Swappable batteries in EVs aren't feasible, but a big breakthrough could change the game

[Shawn Knight]

The big picture: We've said it before and we'll say it again: by hook or by crook, automakers are on track to phase out gas-powered vehicles and replace them with all-electric models. Arguments abound over whether or not enough raw materials exist to back the transition or if the charging infrastructure can be built in time to support some states' deadlines for zero-emission vehicle sales. One possible solution to help mitigate the charging conundrum would be swappable batteries but willing it into reality would be a very tall order.

In Taiwan where two-wheeled scooters are prevalent, the transition is already well under way. Gogoro has successfully developed and deployed a network of battery-swapping depots that "are as common as gas stations." The facilities collectively support nearly 400,000 battery swaps each day. According to the Taiwanese government, 12 percent of all scooters sold locally in 2022 were electric and 90 percent of them utilized Gogoro batteries.

Rather than having to sit around and wait while their scooters' electric batteries are topped off at a charger, customers can simply swap out battery modules on their own and be on their way. Think of it like the propane tank exchange centers at your local gas station, except for batteries.

It sounds convenient enough, but there's one big difference that'll likely sideline the concept of swappable batteries in many regions.

The battery systems that power full-size cars and trucks are exponentially larger and heavier than those used in electric scooters. According to CarParts, most EV batteries weigh around 1,000 pounds but heavier ones can tip the scales at closer to 2,000 pounds. GM's Hummer EV battery pack weighs nearly 3,000 pounds, outweighing some compact vehicles.

A service center would be needed for full-size swaps and it'd probably take more time to do the work than you'd have spent tethered to a charger, thus defeating the purpose entirely.

There's also the proprietary nature of car and truck batteries. Companies like GM have spent lots of money to build their Ultium battery platform. Getting automakers to agree on a universal, swappable standard at this stage of the game feels virtually impossible.

Modularity looks great on paper but as we've seen time and again in the tech industry, it rarely translates to the real world. Swappable batteries in full-size vehicles won't even be worth considering until breakthroughs deliver significant reductions in size and weight. We've heard about a lot of promising advancements in the lab but for now, we're still waiting on a big game changer.

Permalink to story.

https://www.techspot.com/news/97746-swappable-batteries-evs-arent-feasible-but-big-breakthrough.html

 

[psycros]

"A service center would be needed for full-size swaps and it'd probably take more time to do the work than you'd have spent tethered to a charger, thus defeating the purpose entirely."

Yes, unless you design the vehicles to facilitate battery change-outs. A light electric fork truck could easily pop in new batteries if there were external sockets. When I was kid we had a car whose gas tank cap was behind the rear license plate. Perhaps we could have cars with a hinged rear bumper and hide the battery sockets behind it. Of course, just using hydrogen is a far better option.

 

[Vrmithrax]

It's too bad Better Place didn't gain more traction, it was a very interesting concept that proved you could swap batteries in vehicles if things were planned correctly. They had a car design (with Renault I believe?) that had a battery that could drop down out of the bottom of the car, and you could drive into an automated facility that would swap the battery so you were back on the road within minutes. The facility was a bit like driving into an automatic car wash. They were thinking about this in 2000-something, even did pilot testing programs in Israel and other locations, but ultimately went bankrupt in 2013 or so. Maybe a case of an idea too far ahead of its time? The challenge of establishing infrastructure was one of the big killers, and now suddenly everyone is interested in "all electric all the time" and infrastructure is on the radar...

 

[koblongata]

I want 4 Gogoro battery mini cars

 

[scavengerspc]

For me, I see quick and easy battery swapping as an answer for when the battery finally wears out, not for each use cycle. Not until they are much, much smaller. Of course, by then we will see alternative ways to keep the electric motors running. Hydrogen, as mentioned by @psycros, or an SSB.

 

[Jack77]

Doesn't the Chinese brand Nio have a network of battery swap stations for its cars?

 

[BadThad]

Trying to force people to buy and use electric cars/trucks is NOT sustainable with our current power infrastructure. They are absolutely trying to cram them down our throats without having the underlaying support structure. GET READY FOR ROLLING BLACKOUTS! Especially in light of the disillusioned, leftist greenies push to eliminate ANY fossil fuel generation - ignorance of the highest order and one way to bankrupt America - China rejoices!

 

[hahahanoobs]

I can only expect North American companies to wait until the last possible second or later before doing something meaningful for the masses.

 

[brunocasarini]

"Zero carbon emission" is a fantasy: https://www.prageru.com/video/a-zero-carbon-world-by-2035-is-a-multi-trillion-dollar-pipe-dream.

Besides that, if I can't swap the battery of a smartphone, I'll probably be long gone before car manufacturers agree on a swappable battery standard.

 

[Lew Zealand]

"Zero carbon emission" is a fantasy: https://www.prageru.com/video/a-zero-carbon-world-by-2035-is-a-multi-trillion-dollar-pipe-dream.

Besides that, if I can't swap the battery of a smartphone, I'll probably be long gone before car manufacturers agree on a swappable battery standard.

This article said nothing about a zero carbon emission world by 2035. But I get it: it's fun tilting against imaginary windmills like PU likes to do.

While I'm sure there are a few dreamers out there who think the world can do that, nobody with actual power or influence does. But hey, those scarelines gets the clicks that PU needs.

 

[Lounds]

"A service center would be needed for full-size swaps and it'd probably take more time to do the work than you'd have spent tethered to a charger, thus defeating the purpose entirely."

Yes, unless you design the vehicles to facilitate battery change-outs. A light electric fork truck could easily pop in new batteries if there were external sockets. When I was kid we had a car whose gas tank cap was behind the rear license plate. Perhaps we could have cars with a hinged rear bumper and hide the battery sockets behind it. Of course, just using hydrogen is a far better option.

Hydrogen is not the future... Yet.
Currently the maths aren't math'n.
Listened to this podcast where one of the top professors in the UK breaks down the financial costs and the science behind hydrogen production and how it works currently and how it might happen but overall it basically isn't cost effective.
Don't believe the green smearing the big oil energy producers are doing saying hydrogen is the future for energy production.

 

[dangh]

Doesn't the Chinese brand Nio have a network of battery swap stations for its cars?

They do, but as well it is proprietary technology only for them. And their cars are looking good, but safety is just awful.

 

[someOtherGuy]

It's too bad Better Place didn't gain more traction, it was a very interesting concept that proved you could swap batteries in vehicles if things were planned correctly. They had a car design (with Renault I believe?) that had a battery that could drop down out of the bottom of the car, and you could drive into an automated facility that would swap the battery so you were back on the road within minutes. The facility was a bit like driving into an automatic car wash. They were thinking about this in 2000-something, even did pilot testing programs in Israel and other locations, but ultimately went bankrupt in 2013 or so. Maybe a case of an idea too far ahead of its time? The challenge of establishing infrastructure was one of the big killers, and now suddenly everyone is interested in "all electric all the time" and infrastructure is on the radar...

The problem with this concept is the value: the battery is a MAJOR part of the value in your vehicle, that you'd be swapping every time you "re-charge". Battery "depots" would hold millions of dollars in batteries at any given time, which would suggest you'd better add security to protect that value or risk losing a lot of money from a modest heist (from the depot owner/manager point of view), increasing the cost of doing business (over an already competitively thin profit margin).

 

[DukeJukem]

You do realize if we move to all electric vehicles the government can flip a switch and turn all of our cars off right? probably not a good idea.

 

[Lew Zealand]

You do realize if we move to all electric vehicles the government can flip a switch and turn all of our cars off right? probably not a good idea.

That sounds almost like gas rationing. But governments wouldn't do that to our ICE vehicles, would they?

 

[ChrisH1]

Tesla built their cars to support it. There was a working viable station that did this, in about 5 minutes, you drove over it and one battery was removed and another put in. It was cancelled, as basically it wasn't important enough to people to make it viable. A weakness was, you had to come back and get your battery because it's almost impossible to work out what condition each battery is in, and you'd need to know to charge/credit people for the difference.

EVs can have a range of up to 500km these days, and the number of people who want to do much more in one trip, and are seriously inconvenienced by needing to stop for a break, possibly even one as long as a lunch break, is tiny as a percentage, and they are 'contained', I.e. they probably *always* want to do it, whereas most people will *never* fall into that category. (Commercial trucks possibly different.)

 

[Vrmithrax]

The problem with this concept is the value: the battery is a MAJOR part of the value in your vehicle, that you'd be swapping every time you "re-charge". Battery "depots" would hold millions of dollars in batteries at any given time, which would suggest you'd better add security to protect that value or risk losing a lot of money from a modest heist (from the depot owner/manager point of view), increasing the cost of doing business (over an already competitively thin profit margin).

That was a part of the business model. The cars could be produced very inexpensively, without a battery, since the battery is typically one of the largest components to the cost of an EV. The company (Better Place) was essentially a services provider - they maintained the battery stock and supply, and the consumer basically paid a "subscription" fee for access to the charging infrastructure and the battery swap system. The cost was intended to be substantially less than comparable internal combustion fuel and maintenance costs.

Not saying it was perfect, there would be a pretty hefty up front investment into the battery stock and establishment of the charging/swapping locations, but the idea was to take the biggest "consumable" in the EV out of the equation for the average consumer, and give a theoretically more efficient method of providing range to the vehicles (swap and go on the fly, vs stop and charge and wait). The other advantage was that as battery tech improved, the batteries could potentially be upgraded and old units phased out.

Anyhow, it was a very interesting concept, obviously had some flaws, but just shows that someone was thinking about this 15 years ago... And that was before places like California spearheaded mandates (which many are following suit) that all new vehicles would have to be electric by 2035. The infrastructure is not there to support that mandate, but it's not the first time governments have put the cart before the horse. Concepts like Better Place were at least trying to redesign how the horse was made first

 

[mrvco]

Didn't Tesla attempt replaceable batteries early on and realize it wasn't practical?

Regardless, the answer is "Battery Trailers" that charge the onboard batteries through a 2" receiver hitch while driving and can be easily and quickly swapped out at roadside depot's that service and recharge the battery trailers.

 

[hahahanoobs]

The problem with this concept is the value: the battery is a MAJOR part of the value in your vehicle, that you'd be swapping every time you "re-charge". Battery "depots" would hold millions of dollars in batteries at any given time, which would suggest you'd better add security to protect that value or risk losing a lot of money from a modest heist (from the depot owner/manager point of view), increasing the cost of doing business (over an already competitively thin profit margin).

What is some of your source material for all these what-ifs about EV batteries? I'm curious.

 

[scavengerspc]

And the infrastructure for Battery-powered cars will be the same: different approaches to solving different aspects of similar problems. And we'll do it sooner or we'll do it later. It'll just cost more if we wait 'til later.

Myth buster: Electric vehicles will overload the power grid | Virta

Some argue that EVs will make the grid unstable, which could mean hefty investments. Facts and data show why they are wrong.

www.virta.global

"Fact: If 80% of all passenger cars become electric, this would lead to a total increase of 10-15% in electricity consumption."

 

[Theinsanegamer]

The problem with this concept is the value: the battery is a MAJOR part of the value in your vehicle, that you'd be swapping every time you "re-charge". Battery "depots" would hold millions of dollars in batteries at any given time, which would suggest you'd better add security to protect that value or risk losing a lot of money from a modest heist (from the depot owner/manager point of view), increasing the cost of doing business (over an already competitively thin profit margin).

hot swappable batteries are not financially feasible.

Having batteries that can be easily swapped down the line, however, make perfect sense given the lifespan of cars and the supposed "environmental" impacts we're aiming for.

Business and money will find a way.

We dont need billions in research to know how to make a sustainable grid. We already have the tech. Nuclear energy. It is not technology that is stopping its rollout, it is NIMBYism by the same kind of people that love to prostrate for their favorite social causes on social media. Bureaucratic nightmares are holding back a modern grid.

We, demonstrably, have issues with the grid RIGHT NOW. If widespread EVs are the future, this needs fixed NOW.

Myth buster: Electric vehicles will overload the power grid | Virta

Some argue that EVs will make the grid unstable, which could mean hefty investments. Facts and data show why they are wrong.

www.virta.global

"Fact: If 80% of all passenger cars become electric, this would lead to a total increase of 10-15% in electricity consumption."

Funny, given that california and texas already cant keep their grids online without blackouts and the EU energy costs have skyrocketed from lack of natural gas from russia, all while "enviromental" parties push for the shutdown of nuclear plants and widespread use of solar panels as replacements, which have resulted in germany going back to coal power.

Something tells me those numbers dont add up. Much like the "experts" that were consistently proven wrong the last three years, I see no reason to trust these guys either.

 

[wiyosaya]

For me, I see quick and easy battery swapping as an answer for when the battery finally wears out, not for each use cycle. Not until they are much, much smaller. Of course, by then we will see alternative ways to keep the electric motors running. Hydrogen, as mentioned by @psycros, or an SSB.

The problem with Hydrogen production is that currently, most commercial hydrogen production is made from fossil fuels and is actually dirtier than gasoline. https://www.autoblog.com/2021/08/12/hydrogen-study/

There is research out there that promises much cleaner hydrogen production in the future. Unfortunately, none of that is in current production.

As well, there are efforts out there that are using different materials other than Li-on tech. One in particular, promises to be substantially cleaner and offer other advantages over Li-on, but it is not out of its trial phase yet. https://graphenemg.com/battery-pilot-plant/ and other articles about the tech. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michae...imes-faster-than-lithium-ion/?sh=5bc3a5ee6d28
https://www.afr.com/companies/energ...times-faster-than-lithium-ion-20220808-p5b84s
The thing that I find interesting about swappable batteries is that it might just be a temporary solution which would ultimately be abandoned due to other emerging battery chemistries, processes, et. al.

.

We dont need billions in research to know how to make a sustainable grid. We already have the tech. Nuclear energy. It is not technology that is stopping its rollout, it is NIMBYism by the same kind of people that love to prostrate for their favorite social causes on social media. Bureaucratic nightmares are holding back a modern grid.

We, demonstrably, have issues with the grid RIGHT NOW. If widespread EVs are the future, this needs fixed NOW.

While your assessment is dramatic, people that have been studying this issue for at least a decade are not in agreement with you in terms of immediate need. https://www.pnnl.gov/news-media/influx-electric-vehicles-accelerates-need-grid-planning

The good news is that through 2028, the overall power system, from generation through transmission, looks healthy up to 24 million EVs—about 9% of the current light-duty vehicle traffic in the U.S.

The picture is not that sweet everywhere, however, this particular report does not suggest using nuclear. Its great to have gigantic power sources capable of producing enormous amounts of power, however, the report suggests that the need is more in the distribution portion of the grid rather in generation capabilities.

However, at about 30 million EVs, things get dicey. At the local level, issues may arise at even smaller EV adoption numbers. That’s because one fast-charging EV can draw as much load as up to 50 homes. If, for example, every house in a cul-de-sac has an EV, one power transformer won’t be able to handle multiple EVs charging at the same time.

Another article - https://www.bing.com/search?q=pnnl+2006+phev+grid+capabilities+75%+of+light+duty+vehicles&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&ghc=1&lq=0&pq=pnnl+2006+phev+grid+capabilities+75%+of+light+duty+vehicles&sc=3-59&sk=&cvid=7781D458C01B43A3BC30C9919132F053&ghsh=0&ghacc=0&ghpl=

Previous work has shown that the existing US generation and transmission infrastructures have the
technical potential to supply power to 73% of the U.S. light duty vehicle (LDV) fleet [1]. The level of 73% is a
national average, with the actual values varying significantly by regions. Because of the large regional
differences in the generation mix across the US and the varying available electricity capacity to accommodate the new transportation load, a very detailed analysis was performed that studied at high temporal and regional
resolution the likely grid impacts of defensible penetration scenario in the US for the 2030.

Its fine and dandy to make dire predictions without sufficient knowledge, however, whether you trust them or not, I think their predictions are likely much more accurate than yours.

And then, on top of this, there is how seriously those in power are going to take the issue - given that most automobile/truck manufacturers are now on board with switching production to EVs.

Obviously, even though many do not agree with it, the current administration is taking steps to implement a basal distribution network. Unfortunately, if its administration based, it is subject to whims, fallacies, and junk science that some administrations extol - while everyone else touts doing the same things over and over again, and by hope and prayers, expects different results.

 

[wiyosaya]

While not yet demonstrated commercially, there are those working towards it. IMO, this is very exciting and MAY lead to a commercially feasible fusion reactor - https://phys.org/news/2023-02-hydrogen-boron-fusion-magnetically-confined-plasma.html

Then again, that's my "hopes and prayers." At least they are not doing the same things over and over and expecting different results.

 

[wiyosaya]

And one more note, if these go anywhere - http://www.skeletontech.com/ultracapacitor-technology Say good by to batteries.

Ultracapacitors or supercapacitors are an energy storage technology that offers high power density, almost instant charging and discharging, high reliability, extreme temperature tolerance, and lifetimes of more than 1,000,000 charge-discharge cycles.

The difference here - it looks like this company is already producing some of these.

 

[MakeMSGreatAgain]

In a perfect world where greed and corruption does not exist, manufacturers could certainly agree on small modules that plug into a larger car/truck that carries 20-50 of these batteries - and you could increase and decrease capacity as needed. The only real limiting factor is efficient use of space and cooling, but there are some incredibly smart engineers out there that could make it happen.

In the world we live in, companies will have to find a way to monetize and capitalize on this - and they could also do that; but they will be in full control and you the consumer, will get screwed. This is the direction all companies are headed, with everything reliant upon them and subscription based. This conflicting nature will eventually be our undoing.