AMD Radeon R9 290X Review: Challenging the Titan at half the price

[VitalyT]

Its like going to buy an SUV and going well this one gets 2 miles more to the gallon but the other one has 20 more horsepower, sure its going to be slightly more fuel efficient, but your still buying an SUV, and more horsepower might benefit you in the long run versus the slightly improved fuel efficiency.

SUV gets you anywhere off-road, as a big plus. And what does a video card do beside rendering graphics? I don't see it being an example.

Also, people are buying SUV-s not on the basis of their horsepower. At least not where I live where people buy them because: a) more space inside b) good off-road c) no sickness for people in the back d) Safer (better grip on icy roads).

 

[GhostRyder]

SUV gets you anywhere off-road, as a big plus. And what does a video card do beside rendering graphics? I don't see it being an example.

The Example was for efficiency, not comparing what each does... If your going for the top tier GPU, your going to want the most power and the best performance in games, that's why your spending the money. When your buying an SUV, my point was you already knew what you were getting into because its an SUV, its not going to be as efficient as a car. Sure some people are going to want an SUV that gets better mileage, but for the others they want the power.

 

[VitalyT]

The Example was for efficiency.

Speaking of efficiency, I don't think anyone in his right mind will try to stack up these cards into a 3 or 4-way SLI. We saw many of these with 780 and with Titans, because it is possible, because they look great and fairly quiet. Power consumption alone in this new AMD card will keep people from trying to use it in SLI for sure, plus they are ugly, and 4 of these will probably keep your neighbours up.

I'm sure AMD guys are now under orders to spin out the dual-GPU version of this thing, but the case just keeps melting... Red-color case is very appropriate for a product that may catch fire any moment

 

[cliffordcooley]

Blowers are cheap and easy for anyone to run, that's the key thing. When you release cards that have changed up coolers even if they are better, you get those people who find some way to break them or cant run them in CFX/SLI properly. A blower is loud and not the most efficient for cooling, but its also the safest bet. I always buy reference top of the line cards (Minus the PNY LC 580's I had, with more of these would get released) and slap water blocks on them. It saves me money from buying an aftermarket cooler one and having to waste such a nice cooler.

Well that answers part of my question about who would buy. Which I wasn't considering water-coolers, because that is irrelevant when discussing the effects of air-cooler design differences. But then I've not really noticed a big difference in prices which you give for a reason to purchase, reference design over non-reference designs. The only price difference I've really noticed is standard vs over-clock editions, which would also be irrelevant to this discussion. And to the SLI/CFX problem about running non-reference design properly, I wasn't aware of such issues. For the life of me I can't picture what these issues might be. Why would a manufacturer sell a non-reference card advertised for SLI/CFX, knowing there would be issues with the cooler design?

Power consumption alone in this new AMD card will keep people from trying to use it in SLI for sure

We all know you meant crossfire.

 

[VitalyT]

We all know you meant crossfire.

Good one, even more appropriate, it's all about heat and fire with AMD these days, it seems In the meantime, nVidia went for white-metallic theme, kind of on the icy side of the business, cooler, one might say

 

[dividebyzero]

WoT CO-OP anyone? lol , 2 big rooms jammed into 1 smaller room

Nice (except for your cable management) couple of iconic chassis - 800D and Stacker 830 Nvidia Ed. You running the Corsair case without a side panel?
A few observations from the conversation above:

AMD like Nvidia pretty much need to go with a design that vents most (if not all) the produced heat out of the chassis and is two slots deep to meet OEM requirements who will be by far the largest purchasers of these boards. having said that, AMD have cheated on the blower shroud to allow some exhaust to vented into the chassis -mostly due to the fact that the dual DVI-out block obstructs full rear venting (see the thermograph hot spot point in post #20)

To my mind, AMD with their choice of this particular reference cooler have engineered a fault into an otherwise faultless product. Whether you view 95C as sustainable long term or not, the temp is causing the GPU to throttle down to 727MHz under heavy load*, which is taking performance off the table. Part of this is due to the laws of physics (transistor density), partly to wring out the most from the GPU since AMD would know that with the holiday season approaching Nvidia would reply with another model (likely a 780Ti a.k.a. Titan with a 13% overclocked base clock, and probably featuring the two missing power phases from the original Titan). The fact that the 290X has left the door open for Nvidia to raise clocks and power draw with the resulting heat/noise/power still likely favouring the Nvidia card looks like a management oversight.
As it likely stands, the lineups look increasingly congested ( 290X, 290, 780, 780Ti). Market segmentation to the nth degree.

*Powertune behaves like this and in this order. The first point is mandatory.
1. Do not supply the GPU with more than 208 watts input

2. try to hit 1 GHz, but
3. do not go over 95 °C and
4. do not go over 40/55 percent PWM impulse

5. if acoustic and thermal limits are hit, reduce clock/voltage until you hit 727 MHz
6. if acoustic and thermal limits are still hit, ignore max PWM impulse
7. if nothing helps, shut down when reaching 100 °C for more than 1 sec. [courtesy of PCGH]

 

[GhostRyder]

cliffordcooley Non-Reference coolers do run one risk in some cases because many if not most run a blowing air directly onto the PCB style with the air escaping where ever it feels. These run cooler and better generally and pose less problems. However when running in high card setups (Meaning 3-4 way) the air getting pushed out the sides always has the slight chance of entering the next card up (And so on and so fourth). Now the difference is most of the time these coolers still run better because they are much more powerful coolers, but you also have to look at the point that sometimes the companies take a hit on the cost of the card by making a better cooler at a cheap price. It helps get their brand in more computers when you offer a better cooler for the same price, that's why you see a lot of times coolers from brands like gigabyte, powercolor, or sapphire making coolers that are better, but are priced right around the reference price. Its just a marketing war to get as many of their cards out there (now of course I am not saying they are losing money, just not making as much, like a minute amount difference of course) because in the end that helps their business.

VitalyT You seem to be confused and missing the point, the card is designed to handle these higher temps, that is why the threshold is so high. GPU's in general can handle higher temps in most cases than we allow them to go to. Its been mentioned many times that Fermi from Nvidia ran warmer than normal, however that was not a problem because they were designed to handle it. These cards on UBER mode as its called, only hit normally up to 65% fan speed, now you put up to 4 in the in CFX, they will be fine because they have plenty of room for the fans to go. It may sound like jet turbine running, but its way more than possible. Saying that this card cant do that is untrue.

Also at the ugly comment, that's your opinion, while by no means its the best looking cooler out there, its a Hot cooler (yes pun intended), the red LED's and such are nice and its meant to look more dark compared to its Nvidia counterparts which have a more light feel to it. The Nvidia Titan and 780 cooler is superior of course, but I wouldn't go off and say that the AMD cooler is horrible.

 

[dividebyzero]

The Nvidia Titan and 780 cooler is superior of course, but I wouldn't go off and say that the AMD cooler is horrible.

I would. The aesthetic is a minor consideration, and as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the design is cheap, dull, cheap, and a very large step backward from not only Nvidia's reference cooling, but AMD's own.

R9-290X - Shoddy aluminium fin + heatpipe. Fine design for a CPU cooler dissipating 150 watts or a mainstream card. Not so much for 300 watts.

HD 6970 / 6950 (also HD 7970/7950, GTX 670/680, Titan/GTX 780 et al)...

... Vapor chamber. Effective and not overly expensive to produce. Most up to date figures I have put a vapour chamber at $US10 more to produce than a cooling fin array ( $24 vs $14).

With a vapour chamber cooler, the R9-290X would have gained near perfect review scores and little in the way of negative attributes. For the cost saving of $10 per unit (and AMD could have priced the 290X at $569 quite easily), AMD sacrificed more favourable review conclusions (and PR), gave the Santa Clara Green Machine an advantage where it should have had none, and likely increased the numbers of people who will wait for non-reference versions to show up at the end of the year - where they will almost certainly be doing battle with non-reference 780 Ti's.

Standard AMD. Good hardware - flawed execution. For the want of $10 AMD open themselves up for stuff like this

 

[VitalyT]

dividebyzero

- that was awesome! I loved the video, best punch-line ever!

 

[cliffordcooley]

dividebyzero

- that was awesome! I loved the video, best punch-line ever!

I think I'm gonna watch it again, each time I come to this thread for catching up on comments. LOL

 

[VitalyT]

I watched it 5 times, every time expecting the operator gets sucked in in the end...

 

[Boilerhog146]

Used to watch the areoengine techs strap a jet down,and test jet engines like that ,the windows in the weather office would rattle..Tears running down my cheaks ,haven't laugh so hard in a while.

yeah, open case ,the 2 asus DCUII 670's dump lots of heat in the case I'm thinking of putting a 200 mm fan in the window ,couple more up top to get some air flow going, the case vents ok .got to add fans,,,the memory's temp led's on the airflow pro kits,turn red when case is closed ,gaming,, they stay green when case is open..hyper pi gets the led's flickering,12 threads at 100%

 

[Burty117]

Still outplays the titan and 780 so yea, even so, that difference on electricity is not going to be much and most people paying for this high end of a card know what's coming anyways. Its like going to buy an SUV and going well this one gets 2 miles more to the gallon but the other one has 20 more horsepower, sure its going to be slightly more fuel efficient, but your still buying an SUV, and more horsepower might benefit you in the long run versus the slightly improved fuel efficiency.

But that's not true? Everything I've read (All based on stock coolers from both sides) the 780 and Titan clocked as high as they can go will easily beat the R9 290x clocked as high as it can go and use less power and produces less heat AND makes a lot less noise? Efficiency is definitely not AMD's strong point here however to give credit were credit is due, it is their most Efficient GPU to date I suppose?

Also, You know we're going to have this battle, my 780 vs your R9 290x? Well you better hurry up about it, I've got a seller now for my 780 so I can get a 780Ti the moment it is out xD

 

[Steve]

But that's not true? Everything I've read (All based on stock coolers from both sides) the 780 and Titan clocked as high as they can go will easily beat the R9 290x clocked as high as it can go and use less power and produces less heat AND makes a lot less noise? Efficiency is definitely not AMD's strong point here however to give credit were credit is due, it is their most Efficient GPU to date I suppose?

Also, You know we're going to have this battle, my 780 vs your R9 290x? Well you better hurry up about it, I've got a seller now for my 780 so I can get a 780Ti the moment it is out xD

Isn't the point being that the R9 290X is so much cheaper? Doesn't really matter even if it were the exact same speed as the GTX 780, its $100 cheaper!

Also the difference between the GTX 780 Ti and the GTX 780 is very minuscule. Still the GTX 780 Ti might be dropped in price once released due to the arrival of the R9 290 this week.

As for the SUV analogy it’s wrong, you pick the one with the most cup holders.

 

[Burty117]

Isn't the point being that the R9 290X is so much cheaper? Doesn't really matter even if it were the exact same speed as the GTX 780, its $100 cheaper!

Also the difference between the GTX 780 Ti and the GTX 780 is very minuscule. Still the GTX 780 Ti might be dropped in price once released due to the arrival of the R9 290 this week.

As for the SUV analogy it?s wrong, you pick the one with the most cup holders.

But it's not here in the UK, in fact it's more expensive than a 780?
Will you guys be doing a review of the R9 290? Would be interested in the performance difference.
Yeah I know it won't be much faster but I plan on SLI'ing early next year and thought I might as well get the best Nvidia have to offer, besides, I've managed to sell my 780 to a friend and only lost hundred quid on it since I bought it.

Agreed with the SUV thing though, the more cup holders the better xD

 

[Boilerhog146]

@ Steve! the suv has to haul 6 hairy azzed hunters and their kit too..
every 780 or titan I've read about has some oc headroom left, the 290x does not..get rid of the turbine.and get it an awesome cooler ,water block or something...then the 100 bucks price dif will certainly diminish some..but it will then put preasure on the titan. a fire breathing dragon would be hard to have for a pet,me thinks..

 

[GhostRyder]

But it's not here in the UK, in fact it's more expensive than a 780?
Will you guys be doing a review of the R9 290? Would be interested in the performance difference.
Yeah I know it won't be much faster but I plan on SLI'ing early next year and thought I might as well get the best Nvidia have to offer, besides, I've managed to sell my 780 to a friend and only lost hundred quid on it since I bought it.

Agreed with the SUV thing though, the more cup holders the better xD

Well burty117, first have you read the toms hardware review of the 290x, they rate it above both the 780 and Titan in most games:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-r9-290x-hawaii-review,3650-10.html
It's pretty safe to say stock to stock the r9 290x is above a 780 and depending on the review neck and neck with a Titan.

As for our battle, well I can't get one, they are sold out everywhere I look, I have all websites set to auto notify at the moment.

I don't know where the 780 ti will fall, based on preliminary specs, if it's clocked up high enough, it may beat a Titan without as much cuda cores, but that has yet to be seen.

I'm grabbing 2 as soon as I can, but I also need my blocks as well.

 

[Burty117]

Well burty117, first have you read the toms hardware review of the 290x, they rate it above both the 780 and Titan in most games:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-r9-290x-hawaii-review,3650-10.html

It's pretty safe to say stock to stock the r9 290x is above a 780 and depending on the review neck and neck with a Titan.
.

I Agree, At Stock speeds the R9 290x beats practically both of them, I'm talking fully overclocked though, the 780 and Titan easily beat the 290x even when it is also clocked up as high as it goes (although that isn't very far over stock clocks) on Stock coolers.

As for out battle, well I can't get one, they are sold out everywhere I look, I have all websites set to auto notify at the moment.

God Damn it!

I don't know where the 780 ti will fall, based on preliminary specs, if it's clocked up high enough, it may beat a Titan without as much cuda cores, but that has yet to be seen.

The 780 happily beats the Titan, my 780 gets 800 points on average higher than stock Titan's on 3D Mark Fire Strike as an example, and I've pushed my card further since then as well.

All they need to do with the 780Ti is unlock some more cores and clock it higher, If the Titan and 780 are anything to go by 950MHz is an easy target, I personally would like Nvidia to release it at 1GHz because it's easily achievable.

I'm grabbing 2 as soon as I can, but I also need my blocks as well.

I'm grabbing one 780Ti as soon as they come out, I'll grab another early next year when I have more money to play with. I wish I was confident enough to water cool

 

[GhostRyder]

I Agree, At Stock speeds the R9 290x beats practically both of them, I'm talking fully overclocked though, the 780 and Titan easily beat the 290x even when it is also clocked up as high as it goes (although that isn't very far over stock clocks) on Stock coolers.

Maybe on stock coolers, however im not using it so we will have to see.

All they need to do with the 780Ti is unlock some more cores and clock it higher, If the Titan and 780 are anything to go by 950MHz is an easy target, I personally would like Nvidia to release it at 1GHz because it's easily achievable.

Isnt that pretty much what it is, a halfway point essentially between a titan and 780 in terms of cuda cores and specs, yet the clocks are going to be highly bumped to make it better than the titan. I don't see how this is good marketing honestly because all its doing is shooting the titan down constantly.

I'm grabbing one 780Ti as soon as they come out, I'll grab another early next year when I have more money to play with. I wish I was confident enough to water cool

Try it, its fun, buy non conductive liquid, compressions fittings, and go nuts. As long as you pay attention and double check you work, its perfectly safe. Besides the rare malfunction, the most problems that occur with liquid cooling comes from rushing and not checking your work, just checking each fitting seeing how tight it is can be the difference between 1 month of life and 5 years of life.

The 780 happily beats the Titan, my 780 gets 800 points on average higher than stock Titan's on 3D Mark Fire Strike as an example, and I've pushed my card further since then as well.

Oh it does, that's why 780 sales have butchered the titan, but I feel honestly the release of all these cards almost feel like middle fingers to the people who purchased them. I mean the 780 was a middle finger to the titan, now the 780 TI is a middle finger to the 780 and Titan at the same time.

I am going to try and get one of the r90x cards soon, but its going to depend on availability, I hope AMD puts out more soon enough! But its going to probably depend on the R290 Cards and its release for how many of the X variants come out.

 

[dividebyzero]

Isn't the point being that the R9 290X is so much cheaper? Doesn't really matter even if it were the exact same speed as the GTX 780, its $100 cheaper!

Not so fast, Steve.
Nvidia announce GTX 780 price cut to $499

EVGA pre-empted the price cut by the looks of it (ACX w/ref clocks for $500, ACX SuperClocked $520)

The reasons to pick a 290X over the 780 just decreased by one.

I Agree, At Stock speeds the R9 290x beats practically both of them, I'm talking fully overclocked though, the 780 and Titan easily beat the 290x even when it is also clocked up as high as it goes (although that isn't very far over stock clocks) on Stock coolers.

The 290X and 780 are actually pretty much equal in gaming benchmark (and are identical in level of game image quality and gameplay experience) clock-to-clock

I'm grabbing one 780Ti as soon as they come out, I'll grab another early next year when I have more money to play with. I wish I was confident enough to water cool

I don't think the 780Ti is that much of a step up from the 780 tbh, especially with these price cuts in place. You will take a bath when you resell the 780 ( check the prices on Scan and OcUK - and these cards include 3 solid games). If its about benchmarking then a second (cheaper) 780 or a third party cooler like the Arctic Accelero Xtreme III might be the way to go. Watercooling adds a lot of expense and a bit of planning to do right. If you're the kind of person that will upgrade graphics regularly, then reselling a waterblocked card limits your potential customer base so you'll never recoup anything close to your original expenditure

 

[GhostRyder]

Not so fast, Steve.
Nvidia announce GTX 780 price cut to $499

EVGA pre-empted the price cut by the looks of it (ACX w/ref clocks for $500, ACX SuperClocked $520)

The reasons to pick a 290X over the 780 just decreased by one.

The 290X and 780 are actually pretty much equal in gaming benchmark (and are identical in level of game image quality and gameplay experience) clock-to-clock

I don't think the 780Ti is that much of a step up from the 780 tbh, especially with these price cuts in place. You will take a bath when you resell the 780 ( check the prices on Scan and OcUK - and these cards include 3 solid games). If its about benchmarking then a second (cheaper) 780 or a third party cooler like the Arctic Accelero Xtreme III might be the way to go. Watercooling adds a lot of expense and a bit of planning to do right. If you're the kind of person that will upgrade graphics regularly, then reselling a waterblocked card limits your potential customer base so you'll never recoup anything close to your original expenditure

Well thats a nice price drop, 500 is a significantly better deal than it was before.

Burty117 I actually for once I agree with him, why dont you just keep your 780 and now buy a second one, it will be better in the long run I suppose because we have no idea if this card is going to be more than just a slight step up or a nice gain. At 500, its now going to be easier to get and you can bet the 780ti is going to be a minimum of 650 bucks (It does not feel like it will be 600).

As for liquid cooling and resell value, you can always put the reference cooler back on, I just keep it in a box, you just resell the card with the old cooler attached and sell the waterblocks seperate or offer a bundle.

Its good that the competition is so stiff, now cards might actually get back to a better value, though im still shocked as to why the 690 and Titan remain that pricey.

 

[Polaco]

Steve: I have seen you used AMD Catalyst 13.11 (Beta 5) in the 290X benchmarks. Maybe would be nice if you can post some with the updated revision as they say to improve performance from 8% to 30% in several games.
http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/latest-catalyst-windows-beta.aspx
Thanks!

 

[Sarcasm]

Outside of pro graphics visualization I don't think anyone has considered buying a Titan since May 23rd....the day the GTX 780 launched.

Late reply to you, but that's true. Now as of today, people can get Two 780s over a single Titan and be good for the next 3 years. I'm glad Nvidia didn't let their ego get in the way and did the right thing by cutting the prices on the 770 and 780.

 

[Guest]

I don't think you fully understand why and what damages a chip the most when it comes to temperature relations to silicon and any other conductor for that matter.

The most damaging factor when it comes to temperature is the constant fluctuation of heat. Take server chips for example, they are running under full load and very hot(70C-80C) 24/7 365 for years. But it will still probably out last your desktop chip that constantly fluctuates between idle and load temperatures.