Utah governor blames "cancer" social media for assassinations, including Charlie Kirk shooting
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Plutoisaplanet
Posts: 1,909 +2,572
That wasn’t a public debate like you said where he made up facts in order to cheat a win, and you brought no counter point for what you quoted so I’m not sure exactly what point you’re making with that.-Well, we definitely agree that people should at least read and watch what Kirk said and stood for before forming an opinion.
Kirk was very solidly in the corner of a stratified, illiberal, elitist society and pushed this viewpoint through deeply fallacious public "debates" where made up facts and looking like he'd won was more important than actually debating in good faith.
That he promoted great replacement non-sense is as good a place to start as any:
The great replacement strategy, which is well underway every single day in our southern border, is a strategy to replace white rural America with something different. Show 159, please. 80 percent of the map is red, but that is only 20 percent of the American population. They hate that they don't live in big cities. They hate those of you that live in rural and small America. They hate those of you that own land and have guns and believe in a better country, and they have a plan to try and get rid of you.
The same way that Joseph Stalin went after the kulaks, they wanna go after you.
Charlie Kirk - 3/1/24
Can watch the clip with context here:
That said, when living in California and was attending an event in the bay area, I’ve literally heard someone tell me in disdain that there are too many conservatives where I lived (the Central Valley, a largely rural area). He made it sound like it was something that needed to be changed, but it was so uncomfortable that I didn’t engage with what he said lol. I wouldn’t be surprised if he talked about it openly with me because I was around college age.
That was around 10 years ago… since I’ve personally experienced it, and politics have gotten more divisive, I wouldn’t be surprised if some people do want mass immigration in order to change the demographics where conservatives live.
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amstech
Posts: 2,801 +1,963
Mass immigration trucking millions of illegals into blue states to get votes is exactly how scummy the left is. That sh!t is over.
The only party pushing divisive behavior has been the left the last 10 years, but their recent mistake to kill Charlie Kirk has proven to be fatal. Millions and millions of voters are leaving the Democrat party, and its 100% their fault.
Shaddup with the projection nonsense no one cares about the obvious horseshit anymore.
Beerfloat
Posts: 1,225 +2,344
Debates are contests to be won, not a method to reduce unclarity and arrive at some unquestionable truth. Good debaters can argue plausibly and convincingly in favor of either side in a debate, regardless of their own personal feelings on any given subject. Charlie was a good debater.
The currency in social media is the ability to get attention. The best way to get attention is to posit the most outrageous viewpoints. The clicks and likes and comments on any negative coverage far outnumber that of stories that present a more positive assessment of a particular event or situation. As such, overexposure to social media can color perception and cause a loss of ability to see things in perspective.
Neither debates nor social media are inherently unhealthy. They're also not net positives either. As with many concepts, it's entirely dependent on the way they are used. It seems fair to say they are often not used in a beneficial manner.
There are certain things I personally say are inviolable. Questioning the inherent equality of people by race or gender, as Charlie did, is one of them. Arguing against the separation of church and state is another, as are his crusades against education and climate science. While I'm sure he could present some convincing arguments why he had arrived at these viewpoints, I simply stop being interested if anyone insists we need to have another go discussing these particular matters. Similarly, using violence of any kind in support of your viewpoints. As soon as you start molesting, shooting, vandalizing or calling for violence against some individual or group or property, I stop caring about hearing your opinion.
And that is why the message from this governor made a lot of sense and a lot of other takes going around do not.
The currency in social media is the ability to get attention. The best way to get attention is to posit the most outrageous viewpoints. The clicks and likes and comments on any negative coverage far outnumber that of stories that present a more positive assessment of a particular event or situation. As such, overexposure to social media can color perception and cause a loss of ability to see things in perspective.
Neither debates nor social media are inherently unhealthy. They're also not net positives either. As with many concepts, it's entirely dependent on the way they are used. It seems fair to say they are often not used in a beneficial manner.
There are certain things I personally say are inviolable. Questioning the inherent equality of people by race or gender, as Charlie did, is one of them. Arguing against the separation of church and state is another, as are his crusades against education and climate science. While I'm sure he could present some convincing arguments why he had arrived at these viewpoints, I simply stop being interested if anyone insists we need to have another go discussing these particular matters. Similarly, using violence of any kind in support of your viewpoints. As soon as you start molesting, shooting, vandalizing or calling for violence against some individual or group or property, I stop caring about hearing your opinion.
And that is why the message from this governor made a lot of sense and a lot of other takes going around do not.
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amstech
Posts: 2,801 +1,963
He never questioned inherent equality just stated facts about culture, race and gender. Seperation of church and state has many layers, and his comments about education and science were all backed by irrefutable data.
GodisanAtheist
Posts: 1,239 +2,600
- It's worse, its basically a vlog presented as news with no actual debate/dialogue/pushback on the ideas being presented as fact.
- I can't speak to individual annecdotes, but generally unsurprising as many conservatives seem to have hyperbolic views of liberals (they all want to kill babies!) and liberals have those same views of conservatives (they're all racist!), often times because of people like Charlie Kirk.
- Again, politics have always been divisive, but the divisions were largely private and local. Social media has allowed Joe Dumb**** to broadcast and receive ignorance across the world in the click of a mouse button.
amstech
Posts: 2,801 +1,963
Abortion is killing a developing human, and the only people that think Charlie was racist drank the radical left wing cool-aid.
GodisanAtheist
Posts: 1,239 +2,600
"Abortion is always an awkward topic for guys like me, because on one hand I am against women's rights, but on the other hand I'm pro-baby killing. Where does the debate on abortion leave a guy like me?"
-Bill Hicks, National Hero
- Or, you know, literally anyone that has taken 30 minutes to actually view his content.
amstech
Posts: 2,801 +1,963
Guys like me = degenerates.
Show me a clip where Charlie says something racist.
Not more programmed regurgitation, an actual clip.
Ohh wait, they don't exist.
But thanks for proving basically everything I've said for far.
Hard to win discourse when you embrace fallacy.
GodisanAtheist
Posts: 1,239 +2,600
- OMG why are you verbally assaulting me! Why is the right always so aggressive and violent?!
- Show me a clip where Charlie is the compassionate loving dove the right has painted him to be after his death.
No more programmed regurgitation, an actual clip.
Oh wait, they don't exist!
But thanks for proving basically everything I've said so far.
Hard to win discourse when you embrace fallacy.
SAD!
amstech
Posts: 2,801 +1,963
Cope harder little liberal.
You've shown everything we need to know about you.
Good day
Moving on:
youtube.com/watch?v=VaRPJSOC7J0&list=LL&index=11&t=797s
m4a4
Posts: 4,429 +6,627
Wow, you can't even find a clip of what you falsely claimed, so you did a "no, you!" when called out.
Imagine being in such a loud echo chamber that you can't even provide 1 receipt so you demand proof of the opposite in desperation
GodisanAtheist
Posts: 1,239 +2,600
Wow, you can't even find a clip of what you falsely claimed, so you did a "no, you!" when called out.
Imagine being in such a loud echo chamber that you can't even provide 1 receipt so you demand proof of the opposite in desperation
- Already provided in an earlier post where CK claims there is some grand conspiracy to replace white people in the US, which is an inherently racist conspiracy on the face of it.
The problem with RWNJ is all the effort to put in the work is on everyone else, then when you provide evidence they just cover their eyes and ears and move the goal posts with "OMG stop being a snowflake it's not actually racist until he's dropping hard R's".
There isn't any arguing in good faith, it's the classic "Lies have spread around the world before the truth has even had breakfast" problem.
m4a4
Posts: 4,429 +6,627
Wait, that is all you have and seriously pushing as your ironclad proof he was an evil, racist person? Especially in a climate where citizens are calling out their governments for allowing unchecked immigration because of all the problems it's creating for said citizens..?
No. I reject your premise that it somehow makes someone racist and horrible to question why such "mismanagement" of a border or immigration is taking place to the detriment of it's citizens.
So, since you claimed
Why don't you give it another go. If he's so racist as you claim, it should take you no time at all... assuming you actually in good faith did look at his content.
Or, if you're brave enough to step out of your bubble, why don't you watch a gay black guy show you how wrong you are about his character:
GodisanAtheist
Posts: 1,239 +2,600
-No, I provided a video and then was asked for another video. I can provide another and the. Will be asked to provide another.
The goal is to wear me and anyone that questions down through feigned ignorance. I won't play that game.
-Farmers who are now struggling to find a workforce and are going to demand some socialism from the government to redistribute my hard earned paycheck to cover them for their bad decisions? They shot themselves in the foot, some of them likely because they swallowed CK's swill.
-Yes, arguing that there is some conspiracy to eliminate white people with latinos is blatantly racist. People fell for it, and thanks to Trump will end up paying for it. Farm bankruptcies are way up in 2025 and that isn't going to stop anytime soon.
Thanks for proving my "It's not racist unless he uses a hard R" point though, I appreciate it.
Sigh ok sure, here is another one. You're right it's really not much work at all, I'm just lazy.
Now, were they trying to hijack her, were these Blacks trying to go rob her? Happening all the time in urban America, prowling Blacks go around for fun to go target white people, that’s a fact. It’s happening more and more.
Charlie Kirk 5/19/23
With additional context, defending a lady who goes on a racist trirade:
-Watched some of it and read about the guy as well, PragerU contributor, follow the money always. All part of the alt right recruitment machine.
Haha
you funny! Most journalism today isn't fact checked. News flies out the door to generate ad revenue. Sites ripping other site's stories off. Statistics has it's own set of problems, and a lot of people don't seem to be educated on how they're collected, created or generated - accuracy can be an issue, and some statistics can be misleading or false.I said he had some good points and bad points. He probably does need assistance. A lot of pro trump supporters do. When a court decision is made it's final - assuming no appeal is made. So to deny a statistic that someone was charged and found guilty - that's pretty fu#$ing solid to me. This is the problem with you people - your in denial about facts, especially if it doesn't suit your political agenda - if a light is red, its fu#$ing RED! Not green, blue or yellow or any other coloUr
I stated he was selective about the facts he presented. His panel of co-workers came to his rescue to side track the argument as to not accept the reality that he in fact got crushed by the question, and as someone that holds significant influence over others did not take sufficient responsibility for his erroneous ways. It takes a big man to accept that his made a mistake or accept defeat in a debate - he is not that man!
In another video I had seen he was trying to justify genocide - that says a lot about a person
amstech
Posts: 2,801 +1,963
Don't waste anymore effort on them, its very difficult to de-program the whimpering woke liberal brat.
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m4a4
Posts: 4,429 +6,627
Lol, another Media Matters video where they desperately try to convince their left leaning audience that their opinion is fact. Maybe I should quote Steven Crowder and expect to have you take me seriously? No wonder you're so prophetic here. I said do it in good faith, don't bull**** me again with some clickbait BS headline.Sigh ok sure, here is another one. You're right it's really not much work at all, I'm just lazy.
Now, were they trying to hijack her, were these Blacks trying to go rob her? Happening all the time in urban America, prowling Blacks go around for fun to go target white people, that’s a fact. It’s happening more and more.
Charlie Kirk 5/19/23
With additional context, defending a lady who goes on a racist trirade:
Especially when the context for this "Karen" is the internet immediately attacked her (who legitimately rented the bike), despite her aggressors being the ones in the wrong (after the tiniest amount of scrutiny). And despite her aggressors filming and shaming her.
You present yet another easy premise I reject. Saying that black people are been shielded from consequence from doing whatever they want against white people because they know the media will jump on their side doesn't automatically make you a *gasp* racist.
Especially when the media went radio silent for Iryna Zarutska. And when nobody tried to help Iryna Zarutska. And when the person who murdered Iryna Zarutska had 14 priors. And when the person who murdered Iryna Zarutska said he got the white girl.
Tell me, what race was the person who murdered Iryna Zarutska, who was afforded no accountability until the pressure from people outside of mainstream media was too loud again..?
One more chance. And don't bull**** me with another bad faith example, especially one where it tells you the context of what was happening more than once for your lying eyes and ears.
No, it just sounds like you started with "He's racist" because people told you to, then worked backwards along with your borrowed opinion. It must be nice having a strawman Charlie to fight against. Everything is black and white without nuance.
Ah, isn't that terribly convenient. Too hard to watch CK be a decent human being against people he's supposed to be racist against.
Must've hurt you too much to go against your cognitive dissonance...
m4a4
Posts: 4,429 +6,627
Oh, I've Ignored the toxic people who are blatantly lying or are too desperate to feel better about the assassination. And giving GodisanAtheist one more chance to stop BSing me with his desperate attempt to conclude CK is 100% racist (despite the contrary in any of CK's conversations with people).
Normally I don't jump in, but he seemed a bit more reasonable (which I am no longer seeing), and it was just sad seeing a place where people are supposed to be more intellectual have so many desperate attempts to fight a strawman of the guy.
...Not that you've been helping too much with the over the top name calling. It is hard to take seriously
GodisanAtheist
Posts: 1,239 +2,600
-A video is a video no matter where it's from. It's not even a short snippet but 10 minutes of this guy excusing some lady having a racist meltdown over some fairly low grade tomfoolery and then turning that around into standard white grievance stuff.
The lady has a right to be upset, but generally when racist language starts spewing it's a bridge too far.
-And right on queue...
- "No, get me more videos!" Doesn't matter what I bring you, the response will be the same.
- Man we don't even cover kids being shot up in school anymore. The school shooting in colorado that happened on the same day as Kirk's death isn't covered.
Turning every random news story that doesn't get covered into some sort of proof of grievance is mentally unhealthy.
-Nah, you dance for me now. Get me a clip where he preaches peace/love/tolerance/Christ like values.
- Never said he's racist. I said he preached for a stratified, illiberal, elitist world, one in which basically everyone would be worse off except for those at the top of the stack (the world Trump is creating for us now).
I'll add now that he used race baiting and division, and said racist things, to appeal to the hearts of white people who have donned the mantle of white victim. I miss the white saviors of the 90's, they were a better template for white folks to follow.
-Oddly convenient that the guy saying nice things about Kirk is someone that was making money off the same circle of people that Kirk was. Que bono, always.
m4a4
Posts: 4,429 +6,627
You specifically replied with this second one to imply it only takes 30 minutes to see he's racist. How disingenuous of you.
Nothing CK said in that video you quoted was him being a racist, but calling out an inconvenient trend in an insensitive way (boo hoo). You're primary issue is with what the woman said and you're projecting it onto him
That's right, dismiss the inconvenient truth and distract. It's easier than engaging it in good faith. You can't even bring yourself to say that it was wrong and the guy never should've been shielded from consequences.
I did and you quickly dismissed it and it's clips showing what sort of character he has, and there are hundreds more clips online where he engages with people in his events in good faith. Where are your compilations of CK being a racist?
Of course you could just ignore the guy's opinion and watch the clips presented, but we both know that you aren't here in good faith.
Yup. This marginalized guy's character is tied to money and he probably fabricated the CK clips just to fool people like you. It's impossible that he's doing this because he believes it. Glad you were on the same page /s
Anyways, looks like we're done here. You are allergic to anything without a left-spin, quick to fight your strawman Charlie, and despite your claim, you can't even present your side in good faith. Get Ignored, you're worse than whatever CK you have in your echo chamber.
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No, not every CONservative watches Fox "news". Not even all MAGAts.
But I know in your first post in this thread, you hit on ALL the old tired attempts at whining and insulting the left. And what's funny as hell, in the exact same order of whimpers and tears as all the other MAGA punch cards.
So now, getting all teared up about an "echo chamber" from you gets the scavengerspc ironic statement of the month!
But I will say this. My friends on the left are just as pissed off about Kirks murder as my friends on the right were about the murder of Melissa Hortman, her husband and their dog in their own home. VERY much the same.
Think that through, and there you have it.
As a center left guy, consider this.You specifically replied with this second one to imply it only takes 30 minutes to see he's racist. How disingenuous of you.
Nothing CK said in that video you quoted was him being a racist, but calling out an inconvenient trend in an insensitive way (boo hoo). You're primary issue is with what the woman said and you're projecting it onto him
That's right, dismiss the inconvenient truth and distract. It's easier than engaging it in good faith. You can't even bring yourself to say that it was wrong and the guy never should've been shielded from consequences.
I did and you quickly dismissed it and it's clips showing what sort of character he has, and there are hundreds more clips online where he engages with people in his events in good faith. Where are your compilations of CK being a racist?
Of course you could just ignore the guy's opinion and watch the clips presented, but we both know that you aren't here in good faith.
Yup. This marginalized guy's character is tied to money and he probably fabricated the CK clips just to fool people like you. It's impossible that he's doing this because he believes it. Glad you were on the same page /s
Anyways, looks like we're done here. You are allergic to anything without a left-spin, quick to fight your strawman Charlie, and despite your claim, you can't even present your side in good faith. Get Ignored, you're worse than whatever CK you have in your echo chamber.
Folks on the left know that MAGA was MANY times more vocal and upset, and demanding immediate action over Cracker Barrel, than they have ever been about a school shooting.
So while a big majority agree what happened to Kirk was wrong, they just can't get the outrage for a group that has displayed those priorities.
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GodisanAtheist
Posts: 1,239 +2,600
- I never said he was racist, please find me saying Charlie Kirk was racist. I don't know Kirk, nor do I have a para-social relationship with him the way many of his fans do, so I can't claim to know the guy.
He definitely used racist statements to draw an audience and make money though.
- His entire argument was centered around race, that there are blacks that prowl the streets looking for white people to hurt, based on a video of a lady having her e-bike put back in it's rack.Nothing CK said in that video you quoted was him being a racist, but calling out an inconvenient trend in an insensitive way (boo hoo). You're primary issue is with what the woman said and you're projecting it onto him
- Guy that stabbed Zarutska was arrested on the platform and charged with first degree murder. The guy that stabbed her was nuts, should have been in one of the mental institutions Regan closed down back in the 80's that has spurred this homelessness crisis in the years since.
Little surprise conservatives struggle with the concept of consequences for actions given the pardoning spree Trump has been involved in, moving a sexual predator like Maxwell to a low security prison etc.
- I didn't ask for some hour long time waster video of a PragerU influencer who's in on the take, I asked for a video arguing for Kirk preaching or arguing for peace/love/tolerance etc. As in espousing those ideas. I don't care if he was nice to people in his network, that's not the point.
- We all got bills to pay bruh.
- Shame. I will say this for Kirk: for all the bad faith arguments, grooming young vulnerable men into the MAGA-sphere, and then making a living off of their vulnerability and confusion, Kirk got out there and didn't back down from a argument.
Didn't seem like the kind of guy that would put folks on ignore, but so it goes.
amstech
Posts: 2,801 +1,963
Truth hurts.
That post is 100% accurate and it has the most likes of any comment on this article.
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