Epic argues it breached contract because Apple's terms are 'unlawful'

Endymio

Posts: 1,097   +907
You are missing the point so bad it's untrue, what Epic wants is for Apple to extricate itself from the whole process, this is the whole ****ing point mate.
The point you're missing is that Apple has already extricated itself. As I said: you have the phone, Epic has the game. Work it out. Apple won't stop you.

What you want is the diametrical opposite of extrication -- you want Apple to provide the missing piece of software to allow those two items to mesh.
 

Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
The point you're missing is that Apple has already extricated itself. As I said: you have the phone, Epic has the game. Work it out. Apple won't stop you.

What you want is the diametrical opposite of extrication -- you want Apple to provide the missing piece of software to allow those two items to mesh.
Ok then, explain how to remove IOS from my hardware so I can install a new OS on it.
 

Endymio

Posts: 1,097   +907
Ok then, explain how to remove IOS from my hardware so I can install a new OS on it.
Sure. Step 1 involves reverse-engineering the Bionic SoC in your phone so you can write a bootloader for it. Step 2 runs a few thousand pages of description. Not easy .. but not much worse than doing the same for the firmware in your car or smart-TV ... and I don't see you complaining about not being able to load random apps on those.
 

Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
Sure. Step 1 involves reverse-engineering the Bionic SoC in your phone so you can write a bootloader for it. Step 2 runs a few thousand pages of description. Not easy .. but not much worse than doing the same for the firmware in your car or smart-TV ... and I don't see you complaining about not being able to load random apps on those.
Right, so there is my point, Apple is indeed stopping me aren't they.

Apple should provide tools to vacate my hardware as a matter of course, it's my hardware after all. But it doesn't, and that is most certainly intentional.

And of course they don't because that privileged position on my phone is what allows them to reach into my dealings and tax me. They are not gonna give that up are they.
 

Axiarus

Posts: 592   +389
You are missing the point so bad it's untrue, what Epic wants is for Apple to extricate itself from the whole process, this is the whole ****ing point mate.

Epic does not want apples store front, or its platform, or its assistance in anyway.

What Epic wants is for phone owners to be able to install it's software on thier phones without interference from whatever ******* happens to make the phones OS.
That is how Apple works though. You want your app in the Apple ecosystem? It goes in the app store. Simple as that.
 

Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
Lets ignore this for a moment and go back to one of my original points.

Say MS puts out Windows 12 or whatever and now u can no longer install apps from the internet, u can only install apps through their new store which now adds a Microsoft tax to every steam purchase, every ebay, every amazon delivery.

And also makes itself practically impossible to remove.


You would be absolutely happy with them doing that?

Please tell me you see the inherent contradiction in your two statements.
Me wanting Apple to extricate themselves from any financial transactions I make on my phone, but wanting them to provide tools to remove their software from my hardware is contradictory? How exactly?
 
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Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
That is how Apple works though. You want your app in the Apple ecosystem? It goes in the app store. Simple as that.
This is the whole point of the lawsuit though isn't it. In Epics eyes Apple should not be gate-keeping to hardware it does not own.

Lets be serious here, it's the hardware in the phones that makes up Apples platform (hardware they down own) u would think that given that these people literally enable Apples phone empire that apple would treat their phone users with respect right? Hahahaha **** no, even though they have shunted the ownership and maintenance of the hardware for this platform over to the phone owners, do they treat the phone users with respect and cut them some slack when it comes to repairs and stuff, given that Apple is only really repairing the hardware that is the backbone of their own platform? hahahahahahaha **** no again, Apple phone owners are well known for being screwed on repairs.

This is how Apple treats it's phone owners................ how anyone can stand there and defend them, I just don't understand.
 
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Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,565   +2,462
This is the whole point of the lawsuit though isn't it. In Epics eyes Apple should not be gate-keeping to hardware it does not own.

Lets be serious here, it's the hardware in the phones that makes up Apples platform (hardware they down own) u would think that given that these people literally enable Apples phone empire that apple would treat their phone users with respect right? Hahahaha **** no, even though they have shunted the ownership and maintenance of the hardware for this platform over to the phone owners, do they treat the phone users with respect and cut them some slack when it comes to repairs and stuff, given that Apple is only really repairing the hardware that is the backbone of their own platform? hahahahahahaha **** no again, Apple phone owners are well known for being screwed on repairs.

This is how Apple treats it's phone owners................ how anyone can stand there and defend them, I just don't understand.
The user chose to purchase an iPhone knowing that iOS was the operating system. If they didn’t want iOS, they should have bought an Android phone!

I don’t see you hating on Google / Android phones. It’s not like I can purchase a Samsung phone and put iOS on it... but the Google Play store still takes a cut of each transaction...

Epic simply wants more money... I don’t exactly blame them - I want more money too! But I don’t think they’re going to get it.
 

Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
I don’t see you hating on Google / Android phones. It’s not like I can purchase a Samsung phone and put iOS on it... but the Google Play store still takes a cut of each transaction...
This article isn't about them, but if u want clarification then, yes, I hate them 2. If they are proliferating a closed operating system, and then leveraging that OS to screw over their own users as well as devs, then I think their scum.

Whether that is Apple, Google, Sony or MS.

Google though at least allows users to install apps from outside thier store, so they are a lot less guilty than the others.

The user chose to purchase an iPhone knowing that iOS was the operating system. If they didn’t want iOS, they should have bought an Android phone!
Yes, but did they buy that phone knowing that by using IOS Apple can reach into their business and put a tax onto financial dealings they make using that phone?

I'll doubt many even realise that's happening, let alone knew up front.

Epic simply wants more money... I don’t exactly blame them - I want more money too! But I don’t think they’re going to get it.
Of course they do lol, but unlike the other entities involved in this mess they were at least willing to pass the savings onto the end user.

 
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Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,565   +2,462
Yes, but did they buy that phone knowing that by using IOS Apple can reach into their business and put a tax onto financial dealings they make using that phone?

I'll doubt many even realise that's happening, let alone knew up front.
They SHOULD have known that... it’s not exactly hidden...
Not Apple’s fault if the user didn’t do their due diligence...

Name a platform where the owner doesn’t get a cut?
 

Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
Because MS makes SOFTWARE, not hardware.... try again...
And who owns that hardware exactly? When Apple sells me a phone the hardware becomes mine and no longer theirs. Revolutionary idea I know. /s

Try again.

My hardware is my hardware, Apple, Google, none of them have any business telling me what I can or can not use it for any more than Ford can dictate how to use your car.

And for that matter Apple and Google don't make the hardware either, Apple might make some hardware that goes into their phone, but the vast majority of it they don't, and Google certainly don't make the hardware in the phones. Try again, and without the poorly attempted deceit this time.

The situation with phones and PC's is exactly the same, I own the hardware and the OS is licenced, but windows does not make any attempt to dictate to me what I can or can not do, nor does it attempt to levy its position and tax my purchases.
 
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Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,565   +2,462
And who owns that hardware exactly? When Apple sells me a phone the hardware becomes mine and no longer theirs. Revolutionary idea I know. /s

Try again.

My hardware is my hardware, Apple, Google none of them have any business telling me what I can or can not use it for any more than Ford can dictate how to use your car.

And for that matter Apple and Google don't make the hardware either, Apple might make some hardware that goes into their phone, but the vast majority of it they don't, and Google certainly don't make the hardware in the phones. Try again, and without the poorly attempted deceit this time.

The situation with phones and PC's is exactly the same, I own the hardware and the OS is licenced, but windows does not make any attempt to dictate to me what I can or can not do, nor does it attempt to levy its position and tax my purchases.
Um... no, it’s NOT exactly the same... MS makes Windows, but they don’t make the computer I’m using (unless I have a Surface)...
They DO make the XBOX by the way - and they DO get a cut of every transaction made over it...

Apple makes the iPhone - they DO make the hardware... yes, it’s made of various pieces - much of which they don’t make - but that’s just semantics...

They designed the iPhone with iOS specifically in mind - as Samsung, Google, etc did with their phones and Android.

Ball’s in your court... try again...
 

Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
Um... no, it’s NOT exactly the same... MS makes Windows, but they don’t make the computer I’m using (unless I have a Surface)...
They DO make the XBOX by the way - and they DO get a cut of every transaction made over it...

Apple makes the iPhone - they DO make the hardware... yes, it’s made of various pieces - much of which they don’t make - but that’s just semantics...

They designed the iPhone with iOS specifically in mind - as Samsung, Google, etc did with their phones and Android.

Ball’s in your court... try again...
So your point is that because Apple designed the Iphone that somehow privileges them to reach into my business and tax my transactions.

What part of designing the phone allows this privilege?

Please do explain how one leads to the other.

And yes it is exactly the same, the hardware is mine, the OS is licenced, dont just say ummm no and expect me to not call u out on your poor argument, explain why when Windows is installed on my hardware in my PC it means 1 thing, but when IOS is installed on the hardware in my phone it means something else.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,565   +2,462
So your point is that because Apple designed the Iphone that somehow privileges them to reach into my business and tax my transactions.

Please do explain how one leads to the other.
Um... yes... that's exactly my point.

Here's a scenario for you.

I buy a plot of land, then buy a bar - it belongs to me.
I put a sign on the bar that says "Welcome All".
Anyone who comes in has to pay a cover charge - but after that, they are free to do whatever LEGAL things they want.
I hire a barperson (got to be gender neutral these days) - and tell them that they are free to sell whatever they want inside - but I get a cut.
I hire some musicians... they can play and sell their CDs - but I get a cut.

See where I'm going with this?

People are free to NOT go inside my bar - there are others!
The barperson is free to work AT ANOTHER BAR as well...
The musicians are free to go elsewhere as well...

But since I spent the money on the bar, aren't I entitled to a % of the profits?

---
Apple has done the same thing. They've designed a phone - they've also designed an operating system to make the phone do cool stuff. They created a store for other software developers to come and sell stuff FOR THE PHONE (and make the phone do other cool stuff) on.

They invested a TON of money into doing all of this.

Yes, they make a profit selling the phone - but that's a profit on the cost of the iPhone only. They also expect to get money from the software they designed, the R & D that goes into everything they continue to do...

Do they make crazy huge profits? Yes they do - because the free market has judged that they deserve to!

If people didn't think an Apple product was worth the cost, they'd buy a different phone. There ARE other choices you know.
 
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Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
Um... yes... that's exactly my point.

Here's a scenario for you.

I buy a plot of land, then buy a bar - it belongs to me.
I put a sign on the bar that says "Welcome All".
Anyone who comes in has to pay a cover charge - but after that, they are free to do whatever LEGAL things they want.
I hire a barperson (got to be gender neutral these days) - and tell them that they are free to sell whatever they want inside - but I get a cut.
I hire some musicians... they can play and sell their CDs - but I get a cut.

See where I'm going with this?

People are free to NOT go inside my bar - there are others!
The barperson is free to work AT ANOTHER BAR as well...
The musicians are free to go elsewhere as well...

But since I spent the money on the bar, aren't I entitled to a % of the profits?
OK then to follow on from your analogy, the point of Epics argument is this.

Say I'm at your bar and at your bar I buy a computer game called fortnite. Now whilst I am in your bar I pay your taxes no problem.

Now I take that game home with me away from your bar, but when I have got the game home and I try to buy some funbucks or whatever I notice that your ****ing bar is taxing me for every purchase, even though I long since left your bar.


This is the part of your crappy bar that Epic takes exception 2.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,565   +2,462
OK then to follow on from your analogy, the point of Epics argument is this.

Say I'm at your bar and at your bar I buy a computer game called fortnite. Now whilst I am in your bar I pay your taxes no problem.

Now I take that game home with me away from your bar, but now I have got the game home and I try to buy some funbucks or whatever I notice that your ****ing bar is taxing me for every purchase, even though I long since left your bar and my business with you was concluded the moment u delieverd the game to me.


This is the part of your crappy bar that Epic takes exception 2.
No - because you never would have received Fortnite without my bar - so YES, I'm still entitled to any purchases you make.

Because you HAVEN'T left my bar - you're still using Apple's iPhone to play Fortnite - even if you pay for stuff on Epic's website on your PC. Apple sees this payment as simply Epic's way of cheating their % - and so enforces the "tax".

Apple is perfectly fine with you paying Epic through their website - it won't take a tax - provided you then play Fornite on your Playstation or PC....
______________

This is the problem so may people have with capitalism: they love the stuff, but they don't like that the people who make the stuff get rich...

Well, I'm sorry... but if there was no incentive (see: get filthy rich), then very few people would bother investing their time and money into making the cool stuff we all enjoy.

There are plenty of haters who simply hate successful companies like Apple, Google, Microsoft etc... Are these corporations "good"? Probably not.... but they're no worse than the average person either - they're just really rich and powerful.
 
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Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
No - because you never would have received Fortnite without my bar - so YES, I'm still entitled to any purchases you make.
Are you for real? I didn't ever see Game or EB or any other store front taxing me after I had bought games from their store. So the suggestion that this is acceptable behavior when Apple does it is pretty sick tbh.

Because you HAVEN'T left my bar - you're still using Apple's iPhone to play Fortnite - even if you pay for stuff on Epic's website on your PC. Apple sees this payment as simply Epic's way of cheating their % - and so enforces the "tax".
Your bar constitutes the Apple store front, when u have facilitated download to MY PHONE, when the game has been installed locally, your bars job is done.

Your bar should not extend to IOS, when IOS is installed to hardware that I own. No matter how much u might want it to.

This is the problem so may people have with capitalism: they love the stuff, but they don't like that the people who make the stuff get rich...
I have a problem with the proliferation of closed operating systems, they can make as much ****ing money as they want, capitalism? Who gives a **** about that.

I couldn't care 2 ****s how much money apple makes, so long as they do it without a closed OS.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,565   +2,462
Are you for real? I didn't ever see Game or EB or any other store front taxing me after I had bought games from their store. So the suggestion that this is acceptable behavior when Apple does it is pretty sick tbh.



Your bar constitutes the Apple store front, when u have facilitated download to MY PHONE, when the game has been installed locally, your bars job is done.

Your bar should not extend to IOS, when IOS is installed to hardware that I own. No matter how much u might want it to.
Um... no...The iPhone is portable - unlike my bar - sorry, metaphors can only go so far... I thought you comprehended my point... I'll try again.

Apple designed your iPhone and paid to build it - they then sold it to you and you own it. They ALSO designed iOS and the Appstore - and they can only run on an iPhone. You DO NOT own iOS - nor do you own the Appstore. You are allowed to use them - your purchase of the iPhone gives you that right - but any transaction you make is subject to Apple's tax.

Understand now?

This is the same reason that, while you may own your Playstation or XBOX, every purchase you make on it gets taxed by Sony or MS... It's also why a percentage of every purchase you make on your Android phone goes to Google...

The exact % tends to be dictated by the free market - if the % is too high, people won't pay. As everyone seems to be raking in billions of dollars, it seems like it's a pretty fair rate.

Epic had this same argument with Steam awhile back. They felt that Steam's 30% tax was too much - they claimed they could run a profitable game store at 8% - they later realized that 12% worked better... Many argue that without Fortnite (which they themselves make), their game store isn't making very much profits...

Back to the topic of the thread - Epic clearly believes that Apple's % IS NOT fair. If they can get enough developers to agree with them, perhaps it will be lowered... but I suspect they're not going to win.

Time will tell.
 
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Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
Understand now?

This is the same reason that, while you may own your Playstation or XBOX, every purchase you make on it gets taxed by Sony or MS...
Yes my issue with proliferation of closed operating systems only applies to Apple /s

My problem buddy is that closed OS's allow for the shitty behavior u have just described and that Epic is rightly fighting against that.

For the moment anyway, I'm not pro Epic or anything but if they are gonna land blows on Apples walled garden im all for it.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,565   +2,462
Yes my issue with proliferation of closed operating systems only applies to Apple /s

My problem buddy is that closed OS's allow for the shitty behavior u have just described and that Epic is rightly fighting against that.

For the moment anyway, I'm not pro Epic or anything but if they are gonna land blows on Apples walled garden im all for it.
Ahhh... so you simply don't like someone profiting from their own work... I get it, you are a communist I suppose... everyone should just be working for the greater good...

The thing is, that's just not how human nature works. People tend to work hardest when they know that they, or their loved ones, will profit from their work.
 

Xallisto

Posts: 118   +116
Ahhh... so you simply don't like someone profiting from their own work... I get it, you are a communist I suppose... everyone should just be working for the greater good...

The thing is, that's just not how human nature works. People tend to work hardest when they know that they, or their loved ones, will profit from their work.

Now I know ur not even reading my posts, dunno why I have been wasting my time entertaining you.

I literally said 2 posts ago that I couldn't care less about how much money folks make, but yeah I'm a communist clearly.

If someone is profiting by screwing literally everybody including the people that maintain their very platform then yeah I'm gonna take issue with that.

And if u think hat makes someone a communist, then, man, have I really been overestimating ur intelligence.

Well I'm done wasting my time on someone who isn't even reading what I'm posting.

The thing is, that's just not how human nature works. People tend to work hardest when they know that they, or their loved ones, will profit from their work.
Bit of a weird non-sequitur that one Squid.
 
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Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,565   +2,462
Now I know ur not even reading my posts, dunno why I have been wasting my time entertaining you.

I literally said 2 posts ago that I couldn't care less about how much money folks make, but yeah I'm a communist clearly.

If someone is profiting by screwing literally everybody including the people that maintain their very platform then yeah I'm gonna take issue with that.

And if u think hat makes someone a communist, then, man, have I really been overestimating ur intelligence.

Well I'm done wasting my time on someone who isn't even reading what I'm posting.



Bit of a weird non-sequitur that one Squid.
No, I now realize I’ve been wasting my time with you... you post on a thread that has a specific topic about how you hate Apple - then extend it to every company who has a “closed OS”...

Explain why you posted to begin with? How was your opinion relevant to THIS ACTUAL article?

I apologize to everyone who has bothered to read these last several posts - you’ve been relegated to a severe time suck for no reason.

Please troll elsewhere... goodbye.