So you only have PCI slots and want to game?

In reference to all the 3dmark scores, Ive gone through a lot of experimenting with the physx, found out that in 3dmark physics processing is done via the cpu, not the gpu. I'm not sure how the technology works, haven't read into it much. But it has a lot to do with the cpu taking some of the load as well as your vga, giving a little headway for more fps.
 
teklord said:
That card is 64-bit it is not as powerful as a 9500GT PCI which is not as powerful as say a GeForce 6200 PCI-e, I would estimate. Glad I went AGP temporarily.
Click to expand...

Nah, the 8400GS on PCI is more powerful than the 6200 on the PCI-E. That's not to say that both don't suck.

Any card more powerful than the 8400GS is pretty much wasted on the PCI. The HD4350 suffers from performance degradation on PCI-E x1, and that slot doesn't share a bus with other components in the system, and has almost twice the bandwidth of PCI.

The 9500GT PCI is completely useless and is a waste of money. Nice to see another card for PCI from the red camp, but there really is no need for any more cards for PCI. Those that exist are far more than enough.

As for Tha General's wish to waste a quad core and yet more money on more useless cards - It is his funeral.....and with this new card, it is HIS funeral, indeed.
 
Well i have made up my choice and here is what is going to happen:

With my main rig i have now, i am buying a 9800GT by BFG and a 4670.
And for my secondary rig which i plan to buy later this year, i plan to buy a 4350 PCI(not the HIS, because it does not have a fan) and a Albatron 8600GT.

Peace :)
 
Yukikaze said:
...Any card more powerful than the 8400GS is pretty much wasted on the PCI.
Click to expand...

I used to have the Sparkle 8500GT PCI and that was way more powerful than the FX 5500 PCI I still have. Somehow, the faster cards are doing more on that tiny 133 mb/sec shared bandwidth channel that is PCI, I don't know how. 9500GT is not a waste IMO, but the returns are definitely diminished because of the bandwidth bottleneck. I recommend the 9500GT to all PCI only users but know that PCI is way slower than PCI-e or even AGP.

As for the General stating he will get a 9800GT, well that is simply beautiful IMO. He drives everyone on the internet nuts with his love for PCI cards, so it's good to see that he is at least considering a mid range PCI-e card. I recommend at least a 9800GTX+/250 GTS for you General. GTX 260 can be had for less than $150 after rebates and that probably won't be bottlenecked at all by PCI-e 1.1 or 1.0 slots. Hope to get a couple GTX 260's myself and SLi them for use in 1920x1200. Also plan on using them several years after obtaining them. ;)
 
teklord said:
I used to have the Sparkle 8500GT PCI and that was way more powerful than the FX 5500 PCI I still have.
Click to expand...

Okay, agreed, but what does the FX5500 have to do with the 8400GS and 9500GT ?

The 9500GT might be more powerful, but paying what, twice, three times more ? For a measly 10-20% performance ? This is silly. This is why the 9500GT PCI makes no sense over the 8400GS. Both suck, but at least one costs around 50$ and not a 100$.
 
Yukikaze said:
Okay, agreed, but what does the FX5500 have to do with the 8400GS and 9500GT ?

The 9500GT might be more powerful, but paying what, twice, three times more ? For a measly 10-20% performance ? This is silly. This is why the 9500GT PCI makes no sense over the 8400GS. Both suck, but at least one costs around 50$ and not a 100$.
Click to expand...

The 8500GT had at least 7 times the FPS in ATITool that the FX 5500 PCI did. That still is like at least seven times less than what I see with my AGP HD 3850 in ATITool FPS, but for PCI that is nice to see. I expect 9500GT PCI would be a significant improvement over the 8500GT PCI in FPS, but at 20-25% of what the PCI-e can display.

Yes, the price is about twice as much as what the FX 5500 PCI is but I think it is worth it if you are stuck with PCI. You have a valid point that the price does not match performance, my HD 3850 AGP cost about $100 also which is why I swapped my mobo to get it instead of settling for the 9500GT PCI at that price.
 
teklord said:
As for the General stating he will get a 9800GT, well that is simply beautiful IMO.
Click to expand...

Well i already said i have to move on to PCIE cards with my main rig , because i only have one pci slot and its meant obviously for a sound card. But for the secondary rig, i am sticking with PCI cards.

teklord said:
I recommend at least a 9800GTX+/250 GTS for you General.
Click to expand...

I am not into crossfire or SLI and all that stuff, and i will never buy a high end card, because they required connectors. I am a low profile to mid range non power connector type of person.

teklord said:
Hope to get a couple GTX 260's myself and SLi them for use in 1920x1200. Also plan on using them several years after obtaining them. ;)
Click to expand...

That should last you for about the next 5 years. :)
 
Tha General said:
I am not into crossfire or SLI and all that stuff, and i will never buy a high end card, because they required connectors. I am a low profile to mid range non power connector type of person.
Click to expand...

The 9800GTX+/250 GTS is only one card. They are the same card released by nVidia with a different name, 9800GTX+ first then 250 GTS later. I believe the 9800GT has a power connector, so I suggested the 9800GTX+ which is close to the same price.

Tha General said:
That should last you for about the next 5 years. :)
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking, my E8400 or E8500 plus GTX 260 in SLi would last a long time and if the CPU started to bottleneck, I could put a quad core in the LGA 775 slot. Because of my ongoing heavy financial obligations, I am thankful I could get the HD 3850 for my P4, so I will probably use that for quite a while hopefully.
 
teklord said:
I believe the 9800GT has a power connector, so I suggested the 9800GTX+ which is close to the same price.
Click to expand...

There are 9800GT versions without a power connector, but most of the 9800GT cards do have one. The fastest card out there for which the reference board by the manufacturer has no extra power connector is the HD4670 1Gb, but there are versions of the HD4830, 9600GT and 9800GT without power connectors.
 
Question:

I OC my 8400GS memory to 400, from 333 and i plan to keep it there, now i have 6.3 bandwidth from 5.3, so its 567/400. Would increasing the memory to 400 damage the card?
Temps on the card is the same OC too, 47c, only shoots up to 59 when playing games.

I also plan to set it back to the default before i shut off my computer.
 
Tha General said:
Question:

I OC my 8400GS memory to 400, from 333 and i plan to keep it there, now i have 6.3 bandwidth from 5.3, so its 567/400. Would increasing the memory to 400 damage the card?
Temps on the card is the same OC too, 47c, only shoots up to 59 when playing games.

I also plan to set it back to the default before i shut off my computer.
Click to expand...

Damaging something in an overclock which does not involve voltage modifications (Either soft or hard) is very, very, very, very, very rare. Increasing clocks does not result in any significant heat increase (Increasing voltage does, on the other hand) and the worst thing that is likely to happen is the card becoming unstable and crashing the system or producing artifacts until the clocks are lowered to an acceptable level.

In short - You are not likely to damage the card.
 
Tha General said:
Would increasing the memory to 400 damage the card?
Click to expand...

IMO, anytime you OC(overclock) anything, be it the CPU,GPU,MEM,etc, you are adding stress to the predetermined limits set by the manufacturer. The added stress means a shorter overall lifespan of that particular component but if you intend to replace it in a few years, like 5 or so, then OC isn't so bad. I quit OC'ing my CPU because I couldn't adjust the voltage in my BIOS and I was getting bad errors like my PC not turning on and I thought I killed it through OC.(glad I didn't)

You aren't adding much OC to your GPU, so I don't think it is that harmful IMO. It's a good idea to revert to stock settings after exiting applications like games to help preserve the card as much as possible IMO. PCI cards are just a tad on the underpowered side, so overclocking is advised on my part, just be smart how you do it and don't fry your card. Go slow and use ATITool to find your max OC before artifacts appear.

It's important to monitor GPU temps as well, so using SpeedFan & Riva Tuner to make sure your case,CPU, & GPU temps are respectable helps me a lot. I also have decent case cooling since I installed an exhaust fan and you might consider that also if you want to add more OC.

I flashed my HD 3850 AGP BIOS and adjusted the 2D clock & voltage to match the 3D clock and voltage as well. This helps me run console emulators much better since they don't recognize the card in 3D mode. I don't advise flashing your BIOS since you are a new OC'er but this is an example of what I am doing and can be done.
 
Well i only oc the memory to 400 to get 6.3, doesn't make that much difference, just a small boost. I am not really looking to get a boost tho, because the 8400gs does just fine in games, i just wanted to be 400 because it looks stupid at 333 LMFAO. The evga version has the memory at 500, not sure if i am going to do that , but i might just to see what happens.

Also i use evga precision. :)

Btw, are you really saving up to do SLI? or you plan to buy or build a new rig soon?
 
Tha General said:
Btw, are you really saving up to do SLI? or you plan to buy or build a new rig soon?
Click to expand...

I'm not saving any money at all because of my ongoing financial obligations like I mentioned before, hence my appreciation of the HD 3850 AGP. Hope to go SLi or Crossfire with a mobo that doesn't downscale the PCI-e 2.0 bus when it uses two GPUs.

You should be okay at 500 MHz I predict as long as you have a decent PSU and solid internal cooling is important also.

Wanted to mention the Street Fighter IV benchmark. I ran that and that game looks unbelievable. That game will look and run better on a lot of people's PC's than the original version. Ran close to console quality on my legacy system.
 
That is a good price for that card. Jaton version is slightly more powerful with 50 MHz more in Shader Clock. Can't do anything but retro game with either one.
 
This is a sad, sad price. Granted, this is a PCI card, but the 9600GSO (96 shaders, not the 48 shader version) 384Mb GDDR3 is on the egg for 35$ after MIR.

For well under 100$ you could get a new motherboard and that card.

With prices as they are, PCI is really only for specialty applications and weird fetishes.

For 136$ after MIR off the egg you can get:

ASUS EN9600GSO/HTDP/384M GeForce 9600 GSO 384MB 192-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card - Retail
Item #: N82E16814121319

Free Game: Nvidia Gift Call of duty - World at war - OEM

Rendition by Crucial 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Desktop Memory Model RM12864AA667 - Retail
Item #: N82E16820148240

BIOSTAR G31D-M7 LGA 775 Intel G31 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Item #: N82E16813138142

Intel Celeron E1400 Allendale 2.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80557E1400 - Retail
Item #: N82E16819116069

The above murders any P4 based system, pretty much. Not to mention this can be turned into a complete system for under 200W. Paying 80$+ for a PCI video card just makes no sense unless the application is something really special.
 
teklord said:
Can't do anything but retro game with either one.
Click to expand...

Specs to the upper right, using my BFG 8400gs, no OC/stock settings.
http://gpuz.techpowerup.com/09/06/17/cak.png
175.16 drivers(best drivers ever for this card)



Crysis Warhead 1280x1024 AAX2, low to medium settings to gamer settings(physics is only on gamer ) a solid 16-24fps. Now also keep in mind, i have everything in the CP at high quality with AA settings turn on, not to mention everything at its highest quality with nvidia tray tools install also.

Now teklord, if i had the 9500gt, i am sure i can play warhead with the same settings and hit 25-35fps. Playable, so retro gaming? i wouldn't think so, unless you want 60fps or more or something.
 
Yukikaze said:
This is a sad, sad price.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree it is overpriced but it isn't quite a $100 dollars which is headed the right way IMO.

Yukikaze said:
For well under 100$ you could get a new motherboard and that card.
Click to expand...

The problem with the old "PCI-e setup for the PCI cards' value" argument is that the PCI-e setup is underpowered and not what you really want in a setup. Plus, if you are building from the ground up with no parts like the case or PSU to use, then you have to factor that in as well. If you are using a OEM PC, then you are going to have a beast of a time swapping the mobo because they all have security measures to keep you from doing that. I got around that by swapping for a mobo with the same chipset as the old one but I had to settle for AGP and if got a PCI-e board then I would have hit "Code Purple", plus buy more components which still weren't what I really wanted in my next gen PC. The PCI cards are overpriced, no question about it, but they serve a purpose to the people who didn't know or understand what they were buying and want a stopgap solution that is easy to understand to the technically uninitiated.

As for the General's infamous benchmark's, everyone that reads his posts pretty much agree that the FPS he gets are not what they want to settle for in their gameplay. If I can't average 30 FPS, I can really see the choppiness, so 30+ FPS avg is my personal goal, which I doubt Tha General sees much of. I heartily congratulate him for getting the FPS he does because like others have pointed out, that is absolutely stupendous on his PC setups, especially the claims he made on his old PIII.
 
Some of the old PIII, particularly IBM Intellistations and Thinkpads, and high end Dell Optiplex and Dimensions, had better performance than their P4... it took nearly two years for P4 to catch up on those with the better boards... it proved that the CPU wasn't as important as people thought.
 
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