You finding them equally annoying doesn't mean they're equal in any other way. And yes, I'm arguing about the differences, precisely because of the position you and others are taking. I have no need nor desire to 'concede that we are better off without either'. What does better mean in that context? And for whom? And who gets to decide the answers to those two questions? Ignoring vaping for a moment, is total prohibition of tobacco better for the individual who likes smoking? Better for the farmer who relies on the crop? Better for the government who get massive tax income from it that pays for other aspects of civil life? Some points are cut-and-dry - yes, it's much healthier not to smoke than it is to smoke, that's a non-debate, but some people recognise that we only get one life and if you enjoy doing something, it's your choice to do it; to hell with the personal consequences.