What's weird is in the future, we may look back to the good old days of Li-ion battery simplicity.
Toyota's first modern EV arrives this spring starting at $42,000
- Thread starter Shawn Knight
- Start date
Ludak021
Posts: 775 +590
When you consider they do not only make personal cars for Europe and US, it's not that far-fetched
SEVENTY! models (sidenote: those two look like 1. Mercedes smart 2. honda E look-a-like) If they steal 70 designs from other manufacturers they are going to loose more money than they are going to make
PS. Europe doesn't have nearly enough charging stations for electrification by 2025. It's mostly flats in buildings here, very densely populated. We do not have private money investing in chargers since they like making money off of dinosaurs. Sure, there are houses and so on, those people are not majority. Point being: it's not like in US here, not even close.
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I wouldn't say they drive/handle the same. A Porsche Panamera does not handle like a Toyota Camry, just as a Porsche Taycan does not handle like this new Toyota EV. Suspension design matters.
shark975
Posts: 141 +179
Ev's are such a joke. to illustrate biden unilaterally ordered (unconstitutional but anyway) american industry to begin studying mining for EV battery materials under the defense production act. Environmentalists threw a fit (even just studying, no actual mining yet). Because "you cant mine on American soil"!!!
But of course we know what happens, that just means all the mining happens in China and Africa! For the EV's the same leftists DEMANDED and FORCED on us by law, not choice or the market. The same "not in my backyard" insane leftist mentality that led EU to rely heavily on Russian gas. So it's ok with white american liberals as long as only the yellow and brown people suffer I guess (not that I believing mining automatically=suffering, but these people do, so using their own logic)
But anyways yeah the fact this thing costs 40+k shows the point. EV's are way more expensive than ICE cars and there is no end in sight, Huge shortages of raw material heavy metals for the batteries (very environmentally friendly no doubt) are incoming or already here. EV's price continues to skyrocket. Besides that they are worse for the environment in multiple ways including air pollution (they are heavy, much heavier than ICE, so produce much more air polluting brake dust particulate matter into the atmosphere for example).
The net effect is everybody gets poorer. Instead of 2 cars a household might afford one, and granny misses her trip to the Doctor and dies because of lack of affordable transportation while Dad was at work, countless little casualties like that that poverty entails
But of course we know what happens, that just means all the mining happens in China and Africa! For the EV's the same leftists DEMANDED and FORCED on us by law, not choice or the market. The same "not in my backyard" insane leftist mentality that led EU to rely heavily on Russian gas. So it's ok with white american liberals as long as only the yellow and brown people suffer I guess (not that I believing mining automatically=suffering, but these people do, so using their own logic)
But anyways yeah the fact this thing costs 40+k shows the point. EV's are way more expensive than ICE cars and there is no end in sight, Huge shortages of raw material heavy metals for the batteries (very environmentally friendly no doubt) are incoming or already here. EV's price continues to skyrocket. Besides that they are worse for the environment in multiple ways including air pollution (they are heavy, much heavier than ICE, so produce much more air polluting brake dust particulate matter into the atmosphere for example).
The net effect is everybody gets poorer. Instead of 2 cars a household might afford one, and granny misses her trip to the Doctor and dies because of lack of affordable transportation while Dad was at work, countless little casualties like that that poverty entails
Nope. EVs magically are immune to battery degradation (both temporary and permanent), such as from being parked in the cold, driving in very cold weather, and from charge/depletion use.
So says a certain person here. It seems all we need is the initial range number and everything else has been erased via a triumph of scientific ingenuity!
Fearghast
Posts: 621 +572
Of course 2025 is nonsense for pure electrification, but it's Toyota, they will still have at least most of their hybrid available for sale.SEVENTY! models (sidenote: those two look like 1. Mercedes smart 2. honda E look-a-like) If they steal 70 designs from other manufacturers they are going to loose more money than they are going to make
PS. Europe doesn't have nearly enough charging stations for electrification by 2025. It's mostly flats in buildings here, very densely populated. We do not have private money investing in chargers since they like making money off of dinosaurs. Sure, there are houses and so on, those people are not majority. Point being: it's not like in US here, not even close.
2025 is most likely reality for one country - Norway, anyone else? Forget about it
Sad true is, a lot of people tend to bounce between two extremes:
I love EV's anything else stinks
I hate EV's and there is no infrastructure to support it 100%
with sparkle of politics/conspirations on top.
I like to think this topic is much more interesting, and rushing for full EV with legislation won't help anyone.
It's progress and like many others before it's messy - for example almost no EV manufacturer cares for efficiency, and we can see abysmal numbers like 25-35kWh/100 km.
This will be the next topic for "Euro" norms, when they get bored with CO2 emissions, they will try to force manufacturers to archive the highest possible efficiency ... but that's a future we will see in like 10-20 years.
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,759 +9,642
Like we have people pining for the roar of an ICE, I bet we will have people pining for something about Li-ion batteries.What's weird is in the future, we may look back to the good old days of Li-ion battery simplicity.
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,759 +9,642
Life's a b!tch and then you die. Do you check for leftists under your bed at night? Or perhaps in your closets?
If you hate EVs so much, think of something better. Oh wait, don't tell us. You believe climate change is yet another leftist conspiracy along with air pollution, acid rain, and anything else you don't like that you conviently blame on (OMG) leftists.
Those bast@rd leftists. They are the cause of all the problems in the world.
hahahanoobs
Posts: 5,213 +3,071
The US has been failing with public transportation and rail LONG before Biden. EV's are just another thing they'll drag their feet on, because coal is king and they pay the most.
The blame games are cute, but blame the right people at least.
Squid Surprise
Posts: 5,560 +5,202
Geez... haven't you heard? Everything is a Leftish conspiracy... Just you wait until we figure out that Trump really won the last election and everything will be perfect...
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,759 +9,642
I am sure someone will find a way to blame leftists for Rudy's most recent act - https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/12/politics/rudy-giuliani-phone-unlock/index.html
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,759 +9,642
wiyosaya
Posts: 9,759 +9,642
Like every new thing to hit the market, prices will drop...eventually.
Life's a b!tch and then you die. Do you check for leftists under your bed at night? Or perhaps in your closets?
If you hate EVs so much, think of something better. Oh wait, don't tell us. You believe climate change is yet another leftist conspiracy along with air pollution, acid rain, and anything else you don't like that you conviently blame on (OMG) leftists.
Those bast@rd leftists. They are the cause of all the problems in the world.
LOL - The truth is the opposite. It's Leftists who blame all the world's problems on right wingers. For example:
Racism, patriarchy, nationalism, paternalism, homophobia, sexism, nazism, chauvinism, climate change, colonialism, religious persecution, anti-vaxism, capitalism, environmental pollution, fracking and drilling problems, police violence, antisemitism, Putinism.
You can get advanced degrees in each of these areas of concern. That shows you how seriously they take them.
EVs are a result of at least four Leftists concerns: climate change, capitalism, environmental pollution, and fracking/oil. Leftist solutions invariably involve mandatory Government violation of your rights.
Squid Surprise
Posts: 5,560 +5,202
And it’s Right wing extremists who think none of those issues are a concern… long live Hitler?
None of those things matter when they are busy making things up.
No time to worry about actual concerns. And I think maybe they love Vlad more.
He will help steal an election. Similar to 2016. They need that. Without it, all they have is redistricting and voter suppression.
Their biggest fear is fair and free elections.
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Fearghast
Posts: 621 +572
Or they could be doing it the right way and not rushing it out just to be first ...
Considering their hybrids, reliability and push for low consumption/CO2 emissions even before it was legally required, I would not be surprised if Toyota did the least damage to the environment out of any car manufacturer on the globe.
Try to read/watch some of the first reviews of BZ4x, I find it difficult to find any indications it is behind the competition ... on the contrary reviews are most really positive.
Sure it makes for a long flamy discussion trying to discuss topics like lobby, diesel gate, burning EVs, loss of power on the highway, 50 litres smaller boot compared to competition ... but as cars go, this one seems decent ... at least for an SUV.
Raunchy
Posts: 57 +16
So what? Nobody said they can't pursue their own strategy. It doesn't excuse lobbying against the movement.
Fearghast
Posts: 621 +572
TBH, you are acting like you know terms of that lobby.
I honestly do not know more than they were against more incentives to hard push for EV adoption.
Which makes sense in terms of Toyota ... they make good cars, great hybrids for decades, but this does not include hybrids in the incentives.
All quotes by representatives I saw were OK. They were conservative, but even as an "EV" driver myself, I saw nothing wrong with it.
I guess that's because it is "heated" discussion in my country as well, I just chose not to be part of any extreme EV/against EV spectrum. I like the grey area, that's where people think with brain and not with heart.
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