CDPR devs will be 'forced' to work crunch hours on Cyberpunk 2077 despite promises to...

Bas Keur

Posts: 39   +16
That's a generous bonus scheme in fairness. Having said that, the extra day is problematic due to the precedence it sets. The gaming industry will struggle to retain talent under those conditions, which will only exasperate the problem. Parents with small children, for example, can rule out working for any organisation that does that.
While you are 100% correct, in this case however... every single developer is going to be filthy rich, this title will most likely pass GTAV in revenue, which was 6 billion usd (net). So no sweat shopping here. They truly are 'the good guys' of game-dev world. so hey, they earned that $$$. Just a couple more months boys and girls ;-)
 

loading88

Posts: 46   +44
It should only really be a problem if the employees don't like it. For all we know, they are passionate about making the best game they can and WANT to make it a great game. I don't think I've heard of CDPR in the news over bad working conditions or the such.

I don't mind a crunch most of the time. I've done it plenty of times for my office and I've been compensated for it either with a bonus check or a straight up raise. Obviously there are times I've missed hanging out with friends/family. I'm salary for context.
 
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poohbear

Posts: 499   +371
Every industry has a time of year wherein people get extra busy, or "crunch" time. As a teacher, it's June & December, and ya we work some crazy hours in those 2 months if one's time management skills aren't on point. But at least in December and June after all that crunch time we know we have our vacation, so that makes up for it.
 

Endymio

Posts: 695   +560
It isn’t salaried.... and they’ll get double pay for the overtime worked.... not to mention fairly substantial bonuses... did you read the article?
It may or may not be salaried; I don't see that the article states definitively one way or the other. The mere fact that employees are receiving OT pay does not imply the position is hourly.
 

Nobina

Posts: 2,678   +2,295
It's for six weeks with double pay, they're adults not children, I'm sure they can cope...

Remember they still get a day each weekend off, this really isn't news worthy, it's only in the news because the boss said a year ago this wouldn't be needed.
Ofcourse it's not the end of the world but to me it seems some people really are trying to make them look spoiled just because they don't want to work long hours and the pay is great but some people prefer their jobs to not occupy most of the day and would sacrifice money for some freedom. "If they don't like it they can leave" crowd is even worse like they don't understand it's the same **** everywhere and companies treat their workers like mules. Hopefully the boss who lied about not needing crunch didn't also lie about that double pay. I've had situations where I've worked overtime and in the end they underdelivered with money.
 

Endymio

Posts: 695   +560
How would you proposed they obtain them? The free market?
Well let's see. Under the free market, those Polish developers are making six-figure salaries, and are in line for a cut in a multi-million dollar bonus payout. Under the "Socialism-helps-the-worker" plan that came before that, they were making about 6 cents an hour ... and standing in line for milk and bread after their 12-hour factory shifts.
 

Evernessince

Posts: 5,434   +6,052
Well let's see. Under the free market, those Polish developers are making six-figure salaries, and are in line for a cut in a multi-million dollar bonus payout. Under the "Socialism-helps-the-worker" plan that came before that, they were making about 6 cents an hour ... and standing in line for milk and bread after their 12-hour factory shifts.
It's good that you agree that Poland's market works for it's people because it's not a free market, it's a regulated market.


A free market is where the government does not intervene in any way where as a regulated market operates on the same principle as a free market, only it allows for the government to regulate if it wishes.

Given that tariffs are directly against the free market as is any government regulation so too is the US a regulated and not free market. I should not need to point out that the free market gave us all the atrocities of the industrial revolution including child labor, disgusting meat packing practices, monopolies, and oh so much more.

Under the "Socialism-helps-the-worker" plan that came before that, they were making about 6 cents an hour ... and standing in line for milk and bread after their 12-hour factory shifts.
Why do people always jump to the hyperbolic and incorrect "but socialism!!" example? First, that's communism. Second, it's communism under a despot.
 
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Endymio

Posts: 695   +560
Poland's market [is] not a free market.
It's far closer to a free market than it was under its prior Socialist government. And that free market transition has helped workers' conditions dramatically.

I should not need to point out that the free market gave us all the atrocities of the industrial revolution including child labor, disgusting meat packing practices, monopolies, and oh so much more.
The mere fact that your 7th grade history book taught you that doesn't make it true. Child labor, and unsanitary food practices existed thousands of years before capitalism came about. Capitalism is why we no longer have child labor. Socialism, on the other hand, is the last bastion of child labor. By far the worst nations for child labor today -- Bangladesh, Congo, Zambia, Laos, etc -- all socialized states which heavily exploit child labor.


Why do people always jump to the hyperbolic and incorrect "but socialism!!" example? First, that's communism. Second, it's communism under a despot.
Why do people who read one Wikipedia article believe they're experts on a subject? Poland -- the Polish People's Republic which existed prior to '89, was indeed socialist. When Gomułka himself took power, he declared Poland's right to take the "road to socialism"; it was indeed the defining plank of his tenure. The PPR nationalized nearly every factory, farm, and shop in its borders; you would struggle hard to find a more textbook example of socialism.
 
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Evernessince

Posts: 5,434   +6,052
It's far closer to a free market than it was under its prior Socialist government. And that free market transition has helped workers' conditions dramatically.
You misunderstand. Poland switched from a socialist economuy to a market based economy. In this case, a regulated market. "closer to a free market" doesn't change the fact that it is indeed a regulated market as I stated earlier. You stated it is a free market, which is false. Now you are trying to argue that it is "closer", changing the goal posts because you were wrong. FYI poland has many socialist systems still in place. After all socialism is not just an economical system, it's a governmental one as well. In fact I find it hard to see a nation that doesn't have some socialist policy. I think with suspicion upon anyone who claims any single system is the sole reason when in reality modern governments use policy from many different political ideologies.

The mere fact that your 7th grade history book taught you that doesn't make it true. Child labor, and unsanitary food practices existed thousands of years before capitalism came about. Capitalism is why we no longer have child labor. Socialism, on the other hand, is the last bastion of child labor. By far the worst nations for child labor today -- Bangladesh, Congo, Zambia, Laos, etc -- all socialized states which heavily exploit child labor.
lol, no we don't have child labor because it's illegal. Hence a regulated market.

You are conflating economic systems and economic policy. It's possible to have all those bad things in any economic system, it all depends on the policy regulating or not regulating the system. China is also a market based economy yet they still clearly have poor conditions.

Your insult was really unnecessary. Your words reflect upon yourself more than others. Just rude.


Why do people who read one Wikipedia article believe they're experts on a subject? Poland -- the Polish People's Republic which existed prior to '89, was indeed socialist. When Gomułka himself took power, he declared Poland's right to take the "road to socialism"; it was indeed the defining plank of his tenure. The PPR nationalized nearly every factory, farm, and shop in its borders; you would struggle hard to find a more textbook example of socialism.
Poland was indeed socialist back then but the two items you specifically mentioned: low pay and breadlines are not attributable to socialism solely, which was my point.

Socialism does not permit control of pay in the same manner as communism. In socialism the top control for pay is in proportion of the top earners vs the bottom earners. This system is similar to what America had in the 50s and 60s, where top earners were kept within a reasonable ratio to those on the bottom through taxes.

Breadlines can be attributable to any number of factors aside from just the economic system. How about, for example, the fact that Poland was still recovering from WWII.

Economic systems are not so cut and dry. Your reason isn't the sole reason x or y occurred and policy and context surround the economy need to be considered.
 
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Gezzer

Posts: 82   +49
I don't get It. Until coronavirus strike, overtime was like my main source of disposable income. Thanks to light work on every second weekend I did annually like 140% of my contract money in 2019. But on the other hand, I'm single and love My job, so I was happy. Game devs must really hate Their jobs, if this "crunch" is something bad
There's actually 2 types of "crunch" time in the software development business. The original one was simply the push to the finish line and mandatory OT was avoided as much as possible. Plus OT meant OT pay for most of the employees. Ones that didn't get it usually got a year end bonus instead, or had a piece of the company so the sacrifice wasn't too massive.
The other type is "EA crunch time" which unfortunately has become the standard for most of the industry. It's not only mandatory but actually part of the development plan. As well most of the workers are salaried with no OT for crunch. And we're not talking an extra 8 hour day a week as in CDPR's case, More like 10-14 hour days with one day off (if your lucky).
So I don't have a problem with CDPR having to do crunch. It's not a calculated move to wring as much cheap labour as they can out of their workforce. It's a no choice emergency move that I'm sure management regrets having to resort to. More importantly it's not a massively horrendous situation for the workers, just an extra 8 hour day for a month and a half.

Give this a read...

 
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Endymio

Posts: 695   +560
Poland was indeed socialist back then
So why did you claim it wasn't?

Breadlines can be attributable to any number of factors aside from just the economic system. How about, for example, the fact that Poland was still recovering from WWII.
Recovering for 40 years?

I'm through with this discussion here. If you want to continue it, start a thread in general discussion. This has gone far OT for far too long.
 

StrikerRocket

Posts: 53   +25
6 weeks of crunch to squash bugs after delaying the release by 7 months?

I'm definitely waiting for reviews before I spend my $70.
I will definitely wait for reviews AND for longer until I can grab it at a high discount price... :)
Still have to finish RDR2 in the interval, so...
 

Swinchin

Posts: 6   +0
This type of work is almsot always salaried, for this very reason, to get extra work out of you.

As an hourly guy, the concept of forced 6 day OT is shocking. Our employee contract states that OT is not mandatory, because work life balance is a thing and I'm hired in to do my 40 hours. Being allowed to force OT sounds ripe for abuse.
I mean it's a short term term 48 hour job with an estimated 10 years wages pay out.
CDPR is a Polish company with worker protection laws that makes anything more than 8 hour days 6 days a week including overtime count as slave labour.
Poland has a really high quality of life, 100 hour forced unpaid overtime is crunch, and it is an American problem that needs to be addressed.
Equivacating crunch and worker protected overtime will damage any chances we ever have in preventing crunch starting in games and moving to other industries.
So please for the love of workers stop pretending Poland is an American state.
 

Swinchin

Posts: 6   +0
ufffff.. amazon..
The irony of saying a 100 hour week 12 hour week US company has saved you from an occasional 6 day week, 8 hour day Polish company is lost on everyone lmao.
I mean Shrier has admitted he asked no questions and dud no research on anything for this.
We've seen so many people turn against anti-crunch campaigns because of this almost desperation that saying 8 hours a day is the same as 14-12, saying that 100 hour weeks aren't crunch 48 hours are, saying there is no difference between crunch and overtime.
The reality is even during this fake crunch these hours are heavenly for most American workers without any worker rights as most people don't get 16 hours for the rest of their stuff in life per day as a minimum.

If we don't disown Shrier we can never fix crunch, make people aware of abusive practices of Amazon not create a perfect strawman the public will never let go of.
 

Swinchin

Posts: 6   +0
There's actually 2 types of "crunch" time in the software development business. The original one was simply the push to the finish line and mandatory OT was avoided as much as possible. Plus OT meant OT pay for most of the employees. Ones that didn't get it usually got a year end bonus instead, or had a piece of the company so the sacrifice wasn't too massive.
The other type is "EA crunch time" which unfortunately has become the standard for most of the industry. It's not only mandatory but actually part of the development plan. As well most of the workers are salaried with no OT for crunch. And we're not talking an extra 8 hour day a week as in CDPR's case, More like 10-14 hour days with one day off (if your lucky).
So I don't have a problem with CDPR having to do crunch. It's not a calculated move to wring as much cheap labour as they can out of their workforce. It's a no choice emergency move that I'm sure management regrets having to resort to. More importantly it's not a massively horrendous situation for the workers, just an extra 8 hour day for a month and a half.

Give this a read...

Thank you.

We need more comments like this or we'll never fix EA crunch.

If we're arguing against higher quality of life folks we can never improve our own.

I so wish Techspot and Bloomberg did actual research before this, wouldn't of damaged our chances this bad.
 

Swinchin

Posts: 6   +0
Ofcourse it's not the end of the world but to me it seems some people really are trying to make them look spoiled just because they don't want to work long hours and the pay is great but some people prefer their jobs to not occupy most of the day and would sacrifice money for some freedom. "If they don't like it they can leave" crowd is even worse like they don't understand it's the same **** everywhere and companies treat their workers like mules. Hopefully the boss who lied about not needing crunch didn't also lie about that double pay. I've had situations where I've worked overtime and in the end they underdelivered with money.
Seriously dude it isn't America ffs.

That pay is mandated by law.

8 hour days are mandated by law.

48 hour weeks are mandated by law.

The polls companies run are enforced by law.

Breaking laws gets you arrested.

EA's abuse is legal that's the reason they do it.


Look mate there's a common strategy against human rights and stuff called gaslighting in which folks distract from serious problems say 100 hour week, 14-12 hour abuse by claiming that the activists want 8 hour days scrapped.

This is gaslighting and it's now used by EA and ND protectors, this seriously damaged our chances to stop abuse.
 

Swinchin

Posts: 6   +0
Seriously guys all this stuff is just Bloomberg making any workers look spoilt try treating the developers with respect.

Majority of CDPR devs speaking out speak out against this gaslighting and try to explain the human rights policies present in Poland which isn't present in EA or ND.


Look at the stuff assumed about this, folks are saying this is 14 hour a day when by law it's 8. Devs when asked say it's 8, 48 hour week limit by law, 48÷6 is 8.

People say this won't be paid, everything is under contract, in a country with no lobbying and very strict laws.
People say these workers have no protection under law, Poland has multiple worker protection agencies which start and enforce laws under even a single anonymous complaint which'll then look into every aspect of the company and can arrest a CEO if contracted hours are breached or wages aren't paid, agencies with no black marks or failings to their name.
In addition to this same point Poland's workers rights laws are from EU directives which allows every single individual worker to petition the EU human rights courts in a system that had so many limits on how you treat your workers it drive the UK out of the EU.

People are saying this comes from an uproar of workers nor wanting to work their low hours in a low hour company, when most developers speaking up about how they feel intimidated into not being allowed to be proud their game went gold (is finished, this time is quality assurance), that they get threatened by death threats by the Shrier fans which you can all find, that they get emotionally blackmailed by Americans working 60 hour weeks whom refuse to look into the situation more deeply.

People say this is the same as the 100 hour weeks from EA crunch and other American industries when an extra 8 hour in a week for 6 weeks for a bonus equating to 50k which is 10 years wages in Poland.



You can fact check all this stuff, in fact I beg all of you too, this situation puts us back a couple of years already, but if this continues it will not only set us back to square one it'll create a large entrenched defenders if real crunch which'll recruit and stick to using 8 hours days to gaslight you unless we disown Shrier's malpractice.

Yes Shrier was right about Bioware, if a clock is stuck on 12 it'd be right at midnight and noon.
The truth of the matter is Shrier admitted publicly he didn't ask about hours, pay, the poll etc. All he did was base it on an email which'll prove temporary paid overtime but not this whole 14 hour day stuff.
By factchecking constantly primary sources I have done more research than Shrier has admitted to or this article which damages the anti-crunch campaign by only using secondary sources, the Twitter comments from someone admitted to not using more than that one email, but treats them as absolute fact and extrapolated bizarrely from it.



Look at what the general public has started saying about crunch due to this to be completely honest illegal defamation campaign of saying random unresearched, non-backed stuff in order to cause their games to be failures (and deprive workers 10% of sales).

We have oil workers in the US working 14 hours most days mocking us for acting as if we're all claiming that working a 10 to 6 in an office on a Saturday is some great stretch now assuming all crunch stories such as EA and ND are just workers being lazy because that's what you have insisted to them.

We have folks responding to say Nobina saying that a temporary 8 hours dominates your day, the responders are typically people struggling with often only 2 to 4 hours in the day to eat or spend time with their kids now assuming we're all claiming that having 8 hours to do life stuff and sleep 8 hours coinciding with how much of life school dominates for their children of 7 to 3, claiming these folks must not want to work at all.
The reached these conclusions because that is what say Nobina is insisting so I can't cast blame on the pro-crunch folks you guys are misleading.

Finally we have apologists for ND and EA whom you have now given massive ammunition to justify the absence of workers rights in the US. They are currently on an unchecked rampage by feeding into your unfounded claims both often simultaneously saying Polish companies do the same as driving workers to an early grave with 100 hour weeks, as well as saying that crunch is a myth and that it's the same as paid, contracted, limited overtime.
These folks use you to use defenders of Polish human rights to insist that there should be 'no double standard', 'every company relies on crunch, so are you going to live as a hermit' all based on your claims that 48 and 100 are the same number.



There is so much more damage done to the anti-crunch campaign I just figured I'd try to give you some idea of what you have done and the work ahead of us.
Each of those strawmen need to now be dealt with separately as a seperate branch of the campaign constantly referring to every source we can to break down the misconception which have been built by you.

This wasn't meant as an open letter originally but please just stop jumping through all these hoops and look at the primary sources.
Not the secondary sources of the tweets of someone whom has admitted to not caring enough to do research.


Is this 5 year long smear campaign against CDPR really worth the human cost?

The moment I'm presented with a single actual piece of evidence against CDPR I'll tell them to eff themselves.

After all look back I never once defended CDPR as untouchable or whatever, I simply described the context of every aspect of the situation, if the situation were to involve actual bad stuff on CDPR's side it would've included that.

And here is a promise, I swear that if any developer from CDPR is driven to an early grave like with the EA and ND which you've given so much power I will off myself.
In return I'd like you and this journalism-site-with-no-sources-other-than-twitter to look at the actual numbers, the pay, the hours, the human rights first world countries have etc.

Please help the people hurt by crunch by drowning Shrier.