuses (sp?) to customers who couldn't afford the lease/financing just so the dealership could get paid. This was back in the late 90s and early 2000s, when the economic environment the outlook was much better. My point is, just because someone drives an expensive car does not mean they are in good financial health (or high-income).

I'd say their biggest risk is not being able to get costs down to get into the mainstream market, and beating out the big dogs' fuel cell and electric cars in the future.

That's the other part of their problem. Sooner or later they will gain a presence in the more affordable mark segments, but their Achilles' heel is the all-electric platform.

 

[wiyosaya]

Those videos on youtube of Tesla catching fire, I would'n want to get out, given how much a financial loss it causes might as well burn along

Personally, if he is not already doing so, I think Musk should invest some serious cash into bringing one of the recent developments in ultracapacitors to market such as - http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceed...anocomposites/MULTIFUNC NANOCOMP/E3.12 Do.pdf

However, we still have people out there trying to use 21st century battery technology for EVs, and it seems that Musk is more interested in profit than really making a contribution to EV technology that has long-term impacts. Even with a 300 mile range, EVs are still a step behind ICEs as I see it. When we get beyond chemical reaction based electricity storage, I.e., batteries, in my not so humble opinion, that is when the industry will really get somewhere.

In the meantime, it will always be easy for the competition, I.e., any company out there who makes ICE based vehicles, to pay someone to make a video that gives the impression that a particular problem with the competing technology is far greater than it is in reality - just like the article from several years back where a shill was paid to produce a report that a Hummer was greener over its lifetime than a Prius. It is called "Marketing." However, look where Hummer is, or should I say is not, now...

 

[SNGX1275]

However, we still have people out there trying to use 21st century battery technology for EVs, and it seems that Musk is more interested in profit than really making a contribution to EV technology that has long-term impacts. Even with a 300 mile range, EVs are still a step behind ICEs as I see it. When we get beyond chemical reaction based electricity storage, I.e., batteries, in my not so humble opinion, that is when the industry will really get somewhere.

Interesting paragraph. I have worked on engines on dynos and dipped into biofuels for a bit of my professional career, but not directly in the automotive field. I also did graduate work on CO2 sequestration so I have some knowledge of the power generation in the US and the emissions involved. I'm only saying this because I have a bit more knowledge than the general public but perhaps not as much as someone that is heavily interested in this stuff. What I quoted was something that stood out to me, I'm not sure I have a whole lot to say about that right now, other than I think Musk's vision is to have charging stations be almost as accessible as gas stations, so then that 3-400 mile range isn't something petro-vehicles can hold above EV.

I think from a moral standpoint you might be able to argue that is the wrong direction to go, and like you suggest, battery advancement perhaps the best direction. However, battery tech is like fission, its always the same amount of years away from a breakthrough no matter what year it actually is. So you could invest a lot of money in new battery tech and if history tells us much, it is that you aren't likely to see much return on that investment. Sure batteries are better now than they were 10 years ago, but not really that much better. Back in the late 90s RC cars started shifting from NiCad to NiMH, its almost 2 decades later and we still use NiMH for a lot of things. Lithium has began to pick up in the last 10-12 years depending on the industry, but these are not incredible advancements like we've been hearing about forever.

 

[tonylukac]

Don't airplanes have autopilot. Why don' t they use that?

 

[Moxiy]

This is insane! how much would it cost me to acquire this?

 

[Darth Shiv]

The costs of the Tesla are made up over the course of it's lifetime. Gas = ~$4/gallon = ~40 miles. Electricity = ~0.10cents/kw * 85 kwH for full charge = $0.85 to go ~300 miles.

That's $8.50 not 85c. And you are lucky with electricity prices. Minor reference, electricity prices here are closer to about USD$0.20/kWh and on some plans, charging in peak hours is double that again.

 

[Stash]

I have read all the comments and there are some good points here. But, if I may say, these electrics cars have not been widely adopted yet. As such, the cost of production will be far higher than conventional cars. However, if we look at the growth rate of the Tesla vehicles, year on year, one cannot deny that the growth is phenomenal. Much like with tablets, they started off expensive. Market adoption is arguably the most important thing needed in order to advance this drive.

Personally, I am impressed by Elon Musk. Lets not look at the Profit vs Loss business model. Instead, let us look at this from an advancement of mankind standpoint. This man has realised that:
A) Fossil fuels are not becoming cheaper
B) Fossil fuels are running out
C) New technology is needed for the advancement of mankind

He has taken a huge risk. But, in taking this risk, he is changing the market as we know it, he is changing the way we interact with the world and our environment and he is taking a huge risk. His vision is not for his vehicles to be ridiculously over priced, but right now, with the number of units that he is pushing, it is the best that he can do. He took it upon himself to build charging stations and has a plan to have coverage over the whole of the USA. He has not planned to take over the world in a short period of time and he isn't even really trying to dominate and monopolise the market as most of us seem to think. I think that he is making a concerted age to push us into an era of savings both financially, and in terms of eco-friendliness.

Lets stop thinking about the here and now and let us begin to think about 15 years from now. With Elon Musk creating a real push for battery technology to improve on the heavy duty side and mobile device users pushing for better battery tech on the smaller scale, do you really think that this venture will remain as is? This man is a pioneer and an entrepreneur, he has taken huge risks and keeps taking these risks for the rest of mankind.

Which company do you know that will give you a complete money back guarantee on your vehicle? Which company do you know for a fact that is consistently pushing the boundaries of current technology in order to make their cars as durable as possible? I live in africa and with each new model that comes out, I feel like they are making vehicles as breakable as possible! Elon Musk is trying to cut costs as far as possible, hence having almost every single component of their vehicles designed and manufactured in house. This also helps because then they are able to control safety as well. He has created how many new jobs? 2400?

What happens when solar tech evolves as well? There has been a huge push in that direction. I would not purchase any of the vehicles right now because:
A) They are out of my price range
B) We do not have the charging stations in Africa YET
C) The technology is still relatively new and will take a while for the prices to drop as market adoption increases as well as for most of the mistakes and/or faults to be resolved.

However, I do believe that Elon Musk is changing the way we commute in a big way and that this new tech is just a mouse hole entryway into a huge, hidden cavern.

 

[captaincranky]

That's $8.50 not 85c. And you are lucky with electricity prices. Minor reference, electricity prices here are closer to about USD$0.20/kWh and on some plans, charging in peak hours is double that again.

Not to mention the fact that when electric cars are the norm, there won't be any "off peak hours". In fact, we'd likely have to build a few more nukes to accommodate, "the fleet".

All of that notwithstanding, Elon Musk is still a windbag and a carnival barker. He always has a reason for not turning a profit. So yes, he paid off his debt to the US government ahead of time, (hey, plus one Elon), erstwhile he was borrowing from the private sector to do it.

Then there was the whole, "it wouldn't be that hard to build a flying car" fiasco. Well gee Mr Musk, how much would people have to hand you, to get the whole thing, "off the ground", so to speak?

It must be fun being a charismatic, 'cause all you need are big plans and a megaphone.

 

[davislane1]

Personally, I am impressed by Elon Musk. Lets not look at the Profit vs Loss business model. Instead, let us look at this from an advancement of mankind standpoint. This man has realised that:
A) Fossil fuels are not becoming cheaper
B) Fossil fuels are running out
C) New technology is needed for the advancement of mankind

He has taken a huge risk. But, in taking this risk, he is changing the market as we know it, he is changing the way we interact with the world and our environment and he is taking a huge risk. His vision is not for his vehicles to be ridiculously over priced, but right now, with the number of units that he is pushing, it is the best that he can do. He took it upon himself to build charging stations and has a plan to have coverage over the whole of the USA. He has not planned to take over the world in a short period of time and he isn't even really trying to dominate and monopolise the market as most of us seem to think. I think that he is making a concerted age to push us into an era of savings both financially, and in terms of eco-friendliness.

Lets stop thinking about the here and now and let us begin to think about 15 years from now. With Elon Musk creating a real push for battery technology to improve on the heavy duty side and mobile device users pushing for better battery tech on the smaller scale, do you really think that this venture will remain as is? This man is a pioneer and an entrepreneur, he has taken huge risks and keeps taking these risks for the rest of mankind.

Do you need some additional bio-friendly tissues to clean up after all that?

 

[captaincranky]

I....[ ].....Personally, I am impressed by Elon Musk. Lets not look at the Profit vs Loss business model. Instead, let us look at this from an advancement of mankind standpoint. This man has realised that:
A) Fossil fuels are not becoming cheaper
B) Fossil fuels are running out
C) New technology is needed for the advancement of mankind.....[ ].....

You should realize this is a categorically patent statement of the obvious, in addition to something that has been drilled into my head for about the last 50+ years.

AFAIK, the major car makers are also working on electric vehicles. I seem to recall hybrid and all electric marques being released all the time. For example, the Chevy "Volt".

However, when this happens the "tech saavy" choir begins to harmonize on how they're holding back, they're in league with the oil companies, and so forth.

Along comes Mr. Musk, who offers something as ostentatious as this "Model S", (obviously a knock off of Mercedes Benz naming scheme), as his praises are sung to the hills.

However, the "Model S" should sell like gangbusters in someplace like Sierra Leone! Or at least they' be able to sell one or two to its president. The rest of the population will have to struggle along with a tawdry, polluting, Cadillac "Escalade" or two.

Given that the expected lifespan of an individual in Sierra Leone is only 50 years, they'll be able to pass those Caddies down for a generation or two. (At least if anybody bothers to change the oil).

So, many African countries have per capita incomes of less than $2000.00 US, and don't really have inhabitants which live very long, what Africa really needs is healthcare, and jobs. Many parts of it, can probably do without charging stations for a few decades.

 

[Stash]

You should realize this is a categorically patent statement of the obvious, in addition to something that has been drilled into my head for about the last 50+ years.

AFAIK, the major car makers are also working on electric vehicles. I seem to recall hybrid and all electric marques being released all the time. For example, the Chevy "Volt".

However, when this happens the "tech saavy" choir begins to harmonize on how they're holding back, they're in league with the oil companies, and so forth.

Along comes Mr. Musk, who offers something as ostentatious as this "Model S", (obviously a knock off of Mercedes Benz naming scheme), as his praises are sung to the hills.

However, the "Model S" should sell like gangbusters in someplace like Sierra Leone! Or at least they' be able to sell one or two to its president. The rest of the population will have to struggle along with a tawdry, polluting, Cadillac "Escalade" or two.

Given that the expected lifespan of an individual in Sierra Leone is only 50 years, they'll be able to pass those Caddies down for a generation or two. (At least if anybody bothers to change the oil).

So, many African countries have per capita incomes of less than $2000.00 US, and don't really have inhabitants which live very long, what Africa really needs is healthcare, and jobs. Many parts of it, can probably do without charging stations for a few decades.

One must note that I said that this would take years to happen, but happen it must. Irrelevant of what africa may need or not, just as any other country, it seems we end up receiving what capitalists deem a need or want. All I am saying is that whereas other companies are developing electrical vehicles, they have not put "most" of their eggs in that basket. I couldn't really care less which company did this, all I am saying is that once you have such a big company actively and aggressively pushing the barriers of our current technology, all that can happen is rapid advancement of said tech.

 

[Stash]

Do you need some additional bio-friendly tissues to clean up after all that?

Haha, it wasn't meant to be seen as sentimental, nor emotional. If you did, that was your own interpretation. All I am saying is that as human beings, a supposedly superior and more intelligent race, we need to start being far more aggressively active in preserving our only habitable planet and Elon Musk is definitely pushing in that directions and has taken huge risks in doing so.

 

[captaincranky]

One must note that I said that this would take years to happen, but happen it must. Irrelevant of what africa may need or not, just as any other country, it seems we end up receiving what capitalists deem a need or want. All I am saying is that whereas other companies are developing electrical vehicles, they have not put "most" of their eggs in that basket. I couldn't really care less which company did this, all I am saying is that once you have such a big company actively and aggressively pushing the barriers of our current technology, all that can happen is rapid advancement of said tech.

Let's recap here. Mr. Musk is a windbag and an egomaniac. He really couldn't start up a car company to compete with Ford, GM, Chrysler, or their foreign equivalents. Ergo, he is, as you put it, "putting all his eggs in one basket", because that electric "basket" will garner him the most publicity, public sympathy, and last but certainly not least, the most investors, along with maximum tax breaks.

Introducing a high end electric vehicle, which is out of reach for most buyers, is the same bullsh!t that the "big three automakers" do to garner attention. Chevrolet builds the Corvette so they can validate the rest of their product line with it. And remember, there's a bit of "Corvette blood and heritage", under the hood of even the lowliest Chevy sub-compact.

Mr. Musk's conferences always sound like he's hijacking ideas from a Jules Verne novel. His "flying car" press release tore it for me, and ever since, I've been deaf to his pseudo-scientific, evangelistic rantings.