Game publishers push back as "Stop Killing Games" campaign surges past 1 million signatures

[lonetac]

Good thing you don’t do policy work then. Because it all starts with agreeing as to what the problem is. Then we address how to solve it. Putting the cart before the horse goes nowhere and it gets there fast.

And opinions can be wrong when they come from a place of ignorance, willful or otherwise. It is a difference of opinion on if a raincoat or umbrella is a better solution to rain. We must agree it is raining. You notably have not offered a different solution. Just that this is entirely unworkable to you due to this one use case. It’s just being obstinate.

I’m not foaming at the mouth in rage. I don’t care enough about online discussions to get THAT heated. I just don’t like seeing ignorance peddled about.


Opinion masquerading as fact? It’s not an unreasonable take to say that if something could be done in the past and the technology to do the thing still exists, it can be done now.

Oh and feel free to quote to me where you acknowledged those consumer grievances.

Ok, now you are just being a jerk for no reason. There is no reason to insult me, I have not insulted you. How about keep it civil? I wont be responding to you as you are not capable of civil conversation. I will continue to engage others.

I agreed to a problem many times. In fact my approach to how this policy should be implemented makes more sense than blanket sweeping generalizations. Ive actually been trying to DEFINE the policy while you sit here screaming Im wrong...

Nobody here has argued there isnt an issue. I havent seen it, I havent argued that.

your opinion can be just as wrong as mine, you just think yours is right because you seem to be a bit self righteous. Perhaps your ego is bigger than mine, not sure.

I dont like ignorance spewed either, thats why I am here talking about it, see how opinions work? I am actually addressing the problem and talking about it.

I have stated repeatedly my stance, how it should be considered but you are too interested in "being right" and responding instead of reading and comprehending. There is no reason I should have to repeat myself, my statements are here. If you haven't read what's already there, you wont read what I post next.

I never once said this is entirely unworkable. You guys and your straw man arguments are ridiculous. You cannot be expected to be taken serious when that's how you argue. No matter how much you think you are right. I know lots of folks whose brain absolutely melts when met with an opinion they cant accept. Its clear that's what's happening here.

In other words, I am speaking to a void with someone who just wants to respond and be right, you don't want to discuss.

Attack the issue, not the person.

Have the day you deserve.

 

[lonetac]

Compare to games?

Its the analogy we are comparing. its a bit obtuse but let me see if I can articulate.

Hypothetically, lets say you purchased a game and it is no longer supported. Lets say its WoW.
1. Blizzard gives you the ability to play it solo at home.
2. You want to create a server that is hosted online serving 100 people.

Buying music.
1. you buy the music and can play it at home as much as you want
2. Using it in any other form incurs penalties.

1 from both situations and 2 line up in their way of being used. Sharing no.2 online with other folks.

 

[Squid Surprise]

Its the analogy we are comparing. its a bit obtuse but let me see if I can articulate.

Hypothetically, lets say you purchased a game and it is no longer supported. Lets say its WoW.
1. Blizzard gives you the ability to play it solo at home.
2. You want to create a server that is hosted online serving 100 people.

Buying music.
1. you buy the music and can play it at home as much as you want
2. Using it in any other form incurs penalties.

1 from both situations and 2 line up in their way of being used. Sharing no.2 online with other folks.

My point was that you don’t purchase games to “profit” from them - except in very limited use-cases such as streamers and esports.

Music - where you purchase it to profit, such as disc jockey, concerts, etc - is clearly a different animal.

So justifying the forced deletion of a game after EOL cannot be done in good conscience.

 

[GhostLegion]

Have the day you deserve

Passive aggressive much?

I’ll disengage now but the charges you are leveling at me I feel just as accurately describe yourself to my eyes.

Especially since you have this pretension of being oh so cerebral and above it all. As for insulting you? Please. Hardly. It was more a commentary that the real world functions differently. Complete solutions do not spring forward like Athena from the skull of Zeus.

Actually. Let’s dissect that shall we? Where precisely did I insult? Was it any more or less insulting than the following?

I know lots of folks whose brain absolutely melts when met with an opinion they cant accept. Its clear that's what's happening here.

Again, I’m not mad. And it sure does seem that you are arguing against the whole “Stop Killing Games” thing. If you haven’t been, it’s a good impression to the contrary.

And it isn’t self righteousness, it’s confusion when arguing for something that appears to be self evident.

Also, glancing at the Wikipedia page…

“Person 2 argues against a superficially similar proposition Y, as though an argument against Y were an argument against X.”

Seems to me that your argument involving royalty rights regarding music is equally a straw man? No?

Seriously though, I’m not interested in defining. The policy down to the last detail. This is a tech news site, not a legislature.

I’m interested in agreement in principle. If you agree IN PRINCIPLE that consumers have a right to the content they purchase for as long as they wish to consume it and that publishers unilaterally shutting down games and robbing consumers of that content is wrong and that something must be done then I’m not entirely certain what you are advocating for tbh. You can find games that this won’t work for and you can’t some that this won’t work for. It’s largely immaterial to the principle of the thing.

Handwringing ones hands about the potential damage to indie devs or restrictions on the industry without anything to back it up is just pointless speculation.

 

[GhostLegion]

My point was that you don’t purchase games to “profit” from them - except in very limited use-cases such as streamers and esports.

Music - where you purchase it to profit, such as disc jockey, concerts, etc - is clearly a different animal.

So justifying the forced deletion of a game after EOL cannot be done in good conscience.

Seriously, at this point, I think you and I have exhausted ourselves. He is entirely unwilling to concede anything so far. As much as he is claiming I’m being toxic or unthinking…I really don’t know what is going to get across here. He’s dug into his position at this point and I don’t think it really matters what you and I say.

Edit: to the point he made about using it in any other way incurs penalties…Thats also untrue given the nature of fair use. I’m not claiming fair use applies just that there are contexts in which other uses would be legally condoned

 

[lonetac]

My point was that you don’t purchase games to “profit” from them - except in very limited use-cases such as streamers and esports.

Music - where you purchase it to profit, such as disc jockey, concerts, etc - is clearly a different animal.

So justifying the forced deletion of a game after EOL cannot be done in good conscience.

Its not just concerts. Its simply playing the music where they dont want you to play it...
And again, I dont disagree about the forced deletion of games in many aspects. I think its much more complicated than "trivial" and that some games it may not be possible for.

 

[lonetac]

Not all of them - I remember running a private server for several games… Descent, Unreal Tournament were my favourites…and they took one PC with decent specs and minimal knowledge/upkeep…

Again, you are simply not qualified to say this for every game that is or to be in scope for this campaign and genre of game.

Some might be gullible enough to believe that but a handful of examples doesnt mean its possible for every game that this will impact or impact in the future.

We have examples where it was easy and examples where it isnt. Hence the point, not trivial. In some cases, potentially.

Nobody here is qualified to say something like that.

 

[lonetac]

I said I wouldnt but I am so you can save me the snarky reply. I got bored. I am off for the rest of the night though.

Passive aggressive much?

Depends, do you deserve to have a good day? Thats up to your interpretation.

I’ll disengage now but the charges you are leveling at me I feel just as accurately describe yourself to my eyes.

No its not, you literally told me I was spreading ignorance and talking about me writing policy which is hilarious considering I am the only one talking about policy while you blindly defend a campaign you dont even know what is going to mean or do for the industry. You should be asking questions instead of going full throttle into something you dont know what it details.

Especially since you have this pretension of being oh so cerebral and above it all. As for insulting you? Please. Hardly. It was more a commentary that the real world functions differently. Complete solutions do not spring forward like Athena from the skull of Zeus.

Actually. Let’s dissect that shall we? Where precisely did I insult? Was it any more or less insulting than the following?

Where I have I showed I am above it all? Ive actually been level headed and havent said anyone is wrong really outside of saying its not trivial because it isnt. Ive asked questions and it seems to have made you upset. Ive been getting into the actual examples and talking about how it will impact games instead of just making broad sweeping generalizations.

My comment about brain melting, notice what it was replying to? Its responding to YOU in kind after the post you made about me. You then followed up with more threads about me and not the topic. I treat folks the way they treat me. Nobody else is being pissy here. You are the one wanting to argue, not talk about it.

Opinion masquerading as fact, yes, every time you and someone else says its trivial that all games can do this, thats an opinion masquerading as fact but you will never concede that.

“Person 2 argues against a superficially similar proposition Y, as though an argument against Y were an argument against X.”

Seems to me that your argument involving royalty rights regarding music is equally a straw man? No?

It could be but the difference between me and you, if I am wrong I can admit it. You wont listen to anything and just say I am wrong over and over. I have conceded several points in this thread. Some have even agreed with some of my points about MMO's, online games and subscription based. Thats called having a conversation. Im not interested in being right, I am interested in understanding the impact it could have.

Lets go back to the topic at hand.
If you play music in some situations without proper licensing you could be fined. This is not a straw man. You telling me that I said something that I didnt, is a straw man. Learn what a straw man is.
If I am wrong about something, prove it. I can prove that you could be fined for using music you dont have permission to use even though you purchased the music, in many situations. Would you like me to do so or do you concede that point?

I’m interested in agreement in principle. If you agree IN PRINCIPLE that consumers have a right to the content they purchase for as long as they wish to consume it and that publishers unilaterally shutting down games and robbing consumers of that content is wrong and that something must be done then I’m not entirely certain what you are advocating for tbh. You can find games that this won’t work for and you can’t some that this won’t work for. It’s largely immaterial to the principle of the thing.

Handwringing ones hands about the potential damage to indie devs or restrictions on the industry without anything to back it up is just pointless speculation.

There is a lot of speculation going on, thats for sure. Depending on what restrictions this campaign successfully completes, it could be but since we dont know the details of how they expect it to be implemented we cant know. I dont sign up for things that are not clearly defined, this could backfire. Notice the word "could" because I know we dont know.

I have stated over and over there are many scenarios I agree with the campaign on. The details are sketchy and I dont think its possible to do for every game and genre of game. Why this is so hard for you to accept is beyond me. Its absolutely not immaterial because laws state things and everyone has to follow them, if this were to become a law.

Ill eagerly await the next "your wrong" statement from you but I wont hold my breath. There is conversation to be had here. This isnt about you always being right bud, you need to let that go. You dont know everything here about this plan and are making a lot of assumptions yourself.

 

[GhostLegion]

I said I wouldnt but I am so you can save me the snarky reply. I got bored. I am off for the rest of the night though.


Depends, do you deserve to have a good day? Thats up to your interpretation.

No its not, you literally told me I was spreading ignorance and talking about me writing policy which is hilarious considering I am the only one talking about policy while you blindly defend a campaign you dont even know what is going to mean or do for the industry. You should be asking questions instead of going full throttle into something you dont know what it details.

Where I have I showed I am above it all? Ive actually been level headed and havent said anyone is wrong really outside of saying its not trivial because it isnt. Ive asked questions and it seems to have made you upset. Ive been getting into the actual examples and talking about how it will impact games instead of just making broad sweeping generalizations.

My comment about brain melting, notice what it was replying to? Its responding to YOU in kind after the post you made about me. You then followed up with more threads about me and not the topic. I treat folks the way they treat me. Nobody else is being pissy here. You are the one wanting to argue, not talk about it.

Opinion masquerading as fact, yes, every time you and someone else says its trivial that all games can do this, thats an opinion masquerading as fact but you will never concede that.

It could be but the difference between me and you, if I am wrong I can admit it. You wont listen to anything and just say I am wrong over and over. I have conceded several points in this thread. Some have even agreed with some of my points about MMO's, online games and subscription based. Thats called having a conversation. Im not interested in being right, I am interested in understanding the impact it could have.

Lets go back to the topic at hand.
If you play music in some situations without proper licensing you could be fined. This is not a straw man. You telling me that I said something that I didnt, is a straw man. Learn what a straw man is.
If I am wrong about something, prove it. I can prove that you could be fined for using music you dont have permission to use even though you purchased the music, in many situations. Would you like me to do so or do you concede that point?


There is a lot of speculation going on, thats for sure. Depending on what restrictions this campaign successfully completes, it could be but since we dont know the details of how they expect it to be implemented we cant know. I dont sign up for things that are not clearly defined, this could backfire. Notice the word "could" because I know we dont know.

I have stated over and over there are many scenarios I agree with the campaign on. The details are sketchy and I dont think its possible to do for every game and genre of game. Why this is so hard for you to accept is beyond me. Its absolutely not immaterial because laws state things and everyone has to follow them, if this were to become a law.

Ill eagerly await the next "your wrong" statement from you but I wont hold my breath. There is conversation to be had here. This isnt about you always being right bud, you need to let that go. You dont know everything here about this plan and are making a lot of assumptions yourself.

Nah, I’m good. At this point, I did my good faith debating. I said I would disengage and thats what I’m doing. I’m encouraging others to do the same. Not saying the hive mind is right all the time because it certainly isn’t and I’ve been on both ends of that at one point or another but if you can’t see why your analogy is flawed, I can’t help you.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[yRaz]

Nah, I’m good. At this point, I did my good faith debating. I said I would disengage and thats what I’m doing. I’m encouraging others to do the same. Not saying the hive mind is right all the time because it certainly isn’t and I’ve been on both ends of that at one point or another but if you can’t see why your analogy is flawed, I can’t help you.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm surprised that this thread hasn't been locked yet. Forget the tangents, we're in involute territory now

 

[GhostLegion]

involute territory

New vocabulary for me! Thank you