AMD's CPU roadmap reveals Zen 3, Zen 4, and 5nm

daimag

TS Rookie
Zen 3 CPU for consumer will be all available by end of 2021... does it mean that they just announce it this year and we need to wait until 2021 for them to release it stage by stage?
 
Last I've heard is that ZEN 3 will likely be the last of the AM4's.
Really, what‘s to keep AMD from creating and AM4 compatible Ryzen 4 and an AM5 compatible Ryzen 5 CPU using the same cores? With their chiplet design, all they need is use different IO dies (simplifying things here).

Now if there is a commercial interest in this I do not know, but it would be technically possible.
 
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Tantor

TS Booster
Honesty is always the best policy in the long run ... unfortunately, after thousands of years, humans are still too stupid to have learned this for some bizarre reason ... its amusing.
Best for whom? Nature is full of deception. Cancer cells depend on being mistaken for host cells; without that mask they would be quickly eliminated by body defenses.

Honesty is appropriate for your ingroup or 'neighbor'. Honesty may or may not be appropriate for those outside the group. But who is your neighbor?

Jesus addressed it with the parable of the Good Samaritan. His conclusion was that a neighbor is somebody who treats you as they would want to be treated. Those who do not treat you as a neighbor are, by their own actions, not your neighbor. It is the natural complement to the Golden Rule.

Modern evangelical christians do not understand this simple fact. They think Jesus' Golden Rule requires them to treat everyone as a neighbor.

Jesus denies that notion saying "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matt 7:6

In other words, do not share the sacred or valuable with non-neighbors. That includes the truth, because truth is the most sacred of all things, according to Jesus. Your enemies will use the truth to rend you.

There is a story about Confucius. He was held hostage by a warlord who wanted the prestige of having Confucius live in his city. Confucius asked to be let outside the gates, promising he would return. The warlord agreed because he knew that Confucius always kept his promises. Once outside, Confucius escaped. His disciples were upset. Confucius explained that a promise made under duress is not a promise. The warlord's actions were not those of a neighbor, therefore Confucius was not obligated to tell him the truth.

Game theory studies this topic in depth.
 

JimboJoneson

TS Maniac
Best for whom? Nature is full of deception. Cancer cells depend on being mistaken for host cells; without that mask they would be quickly eliminated by body defenses.

Honesty is appropriate for your ingroup or 'neighbor'. Honesty may or may not be appropriate for those outside the group. But who is your neighbor?

Jesus addressed it with the parable of the Good Samaritan. His conclusion was that a neighbor is somebody who treats you as they would want to be treated. Those who do not treat you as a neighbor are, by their own actions, not your neighbor. It is the natural complement to the Golden Rule.

Modern evangelical christians do not understand this simple fact. They think Jesus' Golden Rule requires them to treat everyone as a neighbor.

Jesus denies that notion saying "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matt 7:6

In other words, do not share the sacred or valuable with non-neighbors. That includes the truth, because truth is the most sacred of all things, according to Jesus. Your enemies will use the truth to rend you.

There is a story about Confucius. He was held hostage by a warlord who wanted the prestige of having Confucius live in his city. Confucius asked to be let outside the gates, promising he would return. The warlord agreed because he knew that Confucius always kept his promises. Once outside, Confucius escaped. His disciples were upset. Confucius explained that a promise made under duress is not a promise. The warlord's actions were not those of a neighbor, therefore Confucius was not obligated to tell him the truth.

Game theory studies this topic in depth.
What the hell are you on about?

When honesty becomes a recognized trait in you, people will trust you, form stronger relationships with you, be more willing to help you out, etc. So in the long term, being honest with others is one of the best things you can do for yourself.

It's not hard to understand. There's no need to obfuscate this little gem with babble.
 
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Boshum

TS Booster
What the hell are you on about?

When honesty becomes a recognized trait in you, people will trust you, form stronger relationships with you, be more willing to help you out, etc. So in the long term, being honest with others is one of the best things you can do for yourself.

It's not hard to understand. There's no need to obfuscate this little gem with babble.
I'd say it's almost always the best policy. I can think of hypothetical extreme situations where being honest would be evil.
 

seeprime

TS Evangelist
So why don't they just get on with it, and move to 0.0000001nm zen 20 or whatever.....

oh, I forgot.....can somebody say "milkin it", which is the exact same thing intel has been doing with Skylake 14nm+++++++ for like 5 years now...... go figure :)
You're probably joking, since your example would mean a trace would be far smaller than a single atom. It's just not possible.
 

Puiu

TS Evangelist
Zen 3 CPU for consumer will be all available by end of 2021... does it mean that they just announce it this year and we need to wait until 2021 for them to release it stage by stage?
We will most likely see Zen3 based desktop CPUs by the end of this year, just not all of them (R5 and/or R7) and certainly not any TR CPUs. The APUs also always seem to come 1 year late.
 

Shadowboxer

TS Maniac
Since Ryzen launched the prices of CPUs have dramatically increased. The current entry level Zen 2 part - the 3600 retails for not much less than the top end consumer grade i7 parts from the pre 6xxx series of Intel components from 2015 and before. You know the period when Intel were supposedly “milking” us.

Now we have a mainstream consumer grade competent from AMD in the 3950X selling for more than some of Intel’s previous HEDT parts have gone for and the icing on the cake - the TR3990X is the most expensive consumer CPU ever made.

I know this comment will attract many users to go “but I get way more for my money than we did before” and sure you do, the value of a chip should always be improving.

But the sticker prices of entry level and top end parts have dramatically risen no matter how you slice it. It just goes to show that AMD are no different to Intel. They are just trying to get as much of your money as possible, just like Intel. Just like any large corporation...
 

Boshum

TS Booster
Since Ryzen launched the prices of CPUs have dramatically increased. The current entry level Zen 2 part - the 3600 retails for not much less than the top end consumer grade i7 parts from the pre 6xxx series of Intel components from 2015 and before. You know the period when Intel were supposedly “milking” us.

Now we have a mainstream consumer grade competent from AMD in the 3950X selling for more than some of Intel’s previous HEDT parts have gone for and the icing on the cake - the TR3990X is the most expensive consumer CPU ever made.

I know this comment will attract many users to go “but I get way more for my money than we did before” and sure you do, the value of a chip should always be improving.

But the sticker prices of entry level and top end parts have dramatically risen no matter how you slice it. It just goes to show that AMD are no different to Intel. They are just trying to get as much of your money as possible, just like Intel. Just like any large corporation...
The 4c/8t 3770K, 4770K, 6700K, and 7700K were all priced over $330 and stayed there, while the 6c/12t 3600 came in at $200 and has already dropped. AMD has been introducing 6c/12t R5's at 4c/4t i5 prices and then quickly dropping the prices of older parts over time. A 3900X with 3 times the cores/threads of the old i7's is currently around $420. I'm not one of those that talks about Intel milking it, but you should try to be more accurate.
 

Shadowboxer

TS Maniac
The 4c/8t 3770K, 4770K, 6700K, and 7700K were all priced over $330 and stayed there, while the 6c/12t 3600 came in at $200 and has already dropped. AMD has been introducing 6c/12t R5's at 4c/4t i5 prices and then quickly dropping the prices of older parts over time. A 3900X with 3 times the cores/threads of the old i7's is currently around $420. I'm not one of those that talks about Intel milking it, but you should try to be more accurate.
You are incorrect, according to price spy the 4790K averaged $250;


This was more expensive than the 4770K and the 3770K. I ask that you use these tools to check the prices of those too as your numbers are flat out wrong.

Clearly you are the one who needs to be more accurate!
 

evolucion8

TS Enthusiast
You're right about the first part, very mistaken about the second.. Intel tried a 2.25x scale with 10nm. Much higher than what TSMC targets with their node progressions. Had Intel accomplished what they set out to do with 10nm, Ryzen would literally be Bulldozer 2.0 right now. Intel's performance targets were way too aggressive. Intel is far from lazy. They tried to give us the performance jump we all wanted and failed. They aren't milking anything. They took a massive gamble and it didn't work. They aren't milking 14nm, they just literally have no other alternative until they figure how where to go next. That's why they're going to start outsourcing some stuff to Global Foundry and Samsung. At this point 10nm is a lost cause and they've already begun working on 7nm so that's what we'll probably be seeing from Intel next.
That PR stunt post though....
 
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Boshum

TS Booster
You are incorrect, according to price spy the 4790K averaged $250;


This was more expensive than the 4770K and the 3770K. I ask that you use these tools to check the prices of those too as your numbers are flat out wrong.

Clearly you are the one who needs to be more accurate!
That's in British pounds, and while the 4790K was around 250 pounds for much of it's life (higher now), the 3600 was around 175 pounds for much of it's (lower now). At 150 pounds the 2700X is currently much lower than any of those older i7's have ever been outside of one apparent brief dip on the graph of the 4770K.
 
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Tantor

TS Booster
What the hell are you on about?

When honesty becomes a recognized trait in you, people will trust you, form stronger relationships with you, be more willing to help you out, etc. So in the long term, being honest with others is one of the best things you can do for yourself.

It's not hard to understand. There's no need to obfuscate this little gem with babble.
Yes, honesty is a good general policy within a social group. What I objected to was your claim that it's ALWAYS the best policy and that people who fail to understand this are stupid. I just do not believe that's true. Total honesty can be extremely destructive, selective dishonesty is often the smartest decision. It's called lying by omission and everyone does it.

Jesus and Confucius are perhaps the most recognized proponents of honesty. Both made notable exceptions when dealing with those who would do you harm. Or with those incapable of understanding the truth.

Jesus was renowned for hiding his messages in parables.

"And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." Mark 4:11

A gem can handle scrutiny, a trinket cannot.

Take care.
 
You're probably joking, since your example would mean a trace would be far smaller than a single atom. It's just not possible.
Of course I was joking, but the point I was making was not a joke, because with the incremental advances & improvements every year or so, we HAVE been getting milked for sooooo many years now for soooo many billions of $$ by the pc industry that it just aint funny any more....
 

ATInsider

TS Member
So why don't they just get on with it, and move to 0.0000001nm zen 20 or whatever.....

oh, I forgot.....can somebody say "milkin it", which is the exact same thing intel has been doing with Skylake 14nm+++++++ for like 5 years now...... go figure :)
Don't confuse Intel's Milking it with AMD's moving forward with technological advancements & high innovations.
 

ATInsider

TS Member
Of course I was joking, but the point I was making was not a joke, because with the incremental advances & improvements every year or so, we HAVE been getting milked for sooooo many years now for soooo many billions of $$ by the pc industry that it just aint funny any more....
Ah you were joking. I got you now LOL
Ya Intel has been milking for 30+ years now, but has been really milking it since 2011, when AMD released the underwhelming Bulldozer. Intel would consider Multi-Cores & with SMT enabled as premium products with a very hefty price tag. Thank goodness ZEN kicked Intel in the Balls back in 2017 and continues to kick them.
 

ATInsider

TS Member
We may be seeing the results of his work by the end of 2021 ... interestingly also the time-frame that Intel claims it will be process competitive again with AMD.
Building a new CPU micro-architecture, we are looking at 5-6 year window. It took AMD approx: 6 years to design & launch ZEN, from scratch. And that was with somewhat limited cash resources. But they succeeded, thanks to Jim Keller & the AMD CPU design team.

Intel on the other hand may take around 4-6 years, with Jim Keller at the helm all depending if that is why Intel hired him for. To build a new CPU from the ground up. If Intel already had an existing design for Jim Keller to work with, they might have it ready in about 4 years MIN. Jim was hired in 2018, so that ends up being the year 2022 as an absolute MIN case scenario. I cannot see anything meaningful before that time frame.
But you know Intel very well, they will throw $$$$$$$$ at the problem and accelerate its design and testing as much as possible, all while continuing to appease its shareholders.

This is why it's vitally important for AMD's upcoming ZEN3 to me a very powerful market disruptor, because as soon as Intel gets something out the door, there anti competitive behaviour may claw back a lot of AMD gains.
 

AS692313

TS Enthusiast
Since Ryzen launched the prices of CPUs have dramatically increased. The current entry level Zen 2 part - the 3600 retails for not much less than the top end consumer grade i7 parts from the pre 6xxx series of Intel components from 2015 and before. You know the period when Intel were supposedly “milking” us.

Now we have a mainstream consumer grade competent from AMD in the 3950X selling for more than some of Intel’s previous HEDT parts have gone for and the icing on the cake - the TR3990X is the most expensive consumer CPU ever made.

I know this comment will attract many users to go “but I get way more for my money than we did before” and sure you do, the value of a chip should always be improving.

But the sticker prices of entry level and top end parts have dramatically risen no matter how you slice it. It just goes to show that AMD are no different to Intel. They are just trying to get as much of your money as possible, just like Intel. Just like any large corporation...
One thing you're still forgetting is that the 3600 isn't an entry level part, there's a reason athlon and ryzen 3 still exist, just wait a little longer for the zen 2 utilizing athlon and ryzen 3 chips and they will probably be sub 150, let alone the athlon which could go in at around 70, the current entry level chip from amd is the Athlon 3000G, a pretty capable processor for 60 bucks, get your facts straight and realize the true starting point of amd's lineup of cpu's. They aren't milking you, they are innovating, which costs a lot more than just finding ways to reuse an old design. The reason people say that intel was milking people is because they charged ever increasing prices for ever slower increasing performance, AMD's price increases lately have always come with a huge improvement in performance and efficiency and their lower tdp products have capable enough fans included, unlike the stock intel fans that fail to prevent your cpu from melting. The high end threadripper is more powerful than anything on the market, they can control the prices and at the moment they're going to have to, especially if intel really is going to be releasing a new architecture along with NVidia's next generation of gpus. I'm not saying that AMD isn't like any other corporation, but as a dual manufacturer of CPU's and GPU's, they've got a hell of a lot more on their hands than the likes of Intel and NVidia, and yet they've made performance gains that we haven't seen from the other two for a while, and that's with a much smaller workforce and less money to throw around.
 

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