FDA: If youth e-cigarette use doesn't decline, it will be banned

captaincranky

TechSpot Addict
Nobody here cares.

You get responses to your nonsense / propaganda which you simply can't resolve, and you then regress to spouting a bunch of addict's dogma.

You're delusional if you think I'm going to waste time listening to some windbag biddy, spouting the same crap I've endured from you for the past six pages.
 
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pit1209

TS Booster
Nobody here cares.

You get responses to your nonsense / propaganda which you simply can't resolve, and you then regress to spouting a bunch of addict's dogma.

You're delusional if you think I'm going to waste time listening to some windbag biddy, spouting the same crap I've endured from you for the past six pages.
Man, the fact that he has been like that just to defend his addiction has worried me more than any smoker or addict I've known. I mean my mother has smoke since I have memory and she knows the consequences and don't care but this guy has been searching for every scientific nonsense like "we don't know what it does yet so it must be good" and promoting it like vaping is the cure of cancer and what not.
 
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James00007

TS Booster
Man, the fact that he has been like that just to defend his addiction has worried me more than any smoker or addict I've known. I mean my mother has smoke since I have memory and she knows the consequences and don't care but this guy has been searching for every scientific nonsense like "we don't know what it does yet so it must be good" and promoting it like vaping is the cure of cancer and what not.
More worrying is your stance on this, when you have a close family member effected by smoking, that while vaping can't cure cancer / it will help to prevent from developing it from smoking and prevent other smoking related disease.

Scientific proof isn't nonsense. If you can't accept that vaping is safer than smoking when it is proven scientific fact, if you can't grasp that science and medical research can know enough about something to show that it is safer than something else then you deny reality and common sense.

like "We know what it does and we know its better".
 
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pit1209

TS Booster
More worrying is your stance on this, when you have a close family member effected by smoking, that while vaping can't cure cancer / it will help to prevent from developing it from smoking and prevent other smoking related disease.

Scientific proof isn't nonsense. If you can't accept that vaping is safer than smoking when it is proven scientific fact, if you can't grasp that science and medical research can know enough about something to show that it is safer than something else then you deny reality and common sense.

like "We know what it does and we know its better".
It is not a scientific fact and it doesn't matter the propaganda you show in here, I mean it was a "scientific" fact that smoking cigarettes was good for your health also if we go by your rules.
The only scientific fact is that smoking cessation is healthy and should be promoted and that nicotine is a very strong addictive substance that should not be defended and I'm not gaining anything by going against vaping. You know? in fact I've never been against vaping, we all started this thread because the big corporations are targeting vaping to the young and looks like the majority here understands what that means but you are trying to state multiple times like some kind of brainwashed dude that vaping is the cure for cancer and pharma is against it and "science" and everyone should vape and whatever but you can keep that nonsense for yourself and all the nicotine addicts because your case to validate an addictive substance is just that, nonsense.
 

James00007

TS Booster
It is not a scientific fact and it doesn't matter the propaganda you show in here
It matters because people that are completely clueless and who publish what can only be described as wrong need to be shown how wrong they are by qualified medical experts. Calling it propaganda is just a tantrum from being proven wrong or having your ignorance disproved.

I mean it was a "scientific" fact that smoking cigarettes was good for your health also if we go by your rules.
By taking this stance then you believe all science is wrong.

Science has progressed a lot since the revelation of the harms of smoking which was first revealed by the Royal College of Physicians (the same organisation that say vaping is 95%+ safer than smoking).

The only scientific fact is that smoking cessation is healthy and should be promoted and that nicotine is a very strong addictive substance that should not be defended
Did you know that smoking cessation IS nicotine? Clearly not. Nicotine replacement therapy is used in Smoking cessation using gums and patches, these use the same pharmaceutical grade nicotine that is in e-cigs/vaping. Again showing you lack even the most basic understand of this subject and a complete contradiction of your viewpoint.

What else is used in Smoking cessation? Varenicline (Champix) (the FDA and Big Pharma want to give this to the youth that you are so worried about) with healthy side effects like:

- constipation
- diarrhea
- difficulty concentrating
- dizziness
- flatulence (passing gas)
- headache
- nausea
- sleep disturbance (difficulty sleeping or abnormal dreams)
- unusual tiredness or weakness
- vomiting
- signs of mental changes (e.g., changes in behaviour, changes in mood, hallucinations, thinking about harming self or others)
-signs of depression (e.g., poor concentration, changes in weight, changes in sleep, decreased interest in activities, thoughts of suicide)
- seizures
- signs of heart attack (e.g., sudden chest pain or pain radiating to back, down arm, jaw; sensation of tightness or pressure of the chest; nausea; vomiting; sweating; anxiety)
- signs of a severe skin reaction such as blistering, peeling, a rash covering a large area of the body, a rash that spreads quickly, or a rash combined with fever or discomfort
- signs of stroke (e.g., sudden or severe headache; sudden loss of coordination; vision changes; sudden slurring of speech; or unexplained weakness, numbness, or pain in arm or leg)
-symptoms of a serious allergic reaction (e.g., puffy, swollen eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands or feet; hives; shortness of breath; or a severe skin rash with peeling and blistering, possibly with headache, fever, coughing, or pain)

I'm not gaining anything by going against vaping. You know? in fact I've never been against vaping,
Hypocritical and contradiction
He is not lying, you're only delusional defending an addictive substance that has no other meaning than to destroy peoples bodies and minds,
Your first post where you attacked it without even the most basic knowledge, and after being shown that knowledge you have ignored it. You have done nothing other than rally against anything positive said about vaping and everyone that has spoke positively in any way of it. You have been nothing but against vaping here.

because the big corporations are targeting vaping to the young
Very sweeping statement, most of the vaping industry is not targeting to the young, there are already laws in place to stop this, bad actors that do this should be put out of business (not take out vaping entirely)

we all started this thread
looks like the majority here understands what that means
Forum privilege where you and a couple of others here act like you speak for the entire human race then to gang up to berate, silence and get posts removed from anyone that disagrees with you and who prove your complete lack of knowledge and show you up.

like some kind of brainwashed dude
nonsense

that vaping is the cure for cancer
everyone should vape and whatever
nonsense
please tell me which post I said either of those things in. That's right I didn't.

pharma is against it and "science"
proven

you can keep that nonsense for yourself and all the nicotine addicts because your case to validate an addictive substance is just that, nonsense.
I mean my mother has smoke since I have memory and she knows the consequences
The nicotine addicts that use nicotine in smoking cessation which you said is healthy. I feel embarrassed for you. Everything you have said in this thread has been nonsense or hypocritical and you have shown nothing to back anything up, in fact 1 person came with 1 study against vaping in this entire thread (not sure if that was you) for which I showed it's lack of credibility due to being funded by Big Pharma.

I'm a medical doctor and I have knowledge of the multiple and harmful substances that just the combustion of something can create specially when it's absorbed in the lungs that are not for anything else but O2/CO2 exchange.
Is this a joke? With everything you have said this part was the biggest nonsense of all. I would be very surprised if you are actually a medical doctor with the things your have said here, the denial of science and the complete inability to recognise medical evidence above the anti-vaping blithering nonsensical knowledgeless inaccuracy in statements of yourself and your friends. Oh and you use the word combustion, back to the basic level of understand of vaping: there is no combustion.

because I'm not going to reply to you anymore about this again.
This was one of the better ones.
 
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James00007

TS Booster
We Are Completely Overreacting to Vaping
The moral panic against it is an irrational response fueled by anti-smoker bias.

https://slate.com/technology/2019/01/vaping-is-good-anti-smoker-bias.html

"That consensus—that e-cigarette use should be actively encouraged for adult smokers—is based on a growing body of evidence that e-cigarettes will benefit public health by becoming a substitute for combustible tobacco, helping people to quit smoking, smoke less often, or never take up smoking in the first place. The concept of population-level harm reduction tends to frame the entire debate, and Gottlieb is, nominally at least, a harm reduction advocate who believes in the potential of e-cigarettes to save smokers’ lives. Yet he also seems persistently incapable of advocating forcefully on behalf of adult vapers, to the point that the disjointed communications strategy of the agency he leads is doing far more to stoke fear about vaping than it is to promote the benefits of switching."



A new study in the New England Journal of Medicine is stirring up a complex mixture of feelings with some objective data about vaping. The study shows that e-cigarettes are 83 percent more effective than nicotine replacement products for helping people quit smoking. In the U.K., the reaction is positive. In the U.S., the reaction is tinged by moral panic.
 
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pit1209

TS Booster
It matters because people that are completely clueless and who publish what can only be described as wrong need to be shown how wrong they are by qualified medical experts. Calling it propaganda is just a tantrum from being proven wrong or having your ignorance disproved.


By taking this stance then you believe all science is wrong.

Science has progressed a lot since the revelation of the harms of smoking which was first revealed by the Royal College of Physicians (the same organisation that say vaping is 95%+ safer than smoking).


Did you know that smoking cessation IS nicotine? Clearly not. Nicotine replacement therapy is used in Smoking cessation using gums and patches, these use the same pharmaceutical grade nicotine that is in e-cigs/vaping. Again showing you lack even the most basic understand of this subject and a complete contradiction of your viewpoint.

What else is used in Smoking cessation? Varenicline (Champix) (the FDA and Big Pharma want to give this to the youth that you are so worried about) with healthy side effects like:

- constipation
- diarrhea
- difficulty concentrating
- dizziness
- flatulence (passing gas)
- headache
- nausea
- sleep disturbance (difficulty sleeping or abnormal dreams)
- unusual tiredness or weakness
- vomiting
- signs of mental changes (e.g., changes in behaviour, changes in mood, hallucinations, thinking about harming self or others)
-signs of depression (e.g., poor concentration, changes in weight, changes in sleep, decreased interest in activities, thoughts of suicide)
- seizures
- signs of heart attack (e.g., sudden chest pain or pain radiating to back, down arm, jaw; sensation of tightness or pressure of the chest; nausea; vomiting; sweating; anxiety)
- signs of a severe skin reaction such as blistering, peeling, a rash covering a large area of the body, a rash that spreads quickly, or a rash combined with fever or discomfort
- signs of stroke (e.g., sudden or severe headache; sudden loss of coordination; vision changes; sudden slurring of speech; or unexplained weakness, numbness, or pain in arm or leg)
-symptoms of a serious allergic reaction (e.g., puffy, swollen eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands or feet; hives; shortness of breath; or a severe skin rash with peeling and blistering, possibly with headache, fever, coughing, or pain)


Hypocritical and contradiction

Your first post where you attacked it without even the most basic knowledge, and after being shown that knowledge you have ignored it. You have done nothing other than rally against anything positive said about vaping and everyone that has spoke positively in any way of it. You have been nothing but against vaping here.


Very sweeping statement, most of the vaping industry is not targeting to the young, there are already laws in place to stop this, bad actors that do this should be put out of business (not take out vaping entirely)



Forum privilege where you and a couple of others here act like you speak for the entire human race then to gang up to berate, silence and get posts removed from anyone that disagrees with you and who prove your complete lack of knowledge and show you up.


nonsense



nonsense
please tell me which post I said either of those things in. That's right I didn't.


proven



The nicotine addicts that use nicotine in smoking cessation which you said is healthy. I feel embarrassed for you. Everything you have said in this thread has been nonsense or hypocritical and you have shown nothing to back anything up, in fact 1 person came with 1 study against vaping in this entire thread (not sure if that was you) for which I showed it's lack of credibility due to being funded by Big Pharma.


Is this a joke? With everything you have said this part was the biggest nonsense of all. I would be very surprised if you are actually a medical doctor with the things your have said here, the denial of science and the complete inability to recognise medical evidence above the anti-vaping blithering nonsensical knowledgeless inaccuracy in statements of yourself and your friends. Oh and you use the word combustion, back to the basic level of understand of vaping: there is no combustion.


This was one of the better ones.
You keep creating straws just to get a point, you're obviously brainwashed or an addict. You can say whatever you want but you have no right to state that I'm not what I said.

There is no conclusive evidence about vaping because it has been in the market since less than 2 decades ago, especially since most are made in china. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cigarette, and the FDA has clearly stated contrary to your statements that "Although ENDS [electronic nicotine delivery systems] may potentially provide cessation benefits to individual smokers, no ENDS have been approved as effective cessation aids." as well as "A 2016 World Health Organization (WHO) report found that the scientific evidence for the effectiveness of vaping for quitting smoking is "scant and of low certainty" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_of_medical_organizations_on_electronic_cigarettes. That's science and it is inconclusive on the matter so you can quit your propaganda about vaping been the next cure of cancer. Yes, it helps in smoking cessation but not that much apparently https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29485005.

Something is certain about this and that is that vaping is not safe, it is "safer" than smoking but taking into account how this is not targeted just as a smoking cessation product and instead as a new nicotine product to hook anyone no matter the age and that's why I'm here trying to bring some information you have clearly avoided in your pursuit of defending a toxic substance https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/14/18141057/electronic-cigarette-health-toxic-chemical-exposures-heavy-metals.

I almost forgot:
  • Vomiting
  • Stomach pain
  • Heartburn
  • Drowsiness
  • Nausea
  • Ringing in the ears
  • Loss of hearing
  • Hives or rash
  • Swelling of the eyes, face, lips, tongue, or throat
  • Wheezing or breathing difficulties
  • Hoarseness
  • Fast heartbeat or fast breathing
  • Cold, clammy skin
  • Bloody vomit or vomit that looks like coffee grounds
  • Bright red blood in stools or black or tarry stools
That's Aspirin side effects and look at this: https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-8686-2050/penicillin-v-potassium-oral/penicillin-v-potassium-oral/details/list-sideeffects. That's penicillin, hope you think it twice before using any of this so called most important medications in modern medicine and try to understand how medications side effects are disclosed before trying to make one sound like death.
 

James00007

TS Booster
I totally understand why many pro vaping posters stopped posting here. All this anti-vaping rhetoric is being shared by people that don't know what vaping is, at even the most basic level and this need to share opinion based on some twisted idea of what they have made it up to be in there mind. The lack of knowledge shines through when attempting to debate with anyone who is uneducated on this and they continue to be embarrassed and found wanting.

95%+ safer than smoking.
83 percent more effective than nicotine replacement products.

The continued injured feeling of 3 (all of which have sank to the level of person insult and call for my silence) are of little concern to me. More important is showing real evidence and how completely irrational the opposition has been for anyone else that may read this thread, this is the kind of illogical behavior of anti-vaping campaigners right across the board.

https://www.clivebates.com/the-great-american-youth-vaping-epidemic-really/

"Neither Dr Gottlieb or Dr Adams defines the term ‘nicotine addiction’. In real life, addiction terminology is highly contested. For example, some see addiction as a brain disease, while others reject the brain disease model as far too reductionist. But let’s look at the conventional definitions: Sussman and Sussman surveyed the literature and identified five characteristics of addiction"

"Nicotine is the primary psychoactive substance in tobacco smoke or e-cigarette aerosol. But the dependence-forming characteristic of nicotine is strengthened by interactions with other substances present in cigarette smoke, for example, monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs)."

"There is no evidence that vape aerosol contains MAOIs, such as ß-carboline alkaloids found in cigarette smoke."

"What then is the basis for treating all nicotine use as if it is equally reinforcing, dependence-forming and addictive?"

"There are plenty of reasons why senior public health officials would hear only the most extreme cases, and that those involved in relaying such cases would exaggerate or distort the cases – many of their interlocutors are engaged in a political campaign to use FDA regulation to apply a da facto ban to vaping. Selection bias and confirmation bias are everpresent dangers here."

"But if we look at what we do know, the picture is far from nightmare portrayed in the press and by public health officials. Let’s try to inject the facts we do have into the discussion."

"Most adolescent vapers are not regular or daily users"

"E-cigarette frequency of use matters. There are at least two different vaping behaviours in adolescents and the difference really matters:

experimentation and frivolous use (most users)
dependence-forming substance use (some users)"

" Applying this proportion to the 2018 data would suggest about 4% of high school students are daily users (this compares to the headline 20.8% use in the past 30-days)."

"But the analysis does not stop there. What would this group of regular or daily users be doing instead of vaping if e-cigarettes did not exist? Needless to say, that data has not been disclosed. The data we do have strongly suggest that many of these more regular users would be smoking."

"If these frequent-cig users are mostly already smokers or likely to become smokers, then this may be the start of them switching away from smoking – and therefore it could be beneficial for public health (and we have seen rapid declines in adolescent smoking as vaping has risen). From previous studies, we know that frequent vaping is almost entirely concentrated in young people who smoke or use other tobacco products. Less than one in one thousand young people had become frequent vapers having never used tobacco before. And even in these cases, we do not know what this tiny minority would have done in the absence of e-cigarettes – possibly gone on to smoke."

" Not all vaping is with nicotine"
"CDC/FDA approach vaping as if it is a tobacco use behaviour, but that is an invalid assumption: some vaping involves no nicotine, some involves other substances."

"Nicotine is not “uniquely harmful” to the developing brain"

"A unique danger? Uniquely harmful? Really? More harmful than cannabis, alcohol, crystal meth, fentanyl? More harmful than American football? Worse than a car crash? Obviously, it is inappropriate to make wild claims like that nicotine is uniquely harmful."

"But what of the more modest claim that young people’s brains are harmed by nicotine? Where would you look for evidence? How about all those young people who have been exposed to nicotine as smokers? There are millions of them happily pursuing adult life: but are they suffering any form of damage? In 1980, 30.5% of US 12th graders were past-30-day smokers, 21.3% daily smokers [Monitoring the Future]. This group would be in their 50s by now, and most would have quit smoking years ago. Where is the evidence of impairment in this population arising from youth nicotine use?"


"So an important rider on this claim is that: there are no human data that show nicotine causes material harms to the adolescent brain. The evidence that there exists is based on rat and mouse studies. Even the Surgeon General’s 2016 report recognises just how indirect and speculative the claims of harm are:"



"So 29.8% of high school students are using alcohol, and 13.5% “binge drinking” (according to CDC’s definition) but 20.8% vape. There are about as many marijuana users as vapers. What is the response to that?"
"If there are any material risks with vaping, they would arise from decades of use, and only if the vaping becomes a smoking habit that would not otherwise have happened. Alcohol use, in contrast, can end a life instantly, pulverised in a road traffic accident, or put young people into violent, abusive or vulnerable situations that can be acutely harmful."
"But where are the calls to limit adult access to alcohol?"


"Dr. Gottlieb is quick to attribute the youth vaping epidemic to ‘flavors’. And quick to determine that taking them off the market would roll back the epidemic. Far too quick."

"In doing so he misses much subtlety about how flavours and product appeal actually work in public health terms – for both adults and adolescents. Many of us have tried to explain it, but apparently without success. If it can be shown that certain flavours change behaviour, it is quite possible that change will be beneficial – an attraction away from smoking."


"The absurdity of this approach reached a peak in November 2018, when FDA decided to remove flavoured e-cigarettes from convenience stores and allow them only to be sold in age-restricted locations."

"So cigarettes were unaffected, and the only vapes allowed were those most like cigarettes. FDA has completely lost track of what it is doing and why.

AG Miller also highlighted the obvious absurdity of leaving only those products which most closely resemble cigarettes on the market.

Generations of young people have taken up cigarette smoking using
almost exclusively tobacco and menthol flavors. There is no obvious logic to restricting e-liquid flavors to only those that mimic the most dangerous tobacco products and have been the main basis for initiation in the past – and no justification of such a move has been provided.

Attorney General Tom Miller, Iowa. To Scott Gottlieb. Youth tobacco and nicotine use – proportionate and responsible reaction, 14 November 2018. [link]"

"But nowhere in the Act is a false equivalence created between, for example, dying in agony from cancer or the debilitating misery of COPD and adolescent vaping, which is, objectively, a low-risk behaviour with minimal health consequences. Quitting smoking by switching to vaping is a huge benefit to a smoker. Starting to vape causes negligible harm to an adolescent – and even those vaping regularly may be doing it as an alternative to smoking, in which case it is a benefit."




"My view in brief: we are a drug using society, and nicotine – delivered without smoke – is a relatively benign drug. Efforts to stop people using nicotine run counter to efforts to reduce their exposure to smoke. The government should not be intervening to obstruct much safer alternatives to smoking while allowing cigarettes to be ubiquitously available.

So when is this debate about rethinking nicotine actually going to happen? Or is it just a diversionary tactic to look serious without being serious? At the moment we have FDA and the Surgeon General taking to social media with slogans that appear to have been copied from the playbook of activist organisations. That is not the debate we need now."



"FDA, CDC and the Surgeon General have lost sight of the most important fact in tobacco policy. To paraphrase Bill Clinton: “it’s the smoke,stupid“. Yet all have become obsessed with the ‘threat’ from much safer alternatives to smoking, such as vaping. FDA is hardly doing anything to address the 2.3 million teens still using combustible tobacco products (CDC, 2017)."
 
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James00007

TS Booster
You keep creating straws just to get a point,
I don't recognise this language. This is nonsense.

you're obviously brainwashed or an addict.
Ignorant personal insult which has been resorted to due to embarrassment.

You can say whatever you want but you have no right to state that I'm not what I said.
I have a right when you have no proof of this being true, on even an intelligence level.

There is no conclusive evidence about vaping because it has been in the market since less than 2 decades ago,
Wrong. Denial of scientific and medical evidence which by your standard eliminates your own views/"evidence" (there is not much and none that I haven't shown completely invalid).

Irrelevant. Do you want me to list what else is made in china? Most of the things you own.

and the FDA has clearly stated contrary to your statements that "Although ENDS [electronic nicotine delivery systems] may potentially provide cessation benefits to individual smokers, no ENDS have been approved as effective cessation aids."
I have shown why the FDA is so out of touch on this issue throughout this entire thread.

Scott Gottlieb, M.D. 23rd Commissioner of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration
"Vaping may well be a good alternative for currently addicted smokers to help them quit cigarettes, and reduce their risk"

(see previous post for more this)

"A 2016 World Health Organization (WHO) report found that the scientific evidence for the effectiveness of vaping for quitting smoking is "scant and of low certainty" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_of_medical_organizations_on_electronic_cigarettes.
The World Health Organisation are funded by Big Pharma. There are millions of vapers that have switched from smoking to vaping.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/30/health/ecigarettes-nicotine-smoking-quit.html
It has been one of the most pressing unanswered questions in public health: Do e-cigarettes actually help smokers quit? Now, the first, large rigorous assessment offers an unequivocal answer: yes.

The study, published Wednesday in the New England Journal of Medicine, found that e-cigarettes were nearly twice as effective as conventional nicotine replacement products, like patches and gum, for quitting smoking.

That's science and it is inconclusive on the matter so you can quit your propaganda about vaping been the next cure of cancer.
Repetitive nonsense that we already went over. I didn't say vaping was a cure for cancer. The first thing I said was:

1 Billion Tobacco deaths this century if trends continue. Advocates who support free and unhindered access to the full range of e-cigarette (vaping) products will help to enable the single most important advance in public health since the discovery of antibiotics: in one small country alone, full support for this approach has the potential to save millions of lives just among those alive today.

Yes, it helps in smoking cessation but not that much apparently https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29485005.
No medical evidence there and nothing to support your ignorance.

Something is certain about this and that is that vaping is not safe, it is "safer" than smoking
95%+ safer. This is a matter of what you class as not safe. You can say smoking is not safe (even though smoking doesn't kill everyone that smokes) but it will take at least 30 years for it's effect to cause harm. Now take something that is 95%+ safer, how long will that take to cause harm?

but taking into account how this is not targeted just as a smoking cessation product and instead as a new nicotine product to hook anyone no matter the age
This is just made up to suit your narrative. You make up these alarmist statements which and false and completely destroy your credibility.

and that's why I'm here trying to bring some information you have clearly avoided in your pursuit of defending a toxic substance https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/14/18141057/electronic-cigarette-health-toxic-chemical-exposures-heavy-metals.
I am pro vaping. It's your anti-vaping job to bring this information
At least we know what you based your views upon (sensational media). I'll take The Royal College of Physicians reports and the multitude of doctors, experts over your alarmist and inaccurate media article.
I have clearly shown numerous information and brought plenty of information to prove you wrong.

I almost forgot:
Vomiting
Stomach pain
Heartburn
Drowsiness
Nausea
Ringing in the ears
Loss of hearing
Hives or rash
Swelling of the eyes, face, lips, tongue, or throat
Wheezing or breathing difficulties
Hoarseness
Fast heartbeat or fast breathing
Cold, clammy skin
Bloody vomit or vomit that looks like coffee grounds
Bright red blood in stools or black or tarry stools
That's Aspirin side effects and look at this: https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-8686-2050/penicillin-v-potassium-oral/penicillin-v-potassium-oral/details/list-sideeffects. That's penicillin, hope you think it twice before using any of this so called most important medications in modern medicine and try to understand how medications side effects are disclosed before trying to make one sound like death.
Yes these are the side effects of medications which are not present in nicotine use when used in vaping or NRT.

https://pulmccm.org/review-articles/chantix-associated-with-thousands-of-suicidal-thoughts-and-self-harm-review-plos-furberg-moore/

[SIZE=6]Chantix users reported thousands of suicidal thoughts and self-harm (Review, PLoS One)[/SIZE]
"After receiving hundreds of postmarketing adverse event reports of suicidal thoughts or behaviors (and 32 completed suicides) associated with smoking cessation drug varenicline (Chantix), the FDA slapped a black box warning on the med in 2009 and commissioned two large retrospective observational studies totaling more than 40,000 patients starting either varenicline (Chantix) or nicotine replacement. Those studies showed no difference in psychiatric hospitalizations in the 30-day window after therapy initiation with either treatment. But those events were rare -- only 72 hospitalizations -- and the study didn't capture suicide, depression, aggression, or assaults not resulting in hospitalization."

"We found that Chantix is associated with more suicidal behavior reports than any other smoking-cessation drug on the U.S. market. The risks simply outweigh the benefits," Furberg said."
The only scientific fact is that smoking cessation is healthy
How would explain your stance that Chantix is healthy and superior to vaping to the families of those completed suicides?

You really want to ban vaping and give this to kids? Really? This is what the FDA and Big Pharma want and the narrative you have associated yourself with.
Supporting a drug that is known to lead to suicide to be given to youth is the epitome of irresponsibility

back to
Something is certain about this and that is that vaping is not safe, it is "safer" than smoking
You have stated vaping is safer. Adult's have the right to choose so lets bring this back to the core issue of youth:

"If these frequent-cig users are mostly already smokers or likely to become smokers, then this may be the start of them switching away from smoking – and therefore it could be beneficial for public health (and we have seen rapid declines in adolescent smoking as vaping has risen). From previous studies, we know that frequent vaping is almost entirely concentrated in young people who smoke or use other tobacco products. Less than one in one thousand young people had become frequent vapers having never used tobacco before. And even in these cases, we do not know what this tiny minority would have done in the absence of e-cigarettes – possibly gone on to smoke."

(see previous post for more this)

https://www.clivebates.com/the-great-american-youth-vaping-epidemic-really/#1
https://antithrlies.com/2018/09/30/sunday-science-lesson-calling-vaping-tobacco-use-an-epidemic-its-even-stupider-than-you-might-think/
 
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James00007

TS Booster
If you think you have anything more than the flat-earth grade unscientific nonsense & fearmongering from last time we had this debate you are mistaken.

*BLACK MARKET* CANNABIS/WEED - THC OIL - VAPE PENS - BONGS - DABBING
Report Properly NOW. People dying. *NOT* from LEGAL products.

You really need to get away from these flat earth grade sources that you frequent. They are making/keeping you stupid.


People are still getting sick & dying because the gullible, the media & even public health groups (including CDC) have been generalising with just "vaping" causing people to think legal products are causing this (no evidence) instead of accurately and explicitly warning against the use of *BLACK MARKET" THC products. Think about that in your next headline/post. CDC is liable for this & so is the media.


ILLICIT THC vape carts obtained from a number of case patients that were tested in federal & state laboratories have tested positive for vitamin E acetate, an OIL that just started to be used late last year as a thickening agent in BOOTLEG THC vape carts.
https://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/09/alert-major-breakthrough-in.html


Lung Disease Outbreak Caused by Black Market, not Vaping
https://cei.org/blog/lung-disease-outbreak-caused-black-market-not-vaping


https://omny.fm/shows/ccc/jeff-stier-busting-the-latest-vaping-myths


Big problem with journalist ethics & critical thinking. - Prof R Polosa
We really need to be very careful with hyping these headlines & pointing the accusing fingers towards vaping products. - Prof R Polosa




Emotional & irrational hysteria in the US about the “vaping-related” (or cannabis-related?) lung disease goes far beyond confirmation bias

It would not be a hyperbole to characterize the reactions, announcements, and statements of some authorities, regulators and scientists as hysterical. There is no doubt that they are emotional, inaccurate and without any scientific and epidemiological basis.
- Dr K Farsalinos
http://www.ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/whats-new/2019/274-us-lung


"CDC & Health Groups' Bias Against E-Cigarettes is Putting Kids' Lives at Risk" - Prof M Siegel
https://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/08/in-my-view-cdc-and-health-groups-bias.html


Response by Michigan governor: Send 98% of the quality controlled, highly regulated & life-saving industry to the black market & get into unwinnable litigations with taxpayer money while the people she governs drink lead-contaminated water.


Here is a sane, credible science-based stance for you to think about:

Public Health England Director of Health Improvement John Newton describes e-cigarettes as 95% less harmful than cigarettes. He says it would be "tragic" if people kept smoking cigarettes because they haven't tried vaping.
 

captaincranky

TechSpot Addict
@James00007 You rant, you rave, you pontificate, you drone on ad infinitum. The trouble with that is, the longer you preach, the emptier the church becomes. I've been sick of listening to you since page one of this thread. I'm frankly surprised you don't get sick of listening to yourself.

While we do granted, dabble in current affairs and politics, this is primarily a technology oriented site. That being said, you, as the chief, eternally nagging, and most long winded proponent e-cigarettes, long ago wore out your welcome.

If you even took a shot at another topic once in a while, you might be worth keeping around, if only to ignore.

My last, (and IMO best), suggestion to you is go play on a YouTube channel, write your congressman, see if Kickstarter will fund you as a vaping lobbyist. You can't achieve anything here, beyond annoying the living crap out of everyone with which you come into contact.

You seem to be suffering a perennial fantasy that if you run your mouth long enough and hard enough, a hoard of Techspot members will rally around your vapor cloud, and charge off to do battle with those mean, nasty, establishment types you so vehemently disagree with. Trust me, in its entirety, that is nothing more or less, than a massively overblown delusion of grandeur.
 
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James00007

TS Booster
There will be no back and forth with you this time @captaincranky. You were utterly incapable of making valid arguments on this subject to support your strange, argue for the sake of it, but make no real point replies last time & no reason to believe this time will be any different especially with that post. Your penchant for launching personal insults, ad hominem attacks, false privilege / suggestions of unwritten requirements of this public forum, calls for censorship of accurate information & frankly disgusting combative attitude is not helpful and have earnt you a permanent ignore.
 
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cliffordcooley

TS Redneck
If you think you have anything more than the flat-earth grade unscientific nonsense & fearmongering from last time we had this debate you are mistaken.
I don't have to. The people that research for these bans speak for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaping_bans_in_the_United_States

There are reasons for the bans. That is enough to support my stance. And the health effects listed in my last comment prove, I wasn't wrong in my argument all those months ago. You are the one with the "flat-earth grade unscientific nonsense".
 

captaincranky

TechSpot Addict
There will be no back and forth with you this time @captaincranky. You were utterly incapable of making valid arguments on this subject to support your strange, argue for the sake of it, but make no real point replies last time & no reason to believe this time will be any different especially with that post. Your penchant for launching personal insults, ad hominem attacks, false privilege / suggestions of unwritten requirements of this public forum, calls for censorship of accurate information & frankly disgusting combative attitude is not helpful and have earnt you a permanent ignore.
There's a problem, the "ignore list" (IIRC) only blocks my comments from you, not your comments from me. It's sort of like you putting your hands over your ears an going "la, la,la,la, and so on, every time I speak.

Any of what you've written "this time", (which is a euphemism for "every time"), is the same old sh!t you've written over and over, and over again , but this is not a "vaping form", and it certainly isn't "your vaping forum".

Endless repetition from the same individual, can't be called anything bur "endless repetitive nonsense". You make the same point time and time again. Even agreeing with you won't shut you up.

As long as ecigarette manufacturers don't market to children, they're fine with me. Nor should they be blamed for people using the product in combination with illegal substances. If those individuals get sick, that's on them. Extreme potheads are annoying and generally useless to society anyway. And while recreational marijuana is legal in several states, I don't know as THC is legal as the concentrated liquid form. That said, I lack sympathy for whomever might sicken themselves by their own irresponsibility.

But any shyster personal injury lawyer will try to convince a judge and jury, that any person is in no way responsible for their own actions, and a company bears the burden of guilt. Hell;, they'll tell a court that even though you were walking on the tracks, it's the train's fault for hitting you.

There's almost no such thing as, "individual behavior" in contemporary society. Everything an "individual" does, is in someway predicated on the behaviors of their parents and their peers.

Any of what we consider social ills and addictions can be controlled by personal choice and restraint. So "do what you want, just don't do it too often".

As for proposed bans on vaping, you're fighting the media, whose vultures swoop in to capture each and every falling tear they can for ratings. They're YOUR problem, not us. So go fight the real battle, which wasn't started by any of us. Techspot doesn't have anything close to the audience of the CBS (or any network's) Evening News. Why waste you breath here? Could it be because we're the only people who, (for some reason that mystifies me), continue to tolerate you, whereas you've alienated everyone else?
 
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