The FDA wants to restrict the sale of flavored e-cigs and vapes

[captaincranky]

...because prohibition works so well? We all know how well it worked with alcohol and how well it has been working with marijuana. Especially with teenagers, they never drink or smoke pot. /sarcasm

How about if we take a tine out, or a reality check, whichever comes first? I agree with most of the pro vaping, as opposed to smoking arguments.But, I also can state from personal experience, Some biddy shoved the first cigarette in my mouth when I was 14. That was somewhere around 1962 or '63, and it was pretty much nonstop from there on out. So children undeniably market this nonsense to other children with various social acceptance strategies. In computer parlance I believe it's called, "social engineering", when the Nigerian prince gets you to click the link, then convinces you to cut him a check. It's easier with the rampant insecurities of pubescent humans. "It makes you look cool". or, "what are you, chicken". Either tactic is usually sufficient to seal the deal. The reason being, while humans very easily transfer technological knowledge from one generation to the next with words and pictures, moral knowledge, social interaction and self preservation skills. vis a vis "street smarts", have to be learned anew with every passing generation.

I have what some would consider bizarre viewpoints about what needs to be taught, and what should be selectively taken away from the "classroom". For example, I am an atheist who firmly believes that our children should attend Sunday school.. I think the principles of moral and just behavior, go down much easier if laced with the fairy tale of Jesus, (or whomever), and religious tenets, interlaced with the stark reality of the ten commandments. As an adult, you should have enough intellect to act kindly and justly for your own happiness, and not to avoid retribution from an unprovable entity.

Back to vaping . Bear in mind absolutely nothing can be achieved by ranting, b!tching, or filibustering in this. a tech forum.So, what's the point? One has to winder if you're trying to turn us into "true believers", or fabricating a reality which coincides with your addiction and agenda

As a whole, there's a lot of truth to the pro vaping side of the issue. But a lot of products are becoming available in the vaping product sphere are aimed directly at children. To suggest this isn't the case, is either a bold faced lie, a rationalization, or a delusion. Perhaps adults do like flavors, bur doubtless children like them more, and accordingly these products are more seductive to the young. Youngsters can live on juice boxes, and 50% refined sugar cereals. but as an adult, you probably get into meat and potatoes, (also a nightshade), before you hit the chocolate sundae. It's also a diversion away from your own weakness and dependence, to impress lawmakers.

Unless it is in the technological or mathematical realms, there are no such things as hard fast truths, only spin and propaganda

James quadruple nought 7 is a text book case of this. He's not addicted, yet he bought a refrigerator full of the strongest vaping fluid available, before it was outlawed in his country. To say that "nicotine is not addictive in and out of its own right", while exhibiting that type of behavior, is nothing, if not talking out of both sides of your a**.

Now he feels compelled to boor us to wits end, about how he feels US legislators should approach this issue, without even living in this country. Man, give it a f**king rest. I have a reasonably full grasp of the pros of vaping as opposed to smoking. Really, all you have to do is wash one ashtray to conceptualize what smoking might be doing to your lungs.

In all honesty, anyone who is that relentless, self righteous, and compelled to inflict his opinion on others, really could be combining other smokable stimulants in that vaping fluid.

 

[MaXtor]

Here's one of the first semi-longterm studies that tracked the health of never-smokers who started vaping over 3.5 years: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-14043-2

They measured health markers of the heart, lungs, and circulatory system and compared them to a control group of never-vapers/never-smokers. The results? The vaper's health markers matched that of the control group after 3.5 years.

While three and a half years is not incredibly long, it is long enough to measure the direction your health is taking. To see no measurable difference is very promising.


As for the FDA's teenager vaping epidemic scare tactics. While more teenagers are trying vaping, most are not becoming addicts and most importantly vaping is not a gateway to smoking:
“While research exists to support either side of the argument, we conclude, currently, that youth use of e-cigarettes is unlikely to increase the ranks of future cigarette smokers,”
“Is it possible we could have our cake and eat it too? Perhaps, especially if sensible comprehensive harm reduction policies can earn a place in modern tobacco control efforts.”
https://www.buffalo.edu/content/dam...dy PDFs/Kozlowski-Warner-DAD-2017-inpress.pdf


Do adults like flavour? Of course we do, here's a study of more than 20,000 adult vapers. Conclusion? Over 80 percent said they preferred vaping fruit/candy/dessert/pastry/bakery flavours over tobacco flavours.
https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-018-0238-6


Does vaping help smokers quit? A study using US Census data showed that vaping helps more smokers attempt to quit and that smokers who vape are more likely to succeed at quitting.
https://www.bmj.com/content/358/bmj.j3262


Here are three very credible papers looking at the current science on vaping and weighing the risks and benefits. The two British papers are incredibly optimistic, the one American isn't quite as optimistic but all conclude that vaping is magnitudes less dangerous than smoking.

National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine (2018)
http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/Reports/2018/public-health-consequences-of-e-cigarettes.aspx

Health England (2018)
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e-cigarettes-and-heated-tobacco-products-evidence-review

Royal College of Physicians (2016)
https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/projects/outputs/nicotine-without-smoke-tobacco-harm-reduction-0

 

[captaincranky]

Here's one of the first semi-longterm studies that tracked the health of never-smokers who started vaping over 3.5 years: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-14043-2

They measured health markers of the heart, lungs, and circulatory system and compared them to a control group of never-vapers/never-smokers. The results? The vaper's health markers matched that of the control group after 3.5 years.

While three and a half years is not incredibly long, it is long enough to measure the direction your health is taking. To see no measurable difference is very promising.


As for the FDA's teenager vaping epidemic scare tactics. While more teenagers are trying vaping, most are not becoming addicts and most importantly vaping is not a gateway to smoking:
“While research exists to support either side of the argument, we conclude, currently, that youth use of e-cigarettes is unlikely to increase the ranks of future cigarette smokers,”
“Is it possible we could have our cake and eat it too? Perhaps, especially if sensible comprehensive harm reduction policies can earn a place in modern tobacco control efforts.”
https://www.buffalo.edu/content/dam/www/news/documents/Study PDFs/Kozlowski-Warner-DAD-2017-inpress.pdf


Do adults like flavour? Of course we do, here's a study of more than 20,000 adult vapers. Conclusion? Over 80 percent said they preferred vaping fruit/candy/dessert/pastry/bakery flavours over tobacco flavours.
https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-018-0238-6


Does vaping help smokers quit? A study using US Census data showed that vaping helps more smokers attempt to quit and that smokers who vape are more likely to succeed at quitting.
https://www.bmj.com/content/358/bmj.j3262


Here are three very credible papers looking at the current science on vaping and weighing the risks and benefits. The two British papers are incredibly optimistic, the one American isn't quite as optimistic but all conclude that vaping is magnitudes less dangerous than smoking.

National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine (2018)
http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/Reports/2018/public-health-consequences-of-e-cigarettes.aspx

Health England (2018)
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e-cigarettes-and-heated-tobacco-products-evidence-review

Royal College of Physicians (2016)
https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/projects/outputs/nicotine-without-smoke-tobacco-harm-reduction-0

I keep telling you you're preaching to the choir, but with some slight bends to the truth which seem to suit your agenda. It is your intention to pummel me with studies until I wither under the onslaught? Because if so, I'll just stop discussing the topic rationally, and let you and James claim a hollow victory, endlessly sharing links and congratulating each other for a thread well trolled..

I have to sleep sometime tonight, now's as good a time as any

 

[MaXtor]

My agenda is to help smokers quit, and to improve vaping as vaping in and of itself has the potential to be only as dangerous as your morning cup of Joe.

There are definite concerns, however. Unfortunately, the real concerns aren't being looked at. Tobacco companies losing sales of cigarettes, pharmaceutical companies losing sales of gums, patches and other quit smoking aids, governments losing money due to things like the Master's Settlement Agreement, corrupt and naive politicians using your children as tools, and purists spewing non-sense have taken the spotlight (especially since mainstream media loves negative stories).

The main concern should simply be what exact ingredients found in vaping may or may not do to your health. The beauty with vaping is that we can remove any bad ingredients. Diacetyl is an ingredient that was used as a scare tactic, it was actually discovered by vapers as a potential harm years before Harvard's pharmaceutical influence pushed the popcorn lung scare study. What they failed to mention and what vapers had already discovered is that cigarettes contain as much as 750x the amount of diacetyl found in eliquid, and no smoker has ever been diagnosed with popcorn lung.

I'm much more concerned with ingredients like sucralose, which is found at high levels in most eliquids (to make them taste extra sweet and yummy). The problem with sucralose is that it actually burns while vaping, theoretically becoming carcinogenic.

Another concern of mine would actually be the longterm side effect of the daily sterilisation of your lungs. Propylene glycol is a main ingredient found in eliquid (though it could be replaced), which it's considered safe for inhalation and even pumped through hospital and restaurant ventilation systems to prevent the spreading of germs and bacteria. We don't know what the longterm effect may be to our immune system for example. One recent study showed that vapers were less susceptible to lung infections due to habitually inhaling propylene glycol. Does this mean our immune system is being suppressed from its normal job? Will this cause longterm vapers who quit vaping to have immune system issues?

There are definitely risks associated with vaping that should be being looked at and potentially eliminated, however we're tangled up with a lot of big players with serious agendas being pushed and most would rather eliminate vaping than improve upon this life saving technology.

 

[James00007]

@captaincranky talking about vaping on a vaping thread on a tech forum and telling everyone else talking about it "that is not worth talking about and that there is no point in doing so". Insane really.
@captaincranky If you want to talk about vaping on this vaping thread by all means do so but kindly shut up with the superiority complex and attempts to deny the right of reply and open conversation.

"One has to winder if you're trying to turn us into "true believers", or fabricating a reality which coincides with your addiction and agenda

Myself and others here have tried to show you the reality (backed up by multitudes of evidence) but you have denied it due to some lack of understanding of why people are passionate on this issue. Many of the concerns you have raised here were addressed in the previous thread weeks ago and further addressed in this one. You already refused to look into this further so as stated earlier you will remain ignorant on this issue.

As a whole, there's a lot of truth to the pro vaping side of the issue. But a lot of products are becoming available in the vaping product sphere are aimed directly at children. To suggest this isn't the case, is either a bold faced lie, a rationalization, or a delusion."

This is about marketing practice. The answer to bad marketing practice is to restrict and punish those that are deemed to have inappropriate marketing and punish or shutdown those selling to under age. This is what is done with every other adult product but somehow, some people have this manic idea that more should be done against a 95%+ safer alternative to smoking that flavors play a massive role in keeping people off the smokes, while being perfectly fine with flavored nicotine gum, flavored vodka, flavored craft beer and even flavored caffeine products being sold (hypocrites).

"Nicotine is not the major cause of any disease associated with smoking; it’s comparable to caffeine, which is highly addictive but safely consumed in coffee, tea and cola."
- Prof B Rodu

"E-cigarettes are probably about as safe as drinking coffee."
- Prof R West

Youth vaping has been called an epidemic by FDA and you clearly share these concerns for youth use, along with most people including vapers. It's important to first keep in mind that selling vaping product to under 18's is illegal. This is about enforcement of current law, FDA hasn't well enough enforced law and instead launched an all out assault against vaping.

FDA spreading fear by plastering posters in schools, adverts on TV, scaring the crap out of parents/schools, splashing it in newspapers, injecting the message into all media, creating a moral panic and hysteria which has resulted in more youth vaping than anything the vaping industry has done.

Vapers don't want youth to vape, the vaping industry don't want youth to vape and don't need them to (apart from a few bad actors which should be crushed).

Good Regulation/Practice:
1. Banning of bad marketing practice such as cartoons or ip theft. (already rules in place so comes down to enforcement) It's not rocket science, you tell a company to change labels by date "x" or be shut down.
2. Enforcement of underage sales rules.
3. Reasonable quality control requirements that don't put everyone out of business

Bad Regulation/Practice:
1. 21+ laws replacing 18+
2. Flavor bans
3. Effectiveness destroying nicotine strength limits
4. Screaming about epidemics and overreactions
5. Requiring manufacturers of products to halt youth experimentation or face decimation.(impossible when they aren't responsible for who the product is sold to) (it's like requiring Budweiser to halt youth drinking or be shut down).
6. Overbearing requirements of standards that will shut down thousands of business and destroy jobs (eg million dollar cost of testing for every variant of a product, which is known only Big Pharma and Big Tobacco can afford)
7. Lying to the public, presenting junk science and launching insanely expensive misinformation campaigns.
8. Gag orders on vape shops telling people how to use products (key if the rare events of "explosions" are your concern, these are mostly down to misuse). Blame is with FDA.
9. Classing vapor products as tobacco products
10. Ban's against health claims like saying vaping is safer
11. Requirements of labeling a product "contains nicotine" when the product contains no nicotine

FDA's Vaping 'Epidemic' Doesn't Hold Up to Inspection
"Prior to announcing his resignation last week, FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb had made ending teen vaping a central goal of his tenure. Determined to eliminate what he frequently termed an “epidemic,” regulators have not only exaggerated the magnitude of the problem, but also threatened retailers with regulatory repercussions. The source of the problem lies elsewhere."
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...emic_doesnt_hold_up_to_inspection_139751.html

The Anatomy of a Moral Panic
" Specific people (moral entrepreneurs, as they are called) >claim< that the reported event is actually only one instance of something much more widespread, & that there is actually an “epidemic” or “plague” of this kind of thing"

Sometimes, when the subject of the panic is real but exaggerated you have the problem of a sledgehammer being used to crack a nut, an excessive and overbearing response. When the panic concerns something that does not actually exist, you can have laws that severely restrict people’s freedom or impose serious costs on them for no good reason whatsoever.
https://www.aier.org/article/anatomy-moral-panic

The great American youth vaping epidemic. Really?
Let’s be clear, the rise in vaping is not an epidemic. Vaping is not a disease and not even a cause of any disease. Vaping is a behaviour with relatively minor health consequences, if any
https://www.clivebates.com/the-great-american-youth-vaping-epidemic-really/


11 Million Lies: The Tobacco Control Movement is Committing Public Health Malpractice by Misrepresenting the Health Effects of Vaping
Why is vaping so threatening to the tobacco control movement? Is it threatening because it is extremely dangerous -- basically as harmful as smoking -- and therefore is is harming the health of the nation's 11 million adult vapers?

No - it's precisely the opposite. It is threatening to us because it is not as harmful as smoking. We simply cannot tolerate the fact that there are millions of adults who are deriving pleasure from, and improving their health because of, the use of a much safer form of nicotine delivery. The problem with vaping is that it is not killing anyone, so there is no punishment for the vice of being addicted to nicotine. And that's something that the tobacco control movement can simply not tolerate.

I believe that it is precisely because the truth is so threatening that many anti-tobacco groups, public health agencies, physicians, and researchers have resorted to lying to the public about the health effects of vaping.
https://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/03/11-million-lies-tobacco-control.html

 

[captaincranky]

You already refused to look into this further so as stated earlier you will remain ignorant on this issue.

No, I actually have looked into it. I simply have no intention of mindlessly and obediently following every link which you feel entitled to demand I do..

As I said before, the percentage of your posts on the topic of vaping, TO A COMPUTER FORUM, was at 55% is is in the process of escalating.

You're a vaping (nicotine) addict, are are behaving with the typical profile of such an individual. You can't stop, refuse to stop, demand others kowtow to your concept of what legislation needs to be passed directly on top of your desk before it can be enacted. The fact that you're from another country, doesn't seem to deter you from dictating how the US should be run.

Most cases of hard core addiction come from self loathing. You should look into that.. Or perhaps explore the concept with a therapist

This is about marketing practice. The answer to bad marketing practice is to restrict and punish those that are deemed to have inappropriate marketing and punish or shutdown those selling to under age. This is what is done with every other adult product but somehow some people have this manic idea that more should be done against a 95%+ alternative to smoking that flavours play a massive role in keeping them off the smokes, while being perfectly find with flavoured vodka and craft beer being sold "HYPOCRITRES".

It would be a good thing for you know what you're talking about, before you start engaging your mouth in high gear..

It already is illegal to sell both tobacco and vaping products to those under 18, and there are law enforcement agencies dedicated to enforcing those existing statutes.

You choose to ignore the fact that marketing done by vaping manufacturers IS aimed at teen and preteens..

Them's your peeps, so why not spare us the duplicity of lying about it, and focus your disgust and frustration where it belongs, inwards toward your own industry

Why is vaping so threatening to the tobacco control movement? Is it threatening because it is extremely dangerous -- basically as harmful as smoking -- and therefore is is harming the health of the nation's 11 million adult vapers?

As an Ex smoker, it doesn't threaten me at all. I recognize that it's nothing more than another worthless attempt at separating me from my, "disposable income".

No - it's precisely the opposite. It is threatening to us because it is not as harmful as smoking. We simply cannot tolerate the fact that there are millions of adults who are deriving pleasure from, and improving their health because of, the use of a much safer form of nicotine delivery. The problem with vaping is that it is not killing anyone, so there is no punishment for the vice of being addicted to nicotine. And that's something that the tobacco control movement can simply not tolerate.

Perhaps we've learned our lesson from the fact the Russians abandoned Afghanistan, we took over, and now we have a huge issue with opiate abuse. Well, Afghanistan doesn't have any oil, and their only viable (read "profitable"), cash crop is Papavera somniferum.

I believe that it is precisely because the truth is so threatening that many anti-tobacco groups, public health agencies, physicians, and researchers have resorted to lying to the public about the health effects of vaping.

I already agree with all the points you're trying to make. Which leads me to the obvious conclusion that you like to hear yourself talk, and have a pathological need to force you viewpoint down every one you contact's throat, whether they need it or not, or whether they already agree with you.

Which leads me right back to the mindless asininity involved with you hijacking a computer forum, as a soapbox for your dread of having your vaping products taken away from you.
Why not spare us, and join a vaping activist' forum, which perhaps has more support, more clout, and more potential for moving this agenda forward.

I've already explained to you, I don't care how many people smoking kills. I don't care if they take your precious vapors off you.

That said, you're all yap, and no listen, the same as that annoying Pekingese nobody can stand

Stop deluding yourself into thinking you can change my mind. I have no illusions I can talk you into relenting, show me the same courtesy.

 

[James00007]

Go back and read it again. You missed out some large chunks of what was in the post and you are confusing parts I extracted from the web pages which you are unwilling to navigate to.

As I said before, the percentage of your posts on the topic of vaping, TO A COMPUTER FORUM, was at 55% is is in the process of escalating.

The fact that you're from another country, doesn't seem to deter you from dictating how the US should be run.

Because this is my area of interest, congratulations on figuring that out. If my percentage of posts on the topic of vaping was 100% it would still be a worthless argument for you to make, along with what country I live in having a basis of my knowledge on this subject. How much more will you continue with these pointless arguments that will remain irrelevant no matter how many times you repeat them.

You're a vaping (nicotine) addict, are are behaving with the typical profile of such an individual. You can't stop, refuse to stop, demand others kowtow to your concept of what legislation needs to be passed directly on top of your desk before it can be enacted.

Most cases of hard core addiction come from self loathing. You should look into that.. Or perhaps explore the concept with a therapist

Hypocrite

I guess I'll get a few @Captaincrankys and ad hominem remarks back from this post, ay @James00007 ?

as a soapbox for your dread of having your vaping products taken away from you.

Now make sense of your logic that I'm an addict trying to protect my access to something after I told you that I don't need access to it because as you keep pointing out I have the ability, knowledge and resources to make my own (which is massively cheaper just to throw further discredit to your doomsday theory of my reasoning).

I live in a country where the medical establishment is largely pro vaping as a means of tobacco harm reduction, but is still stifled by bad regulation and increasingly has "experts" spouting crap about popcorn lung that it got from your side of the pond after some plank brained politician decided to tell people that a member of the public instantly developed a terminal and incurable insanely rare disease and then became better.

It would be a good thing for you know what you're talking about, before you start engaging your mouth in high gear..

It's pretty clear that I know exactly what I am talking about. You should take your own advice.

It already is illegal to sell both tobacco and vaping products to those under 18, and there are law enforcement agencies dedicated to enforcing those existing statutes.

You have personal insight and experience of how the dedicated the FDA is in enforcing those existing statutes? I doubt that.

You choose to ignore the fact that marketing done by vaping manufacturers IS aimed at teen and preteens..

You choose to ignore the fact I said those parts of the industry should be eliminated without detriment to other parts of the industry. Most youth are using Juul that aren't marketed to youth by the way. I'm sure you can manage typing Juul packaging into your preferred search engine.

As an Ex smoker, it doesn't threaten me at all. I recognize that it's nothing more than another worthless attempt at separating me from my, "disposable income".

Congratulations on your "disposable income". Vapers are also thankful for more "disposable income" on account of it being cheaper than smoking, until it gets hit with "sin" tax which is happening in many states in reaction to the moral panic orchestrated by the FDA.

Perhaps we've learned our lesson from the fact the Russians abandoned Afghanistan, we took over, and now we have a huge issue with opiate abuse. Well, Afghanistan doesn't have any oil, and their only viable (read "profitable"), cash crop is Papavera somniferum.

Irrelevant

I already agree with all the points you're trying to make. Which leads me to the obvious conclusion that you like to hear yourself talk, and have a pathological need to force you viewpoint down every one you contact's throat, whether they need it or not, or whether they already agree with you.

You have told people here that any pro vaping view is some poisoned brain washed addicts way of thinking just to suit a narrative. You were just talking about your concern of youth vaping in your previous post. I responded discussing your concerns of youth vaping and then you come back saying I'm an insane addict for responding because you agree with everything I said and then you tell me that I'm the one that needs a therapist.

To clarify:

I believe that it is precisely because the truth is so threatening that many anti-tobacco groups, public health agencies, physicians, and researchers have resorted to lying to the public about the health effects of vaping.

They are lying about a youth epidemic, they are lying about the health risks to youth.

Which leads me right back to the mindless asininity involved with you hijacking a computer forum,

Which leads me back to this being an article about vaping.

Why not spare us, and join a vaping activist' forum, which perhaps has more support, more clout, and more potential for moving this agenda forward.

That said, you're all yap, and no listen, the same as that annoying Pekingese nobody can stand

@captaincranky If you want to talk about vaping on this vaping thread by all means do so but kindly shut up with the superiority complex and attempts to deny the right of reply and open conversation.

I've already explained to you, I don't care how many people smoking kills.

I care that's why I posted on a vaping thread. That's why I don't need a therapist and you do.

Stop deluding yourself into thinking you can change my mind. I have no illusions I can talk you into relenting, show me the same courtesy.

I will not relent in talking about vaping in a vaping thread, and responding to concerns or misinformation. If you wish to not relent on a subject you have admitted showing no interest in, and not caring about then carry on but it will end like last time, in you flipping your lid and abandoning the issue till the next article appears on the subject where you will talk about nicotine being a pesticide and it being a trash high.

 

[captaincranky]

Go back and read it again. You missed out some large chunks of what was in the post and you are confusing parts I extracted from the web pages which you are unwilling to navigate to.

No, I got all the parts which seemed relevant. The great captaincranky is trying to stifle my freedom of speech and so forth.
As for your endless stream of links, it isn't likely they contain anything I don't already have the necessary information on which to draw an informed opinion

I have no negative opinions about vaping, nor have I been "victimized" by the false prophets of the FDA, ATF, Surgeons general, or any other governmental agency, or private anti-vaping coalition

All your links are intended to do, is to reinforce your opinion. In short, I'm right, because so & so says so". It's a load or sh!t, and could be categorized as, "philosophical bullying", Or how about of we call it what it is, self reinforcing, unrelenting propaganda.

Given this venue, I haven't the slightest idea what you believe you're going to accomplish. Is this a recruitment drive for a vaping cult? Or is is that you're OCD and simply can't shut up, and have an unfortunate, uncontrollable compulsion to keep repeating the same manifesto ad infinitum. Your posts are like a never ending "public service announcement" that plays again and again in the town square. It's Orwellian.

As I said earlier, I'm certainly under no obligation to attend "@James00007 's "web school of vaping existential reality", ("I vape, therefore I am")..And as I also said earlier, I know as much as I need to know. I agree with most of you views and even some of your conspiracy theories.

Which leads me to the conclusion, that you're insane. After all, doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result, is by some accounts, the very definition of insanity.

Which again, why it is to me inexplicable, why you've chosen this venue to ram the wealth and largess of your research and heavily biased opinion down Techspot's collective throat.

In more practical terms, your informational methodology, is more than likely creating more enemies against your cause, than it is drawing them to it.

Mr. @MaXtor 's approach is centrist, and he is capable of carrying on a dialog on the topic allowing for the input of others. You simply aren't.

With you it's everybody's out to get me, .so and so is lying, the level of self righteousness and paranoia is overwhelming. Didn't anybody ever tell you, "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"?

That big tobacco is getting more involved with vaping product is a reality. That their ads and product design target a wider demographic than they are willing to admit, is one of those "truths which should be self evident". It's just the same approach they used with tobacco itself. "Joe Camel, "The Marlboro Man", and god knows who and what else were pumped into our minds at a frightening pace. Merch and contests were also part of the assault on our wallets and our lungs.

The vaping community better get its act together, and stop countering lies with lies. A "correlation", can be two positives. Yes, adults enjoy flavors, but yes, the vaping interests are also using them to market to children. It isn't one or the other, both statements are true, you need to stop lying about it to us, as well as to yourselves, and clean up your own house.

The regulations you keep touting as good, and are continually restating are already in place. There you go, beating that dead horse for the umpteenth time.

Finally, I've known for the better part of five decades that nicotine isn't the biggest health risk associated with smoking, it's the tar in the smoke. For you, this seems to be "today's top headline".

Then there's this:

April 1, 1970
Congress bans airing cigarette ads, April 1, 1970. On this day in 1970, President Richard Nixon signed the Public Health Cigarette Smoking Act, which banned cigarette ads from airing on television and radio.

That' right kiddies, this coming April Fool's Day, smoking ads will have been banned from TV and radio for 49 years. Now how many years was that before you were born?

So, nobody in their right might should be able to claim that they didn't have adequate and stern warnings that cigarettes were a terrible health risk before they started smoking. Which sort of takes the wind out of the pro vaping argument that it's, "safer than smoking".

If you were given a barrage of information on the extreme dangers of smoking for more than 50 years running (*), why the hell did you start smoking to begin with? Which has led to all this constant whimpering about, please don't take my vaping away.

(*) Keep in mind the dangers of smoking were well publicized long before the ads were forcibly pulled

 

[James00007]

I have no negative opinions about vaping, nor have I been "victimized" by the false prophets of the FDA, ATF, Surgeons general, or any other governmental agency, or private anti-vaping coalition

Apart from after saying that you go on to use their false arguments as causes for concern. Such as Big Tobacco are taking over and:

And I didn't say anything about ATF.

All your links are intended to do, is to reinforce your opinion. In short, I'm right, because so & so says so". It's a load or sh!t, and could be categorized as, "philosophical bullying", Or how about of we call it what it is, self reinforcing, unrelenting propaganda.

It's about providing evidence to backup your claims not "philosophical bullying" but sorry if it hurt your feelings. That's how things work with science. But FDA would like your stance, they like people that just believe what they say without needing any evidence to prove a statement such as "Nicotine exposure during adolescence can disrupt normal brain development" notice the word "can"? It's widely known they came to that conclusion after drowning mice in high doses of nicotine. Did they produce evidence to support the claim? No.

Which leads me to the conclusion, that you're insane. After all, doing the same thing over and over, is by some accounts, the very definition of insanity.

I shared research on vaping in a vaping thread such insanity!

Which again, why it is to me inexplicable, why you've chosen this venue to ram the wealth and largess of your research and heavily biased opinion down Techspot's collective throat.

In more practical terms, your informational methodology, is more than likely creating more enemies against your cause, than it is drawing them to it.

It's ok @captaincranky I know you are upset that I didn't come here a kiss the ring like you expect. Hope you will cope. But I fail to see how you can try take a moral high ground after insulting everyone that has shared a different view to yourself or disputed something you have mentioned.

Didn't anybody ever tell you, "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"?

Yea I heared that here:
https://twitter.com/Joe_McM/status/1106242290706714625
"Some times neither honey nor vinegar works, you just need a BIG mucking fly swatter!"
and
"They don’t get it that’s the problem, we have been too nice and too polite. It’s time we start screaming the truth because saying it didn’t work."

That big tobacco is getting more involved with vaping product is a reality.

So place restrictions that only they can afford to deal with and irradicate the rest of the industry? That's whats happening and you still aren't getting it that these are the lines of as you put it "false prophets of the FDA, Surgeons general, or any other governmental agency, or private anti-vaping coalition".

That their ads and product design target a wider demographic than they are willing to admit, is one of those "truths which should be self evident". It's just the same approach they used with tobacco itself. "Joe Camel, "The Marlboro Man", and god knows who and what else were pumped into our minds at a frightening pace. Merch and contests were also part of the wallet assault.

and you still aren't getting it that these are the lines of as you put it "false prophets of the FDA, Surgeons general, or any other governmental agency, or private anti-vaping coalition".

How about The “Winston Man”: A Transition from Cigarettes’ Model to Vaping Advocate (the man in the blue shirt in A Billion Lives).

Big Pharma is more of an enemy to vaping than Big Tobacco is but that doesn't make Big Tobacco vapings friend either. In the end though, they are a business, does it make sense that they would invest in vaping? Yes. Is it a bad thing that Tobacco companies are selling safer products? No. Do you have a problem with them selling Tobacco or do you have a problem with them as a company?

Now that is a valid debate/concern to be had and is something that divides the vaping community, some say vaping should be kept well away from Big Tobacco and some welcome the fact they are selling and promoting safer alternatives.

What would be a disaster is to destroy all other parts of the industry and have only Big Tobacco in control of it. Which is literally the only place the FDA, excessive regulations and all the other nay Sayers are heading.

The vaping community better get its act together, and stop countering lies with lies. A "correlation", can be two positives. Yes, adults enjoy flavors, but yes, the vaping interests are also using them to market to children. It isn't one or the other, both statements are true, you need to stop lying about it to us, as well as to yourselves, and clean up your own house.

Did you care about flavors when you started smoking at 14?

I know as much as I need to know. I agree with most of you views and even some of your conspiracy theories.

I really don't know what to make of this agreeing with my views then presenting the same material that the anti-vaping set spew forth the lies and misinformation to decimate the industry.

 

[captaincranky]

@James00007 Please put me on your ignore list. That way, we'll find out how many others here are willing to listen to your crap..

I already have the answer which is "nobody" They've all come and gone, alienated by you, your pro vaping hype, proselytizing, and the endless tedium of your infantile lectures. .

 

[captaincranky]

@James00007 Here, why don't you chat this douche up?

He blows so many clouds into his viewer's faces, you'll think you're in heaven

 

[James00007]

@captaincranky Now make sure to pick those toys up that you just threw out of your pram.

 

[James00007]

@James00007 Here, why don't you chat this douche up?

He blows so many clouds into his viewer's faces, you'll think you're in heaven

Is that the best you could do to rip on vaping, by showing one of the most pro vaping videos you could find and someone who knows what he is talking about, discussing how some people have sensitivity to PG which can be overcome with the right setup and support of a good vape shop (which FDA are putting out of business) and praising the innovations in vaping technology? Decent video, and none of those products he is using are made by a tobacco company or marketed to youth (see the label of e-liquid bottle at 11:35 mark). The flavors he said he is vaping are: Crunchberries and Skittles and that he lost 15lb from vaping due to the importance of flavors.

 

[captaincranky]

@captaincranky Now make sure to pick those toys up that you just threw out of your pram.

That's a pretty telling remark. So I'm riding in a "pram", huh? It sort of tells you're me from the UK, which is now working toward being the most oppressive pseudo-democracy on the planet. They give the "Bobbies" guns now, but you're now even allowed to have pepper spray, (or for that matter, make mixed tapes). And soon, they'll hopefully, take your vaping kit away from you. Which is fine by me, since I'm not beholding to either habit, vaped nicotine or tobacco's nicotine.

I thought you'd enjoy that video. Educate me. Is that what all the really cool kidz do at parties, sit around and blow vapor clouds in each others faces? Maybe you should try and work "boofing" into the game.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=boofing

As you can see by the following snippets of posts from people than yourself, you're standing on your little soapbox, preaching to no one but me. I won't toss a few pence into your tin cup, and it's pissing you off.

"Caffeine can cause a short, but dramatic increase in your blood pressure, even if you don't have high blood pressure."
This is even seen as healthy (similar to sport), whereas this: http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0066-782X2006001700016&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
Twenty-four hour blood pressure record for smokers and nonsmokers
...
CONCLUSION: Mean daytime systolic and diastolic blood pressure readings were consistently higher in the smokers when compared to nonsmokers regardless of antihypertension medication use.
...
can get you killed (as shown by numerous statistics).

If it only targets nicotine, then who cares. Just continue selling the non-nicotine version...

...Not that the kids that want nicotine added won't just find another way lol

"Caffeine can cause a short, but dramatic increase in your blood pressure, even if you don't have high blood pressure."
This is even seen as healthy (similar to sport), whereas this: http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0066-782X2006001700016&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
Twenty-four hour blood pressure record for smokers and nonsmokers
...
CONCLUSION: Mean daytime systolic and diastolic blood pressure readings were consistently higher in the smokers when compared to nonsmokers regardless of antihypertension medication use.
...
can get you killed (as shown by numerous statistics).

I hope you're not suggesting that we as a society learn from the evidence of our past, that's just crazy talk.

The amount of trolling here is astounding.
No, we don't have thousands of caffeine deaths each year. People who die from tobacco don't necessarily all die from cancer. Many die, because of the elevated blood pressure due to the nicotine consumption.
But go on, spread your feces...

This is an e-cigarette selling forum. What a mob.

So, rant on. It's quite entertaining, listening to someone with as narrow a one track mind such as you possess. I still think you should have that OCD of yours looked into, but what do I know. At some point though, (actually right about now), the reward versus cost (time expended), is so imbalanced toward the amount time wasted it's bordering on Shakespearian tragedy. Once in a while, a person has to put aside the fact he paid for the ducat, and walk out on the movie.

Do enjoy your time alone, being right about everything..

 

[mailpup]

James 00007 and captaincranky, I think your personal argument has gone on long enough. If wish to continue it, do so via PM. James 00007, you have repeated your points enough.

 

[lostinlodos]

Issues:
Is this worthy of a tech article?

Ohkay. This is the FDA once again doing a knee-jerk reaction to small but vocal activist groups. I had a chance to quote cleanly and completely in the late 90s and on. On tobacco free additive free herbals. Mostly made of things you’d fine in a good quality salad like celery and clove and spinach and alfalfa.
Nope. FDA bans them because the nasty tasting things were “marketed to kids”.
Again an attempt some years later on clove heavy low tobacco content cigarettes like A Mild. Nope. Banned!
Now that I once again consider willingly quitting, and start moving to ecigs; nope... here’s another ban.
Maybe they should consider history.
The industry did a good job at self regulating with the standards of bold, full, lite, and ultralite . Banning the terms saw an increase in tar, nicotine, etc in the replacement terms. Way to go federal dunce authority.
If they cared about the people they’d ban the 900-1300 additives in tobacco cigarettes.
This just proves further they want headlines from interest groups to say “we still matter” when they increasingly prove day after day they are no longer of much benefit. How many Rx drugs have been recalled due to side effects this year, including death, just 3 months in? I count 16 so far. So let’s keep on throwing attention on tobacco to keep eyes off all the Luther failures!

 

[captaincranky]

Issues:
Is this worthy of a tech article?

Ohkay. This is the FDA once again doing a knee-jerk reaction to small but vocal activist groups. I had a chance to quote cleanly and completely in the late 90s and on. On tobacco free additive free herbals. Mostly made of things you’d fine in a good quality salad like celery and clove and spinach and alfalfa.
Nope. FDA bans them because the nasty tasting things were “marketed to kids”.
Again an attempt some years later on clove heavy low tobacco content cigarettes like A Mild. Nope. Banned!
Now that I once again consider willingly quitting, and start moving to ecigs; nope... here’s another ban.
Maybe they should consider history.
The industry did a good job at self regulating with the standards of bold, full, lite, and ultralite . Banning the terms saw an increase in tar, nicotine, etc in the replacement terms. Way to go federal dunce authority.
If they cared about the people they’d ban the 900-1300 additives in tobacco cigarettes.
This just proves further they want headlines from interest groups to say “we still matter” when they increasingly prove day after day they are no longer of much benefit. How many Rx drugs have been recalled due to side effects this year, including death, just 3 months in? I count 16 so far. So let’s keep on throwing attention on tobacco to keep eyes off all the Luther failures!

You could have tried throwing your cigarettes away, washed and put away your ashtrays, then just rode the storm out.

The FDA hasn't outright banned cigarettes, but there are now so many places it's illegal to smoke them, it's practically a de facto ban.

Cigarette advertising has been banned since 1970. So what is your excuse for starting, and why is the FDA obligated to bail you out?

They have been called "coffin nails" for more than a hundred years. Was that too ambiguous a warning for you to grasp?

Self regulating, hardly:

Many smokers chose so-called low-tar, mild, light, or ultralight cigarettes because they thought these cigarettes would expose them to less tar and would be lessharmful to their health than regular or full-flavor cigarettes. However, light cigarettes are no safer than regular cigarettes.Oct 28, 2010

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/tobacco/light-cigarettes-fact-sheet

 

[lostinlodos]

Your own link reaffirms my statement on content
Industry Terms on Packages Machine-measured Tar Yield (in milligrams)
Ultralight or Ultralow tar Usually 7 or less
Light or Low tar Usually 8–14
Full flavor or Regular Usually 15 or more

The fact was camel lite/light had 7mg tar prior to the ban. Silver contained 9 mg after the ban.

I never said they were obligated to bail me out.
And you ignored the rest of the statement, including the thought that this is a farce PR move. One that is not all that much of a minority view by both smokers and non.
I simply pointed to, implied, there are real issues to deal with that they were originally set up to deal with that are being ignored. Instead they make tons of noise in discussing banning grown adults from partaking in actions they chose freely to do so, all for the kids. “Think of the children” is used by any repressive group to ban something they don’t like.
This is about keeping attention where they have a cult-like following, the anti-tobacco movement, and off of things they were set up for, food safety, Rx safety, etc; things they fail at regularly as of late.

CC, you and I tend to agree more than we disagree, but ultimately this for me is about the freedom of an adult to make decisions without interference from a failing regulatory agency who throws for the children at everything they can. As most government and special interest groups do. Again, if they cared at all from an actual health standpoint they ban all those other additives, not relatively benign flavourings.

 

[captaincranky]

@lostinlodos Well, banning cigarettes altogether would require a constitutional; amendment. Good luck with that, especially after the abysmal failure of prohibition. (and its subsequent repeal). And as an adult, people are, (ostensibly), responsible for their own actions. Whining about a tobacco company's propaganda, is tantamount to admitting you have no willpower or sales resistance.

OTA TV bombards me with car ads and Xfinity enticements serially throughout prime time. I can't afford a new car, and I wouldn't touch Comcast anything with your ten foot pole

Still, a 14 year old redhead got me hooked., back when cigarettes were 34 cents a pack, with no age restrictions.

I suppose I could refuse to take to take responsibility for my actions, make excuses why I can't quit, or whimper about a possible threat to a surrogate being taken away.

I chose to take, (what I consider to be the high road), and not let nicotine rule my behavior, by quitting altogether.

If and when a person gives up cigarettes, vaping and its paraphernalia, just seems to be a lure, combined with a foolish expense. Although, hookah dens do possess a certain, rather course, third world charm. Even at that, getting together with your buds blowing vapor clouds in one another's faces does pale by comparison.

Head shop equipment is banned from sale now, it could easily be expanded to include vaping supplies.

Besides, so many states are now legalizing marijuana. Why not save your pennies and spend them on a drug that actually does something?