After $30 billion in school tech, the laptop classroom experiment may have backfired

[ScottSoapbox]

How have schools in other countries that also have laptops done education-wise? without a proper comparison this is meaningless. Correlation does not equal causation.

He has 50+ peer reviewed studies so I think he's aware that correlation does not equal causation. https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=iOqYqV4AAAAJ

This is an article based on an article based on his testimony to congress. Blame journalism not the research for the lack of details.

There's even a direct quote that this is not anti-tech. It's about using tech better:
"This is not a debate about rejecting technology," Horvath wrote in his testimony. "It is a question of aligning educational tools with how human learning actually works. Evidence indicates that indiscriminate digital expansion has weakened learning environments rather than strengthened them."

 

[jd666]

I concur. I suspect that technology and the Internet has turned teachers into lazy baby sitters who can't think for themselves, are no longer creative in their teaching approach and no longer inspire students. Training of the brain through memorization exercises such as multiplication tables and the names of state capitals is dead. It's too easy too do an Ai search for the answer. But, the kids are well-schooled in how to have safe sex!

I doubt that. Having lived nextdoor to a teacher (our kids played together) there's a lot more effort that goes into schooling that presumed. Ditto for the current teacher in the class. While they have to navigate a political minefield of dos/dont's and what is acceptable, what not, they're doing the best they can given their low pay and lack of resources.

Oh but the fun of a fundraiser coz the school needs equipment while the PD gets a shiny new building and new cars every year.

 

[dmatheson]

So they were given the tools, didn't complete their work, and this is the fault of the computer? Not the teachers? Not the course designers? Not the undisciplined habits and behavior patterns of said students? It's the presence of the plastics and electronics rotting their brains? May I cite my entire life as evidence to the contrary? Not helpful?

It's a sustained attention issue, and when we, or at least I, were using computers in school, their slowness and clunky apps sometimes required a longer attention span to use than the alternative. It's the "improvement" in the technology and how every crack of seconds has been filled with overstimulating content. Again, it's the "attention span" that is the problem. And as you and I know, it took a lot of attention to become an expert user, and there were a lot more seconds that had to be sat through waiting to get to the content you were seeking. That's sustained attention, and it's what allows you to build large mental models need to solve very complex problems. Think of the poor ADHD and ADD kids who already have a deficit in this area; they never have a chance to build up their tolerance for "waiting to get there." What's sad is that it will probably take another 25 years for schools to respond to this research, so generations of kids will just get squirted down this defective educational pipeline.

 

[Beerfloat]

I doubt that. Having lived nextdoor to a teacher (our kids played together) there's a lot more effort that goes into schooling that presumed. Ditto for the current teacher in the class. While they have to navigate a political minefield of dos/dont's and what is acceptable, what not, they're doing the best they can given their low pay and lack of resources.

Oh but the fun of a fundraiser coz the school needs equipment while the PD gets a shiny new building and new cars every year.

Agreed. Teachers get a bum rap (just look at the typical university of life opinions around here) and often do not even fairly compensated given how important their work is. Like police officers, nurses, the civil service etc etc, the vast majority are trying hard to do their jobs well under challenging circumstances. They're having to babysit kids who have never been taught any respect, and as icing on the cake deal with parents who are exactly the same.

 

[SRB]

It's not the laptop. It's the teachers and school boards and curriculum

Nothing could be further from the truth. The only thing you got right is that the Laptop is not 100% at fault, but it has little to do with the system either, unless you want to discuss the lack of discipline and standards that have become the norm in education. The sad fact is that students DO have the attention span measured in seconds, the parents often use the phones/screens as babysitters or pacifiers, and somehow, curiosity about how things work, critical thinking, and as one teacher put it, the ability to think period has become the norm.

Like all things, this does not apply to every student, but more students than not fall into these traps. The study was off about one thing, the students don't even spend one third of their time on classwork when they have a laptop. It's far less. The concept of mechanical aptitude is foreign to high school students, since they're exposure to the physical world has diminished greatly, and the idea that all of their stored knowledge come from Tik-Tok is not a meme, it's a reality.

The reason most of us don't see it is because the computer and knowledge and entertainment all came AFTER we had already had most of our experiences and habits formed. We use the computer as another source of information and life experience, not our ONLY one.

Again, this is as much the fault of parents, and how we treat education in general as it is the laptops and schools. We all did this, and we have to recognize when and where we can correct this.

 

[antiproduct]

Since correlation doesn't always mean causation, it'll be interesting to see what other things may have played a role in this decline. Cell phones maybe (so school phone bans would be interesting)? Social media?
Also, it really depends on if teachers actually monitor what kids do on their laptops when they use them "every day," because (as someone who works in a school), I've seen plenty of kids just waste time on youtube or snake the whole class period. So... no oversight on the kids would really not help.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Is there a correlation with other factors? For example, migration.

Probably a lack of immigrants. After all, immigrants statistically are more focused on education (particularly Asian immigrants - Indian, Chinese, etc) so the parents have a strong focus on the learning/grades of their children.


Not sure if that's what you were aiming for, but that's the reality (and the stereotype).

 

[RudyBob]

either, unless you want to discuss the lack of discipline and standards that have become the norm in education.

The only thing you got right.

And that is on the teachers and their bosses. 98% Gutless.

 

[SRB]

The only thing you got right.

And that is on the teachers and their bosses. 98% Gutless.

Don't lay this on the teachers, they have NOTHING to say about such things. One of the things I discovered is that teaching is much like any government organization, no one solicits opinions from the employees on the decisions the bosses make. I might also add that the modern parents very much have a bad case of "not my child" when it comes to behavior issues.

 

[SRB]

Since correlation doesn't always mean causation, it'll be interesting to see what other things may have played a role in this decline. Cell phones maybe (so school phone bans would be interesting)? Social media?
Also, it really depends on if teachers actually monitor what kids do on their laptops when they use them "every day," because (as someone who works in a school), I've seen plenty of kids just waste time on youtube or snake the whole class period. So... no oversight on the kids would really not help.

Since correlation doesn't always mean causation, it'll be interesting to see what other things may have played a role in this decline. Cell phones maybe (so school phone bans would be interesting)? Social media?
Also, it really depends on if teachers actually monitor what kids do on their laptops when they use them "every day," because (as someone who works in a school), I've seen plenty of kids just waste time on youtube or snake the whole class period. So... no oversight on the kids would really not help.

This is where things begin to get into the question of " how much do you lockdown these devices?" There really isn't a good way to see what 20-30 kids are doing on their screens. Software for this might be a solution, but again, whar are they can can they be used?

 

[Liranan]

Considering research has proven that 'AI' leads to a decrease in IQ the solution is teachers spending 100% of their time figuring out what a woman is instead of 60-80%.

No child left behind and social passing have created a generation of people who come directly out of the documentary Idiocracy.

 

[Squid Surprise]

Considering research has proven that 'AI' leads to a decrease in IQ the solution is teachers spending 100% of their time figuring out what a woman is instead of 60-80%.

Can you show us this research? I would like to dispute these findings…

If you're going to say outright lies, you need to expect that someone might call you out...

 

[ragreeen2646]

My wife was a 5th grade teacher who retired in 2000. She was complaining about the inability of kids to focus and concentrate back then. It all comes down to the family and how much they value learning and education.

 

[antiproduct]

This is where things begin to get into the question of " how much do you lockdown these devices?" There really isn't a good way to see what 20-30 kids are doing on their screens. Software for this might be a solution, but again, whar are they can can they be used?

Locking down devices is only one part. Kids always figure ways around restrictions and then word of what to do spreads quickly. As for monitoring 20-30 kids, that's actually pretty easy. There's lots of programs that can show the screens of every device that's on and in a classroom. The difficult part comes when a teacher walks away from their desk, then they can't monitor as well.

 

[Tantor]

Probably a lack of immigrants. After all, immigrants statistically are more focused on education (particularly Asian immigrants - Indian, Chinese, etc) so the parents have a strong focus on the learning/grades of their children.


Not sure if that's what you were aiming for, but that's the reality (and the stereotype).

Absolute nonsense. Immigrants are not inherently "more focused on education." Look at Europe's problem with violent 3rd world immigrants. They don't integrate. The great majority of sex crimes in Europe are committed by such immigrants. London is presently over 50% non-White, and they have huge problems with knife and gang violence that simply did not exist before mass immigration started, I.e. the 1980s and before. Why would we want such people in our countries?

Asian immigrants are almost always LEGAL immigrants. Unlike illegal migrants, they do not simply walk across the border. They pay their way over. They are the cream of the crop from Asia. But even with Asians, we end up losing our national ethnic identity if there are too many.

 

[Tantor]

The problem with laptops is that they introduce a layer of abstraction that separates children from direct interaction with the environment. Laptops are a good example of Edward Tenner's technology revenge thesis. See his book 'Why Things Bite Back, Technology and the Revenge of Unintended Consequences'. I predict that AI will have HUGE unintended consequences.

Schools are gradually becoming more abstract and less interactive. Modern kids don't learn penmanship, a skill that emphasizes manual dexterity. Schools have gradually moved away from woodshop, trade, and home-making skills. I have been told that music instruction is being phased out in many schools.

 

[jd666]

Probably a lack of immigrants. After all, immigrants statistically are more focused on education (particularly Asian immigrants - Indian, Chinese, etc) so the parents have a strong focus on the learning/grades of their children.


Not sure if that's what you were aiming for, but that's the reality (and the stereotype).

LOL. Made me chuckle. But yes, schools with asian influence do have kids that are pushed to exceed expectations.

 

[jeffbert]

Interesting thoughts; to which I add my own:
If the laptop is such that the kid can choose which app to run, it seems to me, a bad thing. If the teacher is not teaching, then perhaps he ought to be monitoring the students' activity. For that matter, do we even need teachers, if most of what they do is monitor students' activities?

Maybe use the computers as other than the primary teaching tools. Writing essays makes us think about the subject. Might be helpful in the learning process.

Maybe some incentive to do well might be offered. I was placed in a very small room with 1 adult, to trick me into reading. One Cowboy Bob or whatever book finished, & I was given my choice of [what was then] 10 cent candy. MMMM, Yummy!

And finally, the thing that is apparently no longer even whispered: bring back the paddle! When I was a kid, threatening me with the vice Principal and a paddle gave me a sense of DREAD!

 

[Liranan]

The resea

Can you show us this research? I would like to dispute these findings…

If you're going to say outright lies, you need to expect that someone might call you out...

The research by MIT was posted on this very website a few weeks ago.

 

[MiqWalsh]

The reason most of us don't see it is because the computer and knowledge and entertainment all came AFTER we had already had most of our experiences and habits formed. We use the computer as another source of information and life experience, not our ONLY one.

^^^ +1.

Agreed. For my age group - around retirement age - we went through education at least a decade and a half before computers as we know them even began to be generally available......and when they were, the early ones cost an arm & a leg (so not widely available to most).

We learnt with books, used pencil and paper, worked out solutions in our heads and THEN wrote everything down to confirm we actually understood what we were doing.

As for those who knock 'rote memorization', I'll tell you this much. I am so glad we had to learn all our 'times tables', etc. I can still do mental arithmetic in my head without even thinking about it OR reaching for a calculator...

(We had one kid in my 5th-year class - UK year/grading is a bit different to the US system; this was the year, at age 15 or 16, when we did our first major set of important exams.....'O' levels - whose parents bought him one of the early calculators. No word of a lie, within 6 months he was losing the ability to perform basic mental arithmetic.....and this was happening 50 years ago, so it's by no means a 'new' phenomenon).

Like others here, I use modern digital infrastructure as a way to supplement my knowledge; my 'thought patterns' were solidified long before all this junk/crap became the norm AND the only way to learn anything AT ALL.

Miq.

 

[Squid Surprise]

The resea

The research by MIT was posted on this very website a few weeks ago.

It didn’t say anything about lowering IQ… try again…

 

[XP437]

It's not the laptop. It's the teachers and school boards and curriculum

I totally agree, I recently graduated and while I was in school I had a teacher who didn't use any tech in her class and I learnt nothing but on the other hand I had a different teacher for the same subject later in the year and I learnt so much and he used tech everywhere. So no it is not the tech.

 

[Liranan]

It didn’t say anything about lowering IQ… try again…

MIT brain scans suggest that using GenAI tools reduces cognitive activity

The newly published paper explains that as participants in an experiment wrote a series of essays, electronic brain monitoring revealed substantially weaker connections between regions of the...

www.techspot.com

You're welcome.

 

[Squid Surprise]

MIT brain scans suggest that using GenAI tools reduces cognitive activity

The newly published paper explains that as participants in an experiment wrote a series of essays, electronic brain monitoring revealed substantially weaker connections between regions of the...

www.techspot.com

You're welcome.

Again - nothing about IQ… read your own evidence next time…

 

[GrayDragon]

I guess that explains why the 20-something person hired to replace me after I retire is struggling with basic concepts on the shop floor. The company wanted someone who didn't know anything so they could train them their way, but it's really a huge flop. School is supposed to teach you how to learn effectively, but I think young people now are incompetent at even that basic task.