AAA study concludes "top tier" gasoline is worth the extra cost

[Uncle Al]

Three cents more a gallon for top tier fuel? On what planet? The narrowest spread I recall seeing in recent times is more like twenty cents. While there are a zillion so called additives on the market, there are a few that work well and adding that additive every 4th or 5th tank full is considerably cheaper than buying the highest priced fuel. If the hydrocarbon emission is decreased so significantly, why haven't we heard more from the EPA, especially with the Clean Air Act coming up for revision?

There are advantages to the upper grades, but I question the writers data and their conclusions. Either way, once the electric cars occupy the majority of the road it will be a mute point. (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA)

 

[p51d007]

AAA...not what I would call a "trusted" source.
Automobiles are designed in the USA to burn 87 octane. Granted, cars
like Corvettes, Mustangs, Chargers etc, can utilize the higher octane, but
for the most part 87 octane is enough for most cars. Run an injector cleaner
through your tank every so often will keep it cleaned out. Otherwise, you are
just throwing away money. I know a couple stations that have gotten rid of
almost all grades except 87 and 93. Back how it use to be when you pulled
into a station and saw regular and ethyl.

 

[captaincranky]

Diesel engines don't compress the gas/air mixture or use active ignition, but rather they compress air and then inject the fuel mixture in which combusts under the pressure.

No, the fuel burns under the HEAT created by compression. A semantic point? No, I don't think so.

 

[lripplinger]

I feel like this article is like saying that using "premium blend" will net higher fuel economy in my truck. Utter rubbish this article is. Also, using aftermarket fuel fuel injector cleaners is a complete waste of money. They don't do anything to clean out build up in the cylinders, etc. If anything, people should be concerned about the corn ethanol in the gas. That is the stuff that is hard on engines.

 

[captaincranky]

I feel like this article is like saying that using "premium blend" will net higher fuel economy in my truck. Utter rubbish this article is. Also, using aftermarket fuel fuel injector cleaners is a complete waste of money. They don't do anything to clean out build up in the cylinders, etc. If anything, people should be concerned about the corn ethanol in the gas. That is the stuff that is hard on engines.

No, I don't think that's what the article is saying.

Most alcohols have a very high solvency, and would be expected to wash down the cylinder walls of their wear (life ?), saving oil coating. (Keep in mind, the pistons and rings never actually touch the cylinder walls, at least not when the engine is pressured up and running). The science of modern oil additives has allowed drivers to expect 200,000 miles out of their engines, instead of the 60,00 or 70,000 one might expect during the 1950's. And yes, that's even with methanol blended into the fuel..

As far as fuel injector cleaners being "worthless", it's the same crap the refiners are dumping into the gasoline. Whether or not those detergents also affect deposits on valve stems and combustion chambers, you be sure to let us know about that, when you tear down your engine for the sake of proving a point in this thread...

 

[cliffordcooley]

Also, using aftermarket fuel fuel injector cleaners is a complete waste of money. They don't do anything to clean out build up in the cylinders, etc.

Maybe that's why they are called injector cleaners! For which to a degree they do clean, and only needed 2 or 3 times a year.

 

[tonylukac]

Wow,a article about gasoline,I thought it would be about where you could get the cleanest electricity.

I wonder if those 4000 miles included snow,rain,mountain passes,40+ degree heat and stop start traffic.

Off topic, but did you know in india half the people don't pay for their electricity? They just lassoo the power line and get it free. Sell a lot of electric cars there.

 

[captaincranky]

Maybe that's why they are called injector cleaners! For which to a degree they do clean, and only needed 2 or 3 times a year.

Whether or not, "injector cleaners" clean anything in the remainder of the fuel path, pretty much depends on the design of the injector system. Suffice it to say a system which has an injector at every cylinder, doesn't have fuel traveling through the intake manifold system, whereas "port injection" would.

In the latter type, (I think), the fuel injector is, (more or less), "a carburetor which squirts on time".

Off topic, but did you know in india half the people don't pay for their electricity? They just lassoo the power line and get it free. Sell a lot of electric cars there.

Oh hell, here in Philly the electric company, "PECO", practically has its own police force.

 

[cliffordcooley]

In the latter type, (I think), the fuel injector is, (more or less), "a carburetor which squirts on time".

Yes and when they get trashy, it screws up the fuel spray. Which is where the cleaner comes in. But as you say, whether or not they clean perfectly is another subject, however they do clean.

 

[SirGCal]

There used to be a few stations left with real gas, not this 10% ethanol crap we have to deal with now. My bike got over 60MPG on real fuel, barely 30MPG on what is now 'normal' US gas. I can't stand corn... My car gets about 19 on corn and got over 25 when I could get real fuel, and you could drive it like you stole it. The extra cost was easily a wash. And we're not even talking E85 (15% ethanol) which is just that much worse.

 

[Greg S]

For all those confused still, "top tier" gasoline is not referring to octane rating. Top tier fuel is (theoretically) produced with fewer contaminants and contains chemicals that help prevent carbon buildup.

Personally, I generally go to Shell. BP gas runs pretty much exactly the same numbers in my car, and I don't have a Chevron or Exxon-Mobile that is convenient for me to go to. I do know that certain gas stations have bad gas and get nearly 4mpg less because they contain small amounts of ethanol, but still labeled 87 octane. There is no cost difference for me since the only non-top tier fuel providers are further from my normal routes of travel and cost exactly the same amount per gallon.

 

[Adhmuz]

In Canada as far as I can tell they only add detergents to the highest octane rating fuels, any old 87 AKI octane fuel is just fuel and will probably create the gunk build up they seem so adamant to save us all from. Now I wonder how much of an affect this would have on newer direct injection engines that don't spray the fuel over the valves, wouldn't it be less vital? I'd like to know what the engine was they ran the test on, it may or may not have an effect on the outcome.

Second thing, for all those Europeans who think fuel is low grade in North America, in Canada in particular at Petro Canada gas station they have 94 AKI Octane known as Ultra 94, which would be equivalent to 101.5 on your RON index, easily one of the most potent fuels available for high compression engines anywhere without being aviation fuel. I don't use it myself, but know some people swear by it, some of them don't need it but hey, I'm not paying their fuel bills. Personally I use 87, see no reason to run with detergents and run injector cleaner every 4-6 months, my engine is approaching 400k km or 250k miles and still runs perfectly fine, I'd be interested to pull of the valve cover to see just how "bad" it could really be, but not enough to actually do so, why mess with something that ain't broke.

I feel sorry for the fella driving the 2000 Saturn SL, and anyone unfortunate enough to drive a Saturn in general...

 

[mailpup]

Top tier gasolines in the US add the same detergent package to all grades of pump gas including regular 87 octane. The only difference is the octane rating.

I'd be interested to pull of the valve cover to see just how "bad" it could really be, but not enough to actually do so, why mess with something that ain't broke.

Pulling the valve cover won't tell you anything about the effectiveness of the detergents in your fuel. It will tell you the effectiveness of your motor oil detergents in keeping your engine parts clean provided you change your oil at the recommended intervals. If you remove the intake manifold on some engines you might be able to see the condition of the intake valve deposits. If not, you would have to remove the head.

 

[captaincranky]

... [ ]... If you remove the intake manifold on some engines you might be able to see the condition of the intake valve deposits. If not, you would have to remove the head.

Modern engines are run so hot, and so lean, that it is doubtful that deposits in the combustion chamber are as severe as they were back in the day.
However, a rich runnin', oil burnin' clunker, could, if not easily, certainly conceivably, have enough deposits in its combustion chamber, to physically raise the compression ratio, along with an attendant need far a higher octane fuel to compensate.

You know, either tear it down and scrape the carbon out, or jack the gas up to "plus".

A rich air/ fuel mixture, provides at least as much opportunity for carbon deposits, as a fuel without detergents.

Engines with high levels of deposits in the combustion chamber are the most prone to "detonation", "ping", and "after run", assuming the ignition timing is set correctly, and the engine isn't overheating..

As a general supposition, today's engines with OBDII, are unlikely to get to that point, as feedback from the exhaust system's O2 sensors, simply wouldn't permit the engine to run that rich to begin with.

 

[yRaz]

I have noticed that with better fuel I drive longer and car works better. I really can't see any reason to buy low grade fuel.

Seals would be fine if you bought a german car and used the gasoline they recommend, probably 98 octane minimum. The gunk harms the seals. Now I understand why american cars need huge engines with no horsepower, their all so full of **** that by end of their lives 5 liters equate to 1 liter micra engine.

well I don't know what you're trying to say about german cars, but we are using a different metric if you think euro BMW's are using different gas than american BMW's.

I was never interested in the american engine vs german engine argument(or whatever engine argument you wanted to make), but I own a 98 V10 F250 and a 2001 V6 Honda accord. As far as BMW goes, they're so over engineered that they're impractical as performance cars and project cars. I had more problems in my 2004 325i than I have had in any of my other cars combined. That doesn't mean that they aren't great vehicles to drive, but they aren't worth maintaining. The Germans are better engineers than what they leave us with. I have no idea why they decide to over engineer everything, though....

I loved my 325i, but it was just too expensive to repair. I'm someone who tries most repairs myself, but with my 325i, I found myself causing more problems then I was repairing. I found myself having to give it up and ended up selling it.

I'm a car guy, through and through. American, Japanese, German, British, none of that matters to me. What it comes down to, to me, is what I have the most fun driving. All of these cars have given me an amazing rush while driving, but what I have found is that they are all great cars all with their own problems. There are the obvious "discrepancies" within certain models, but that doesn't give use the right to make wide sweeping statements about the cars we love

Any car guy in this thread will attest to the fact that driving is about the driving experience, not about the reputation attached to a name.

Godspeed all you car guys, I hope you all get to redline your dream engines

 

[mailpup]

Modern engines are run so hot, and so lean, that it is doubtful that deposits in the combustion chamber are as severe as they were back in the day.

No real argument with this. You still can get combustion chamber deposits even with today's engine management systems. The source of these deposits are not exclusively from fuel. Poor oil control through leaking valve stem seals contribute their fair share on older engines and to a lesser extent worn rings. If you happen to have a boroscope (admittedly not common DIY tool), you can peer into combustion chambers to see the extent of any deposits. The newer ones have video screens that eliminate the need to squint into a small viewfinder. Usually you view the piston tops but the top of the combustion chamber is hard to see unless you remove the head. However, the intake valve deposits of which I was speaking tend to form on the valve stem side of the valve. Mind you, I'm not arguing, just clarifying.

 

[captaincranky]

well I don't know what you're trying to say about german cars, but we are using a different metric if you think euro BMW's are using different gas than american BMW's....[ ]...

I get the distinct impression that a few participants in this thread are under the impression because they play GTA 5 hours a day, they know all about automotive technology. "Alabama man" in particujlar.

The topic has absolutely nothing to with octane rating relating to "top tier fuels". Detergent additives, quality of ingredients, and the quality of the refining process itself, are basically the only criteria determining fuel quality.

Octane rating is simply the "anti knock" property of any given fuel.

How anybody has managed to pervert that into a "European gas is better than US, because we use a different rating system to make it look that way", is well beyond my scope of reasoning..

 

[captaincranky]

No real argument with this...[ ]...Mind you, I'm not arguing, just clarifying.

Agreed. Keep in mind I said "much less likely, not couldn't", and that was only with respect to carbon deposits caused by incomplete combustion. If the motor is dumping crankcase oil into the combustion chamber then yeah, the tops of the pistons are going to bear a striking resemblance to that greasy steak you accidentally left on the grill for about 3 hours.

The flashpoint of motor oil is so high in relation to that of gasoline, that any of it present in the combustion chamber simply fails to burn completely, carbonizes and deposits itself on the walls of the combustion chamber

 

[Ascaris]

A study of gasoline prices over a 12-month period found that, on average, you’ll pay about three cents more per gallon for top-tier fuel.

I may not be understanding this article completely. Is this taking about name brand gas stations fuel, or the different grades of fuel?

Neither. It's talking about fuel that has been tested and found to comply with the top tier standards. It has nothing to do with octane grade or branding, though the more expensive brands do tend to all be top-tier.

Around here, the cheapest gas you can buy is top-tier. Two of the low-cost chains are top tier; ARCO and QuikTrip. The former is regularly the cheapest gas reported by GasBuddy in the area, but it has recently been approved as top tier. The latter is usually a few cents higher than the former, but still well below the price of the "Big Names" like Shell, Chevron, etc, which are also top tier.

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers/ will show you which gasoline brands are in the top tier.

 

[captaincranky]

Neither. It's talking about fuel that has been tested and found to comply with the top tier standards. It has nothing to do with octane grade or branding, though the more expensive brands do tend to all be top-tier.

Around here, the cheapest gas you can buy is top-tier. Two of the low-cost chains are top tier; ARCO and QuikTrip. The former is regularly the cheapest gas reported by GasBuddy in the area, but it has recently been approved as top tier. The latter is usually a few cents higher than the former, but still well below the price of the "Big Names" like Shell, Chevron, etc, which are also top tier.

This is simply because "ARCO" & "QuikTrip" don't have refineries. Hence, they're wholesale buyers from manufacturers which do. "Top tier" companies refine and sell gas wholesale, as well as normally having a chain of gas station in their own names. So, if you pick the right gas retailer, you get the good stuff for a good price. I expect who buys which gas from who, is a card played pretty close to the vest, so the refiner doesn't kill off too much of its ownretail sales profits.

I also think putting "too much information" into the article at the outset, would only serve to confuse the readership further, since they don't seem able to separate the concept of gasoline quality from its simple octane rating.

 

[Joe Average]

Octane is the resistance of fuel to combust under compression, and is only useful in high compression engines (of the sports car variety). You'd know if your car required higher octane, and it's an absolute waste of money using it otherwise.

Top Tier fuel is just a name referring to brands like Shell, BP, and Exxon that claim to put extra detergents in their fuel, which has nothing to do with octane. Missing from the article, though, is that most of these brands don't put the extra detergents in any fuel with lower than 89 octane, meaning that there is still no benefit while running regular 87 octane.

Given the fact that they tested 6 fuels from 3 brands, I'd guarantee that they didn't test 87 octane. So their 3 cent point is entirely moot, given that it's 3 cents on top of the extra ten cents you're paying to get 89 octane to begin with.

And the difference in price can be made up by simply driving a little less or accelerating a little less harder.

 

[Joe Average]

Neither. It's talking about fuel that has been tested and found to comply with the top tier standards. It has nothing to do with octane grade or branding, though the more expensive brands do tend to all be top-tier.

Around here, the cheapest gas you can buy is top-tier. Two of the low-cost chains are top tier; ARCO and QuikTrip. The former is regularly the cheapest gas reported by GasBuddy in the area, but it has recently been approved as top tier. The latter is usually a few cents higher than the former, but still well below the price of the "Big Names" like Shell, Chevron, etc, which are also top tier.

This is simply because "ARCO" & "QuikTrip" don't have refineries. Hence, they're wholesale buyers from manufacturers which do. "Top tier" companies refine and sell gas wholesale, as well as normally having a chain of gas station in their own names. So, if you pick the right gas retailer, you get the good stuff for a good price. I expect who buys which gas from who, is a card played pretty close to the vest, so the refiner doesn't kill off too much of its ownretail sales profits.

I also think putting "too much information" into the article at the outset, would only serve to confuse the readership further, since they don't seem able to separate the concept of gasoline quality from its simple octane rating.

The off-brands are loaded into the tanker trucks from the same fuel distribution tanks but the top-tier fuel gets a dose of detergents added in as well. Those detergents are what keeps the engine carbon free and injectors clean.

An annual dose of gas treatment isn't going to do the same thing as every tank of gas in your car containing a low dose of detergents from the top tier brands.

We have two cars. One we bought new about 300K miles ago. It idles very well and has never needed any work aside from timing belts, water pump, spark plugs, etc. ALL original emissions parts.

Our other car was bought used from the original owner and it used off-brand gasoline. We've owned it about 15 months now running the same top tier fuel that the 300K mile car is running and it's idle is starting to smooth out, starts a bit better, etc.

I've used the gas treatments with my older cars in the past. In an aircooled Beetle I owned in Europe it would make a difference after three bottles and three tanks of gasoline. The idle jets were so fine that the powered dye they use to mark the fuels there would clog the idle jets from time to time. It would clean the carb a bit but deposits on valves and heads take longer to dissolve and thus the benefit of better fuel with built in detergents doing long term good.

Beware the bottled fuel treatments are concentrated and can take a toll on your modern fuel pump. Too many solvents if mixed stronger than recommended on the labels I.e. two bottles per tank vs the one bottle the manufacturers recommend.

 

[captaincranky]

...[ ]...Beware the bottled fuel treatments are concentrated and can take a toll on your modern fuel pump. Too many solvents if mixed stronger than recommended on the labels I.e. two bottles per tank vs the one bottle the manufacturers recommend.

So it's only humans which, "have to do two of anything to get off"?

 

[HugsNotDrugs]

US provides very low grade fuel in general - it is completely unsurprising about these results. To be honest, I thought grade of fuel and carbon buildup was common knowledge?

87/89/91 in California... their "top tier" is considered regular in Australia and I would imagine Japan and Europe where 98+ octane is common.

Not quite. Most other countries like Japan have different calculations for octane, hence the large difference in numbers. Also, octane refers to flash point consistency which only has a loose correlation to carbon buildup.

 

[Darth Shiv]

Not quite. Most other countries like Japan have different calculations for octane, hence the large difference in numbers. Also, octane refers to flash point consistency which only has a loose correlation to carbon buildup.

Those numbers have already been discussed and the point still stands.