Badvok
Posts: 395 +217
That's the beauty of this system, not only is the energy generated external to the capsule (as for electric trains) but the drive itself is external and hence doesn't need accelerating.
Hyperloop One tests are successful in setting new record speeds
- Thread starter Greg S
- Start date
captaincranky
Posts: 20,437 +9,394
Oh, the air pressure at 200,000 feet certainly is "edge of space".
"In order to reach new high speeds, a vacuum system was applied to the tube to decrease air resistance. Air pressure inside of the tube system was equivalent to being at 200,000 feet above sea level".
Which is roughly 38 miles above ground, and into the "mesosphere". There is granted, enough air up there to burn up meteors, and maybe ignite the Aurora Borealis.
Just so we're on the same page, (er pressure altitude), check out the specs on the SR-71 Blackbird", which had a service ceiling of something on the order of 100,000 ft, and normally operated at maybe a meager 85,000 ft..
The camera on the SR-71 could accurately capture the license plate of a car from 80,000 ft.
– It was named Blackbird due to its advanced stealth capabilities and heat absorbing black paint, but “Habu,” “SR,” “Lady in Black,” and “Sled” are other known nicknames.
– From the cockpit at the pilot can see the curvature of the Earth and stars during daylight while flying in the top one percent of atmosphere.
– Over 4,000 missiles have been fired at the SR-71, none of them hit.
– The SR-71’s celestial navigation system was called “R2-D2.”
– The structure of the Blackbird was designed to seal and tighten at altitude, so on the ground it “creaked” a lot and leaked fluids.
Badvok
Posts: 395 +217
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kármán_line so 200,000 isn't even two thirds of the way there.
captaincranky
Posts: 20,437 +9,394
WTF is wrong with you? There's a 99% vacuum at 85,000 feet. That's not me quoting that, it's NASA.
From the cockpit at the pilot can see the curvature of the Earth and stars during daylight while flying in the top one percent of atmosphere.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/standard-atmosphere-d_604.html
Note the pilot wearing what is basically a space suit.
Last edited:
Badvok
Posts: 395 +217
Really? I guess you're living up to your handle.
Show me the quote, they don't make kindergarten level mistakes like that. But please don't tell me you have actually taken the "top one percent of atmosphere" and translated that to get 100% - 1% = 99% vacuum.
captaincranky
Posts: 20,437 +9,394
The link I included directs to density and pressure charts up to 250.000 feet. Follow it, and tell me how much air you think is there.
Throughout this thread, you have been doling a bunch of semantic crap yourself. Talking "it's nowhere near absolute vacuum". Nobody said it had to be. But with stations, along with access and egress, the air isn't going to stay out of a 200, (actually 400 mile long tunnel by itself, if it's to be a true loop).
Then there's your completely absurd, "power consumption comparison" between a bullet train, and some dumb a** "tiny plug" these fools shot through a closed tube. Get real, the junk, at present, has no payload, does nothing, and uses way more power than a locomotive.
Additionally, since we're talking about only 3 stations on this loop, it's really a project for the elite, and not mass transit, as Musk would like you to believe. If this is indeed "a loop", you would have to divide to maximum speed attained by 2, to get the actual time of travel, If "the loop" doubles back into itself, then you can only travel in one direction. It would defy not only physics but common sense to think that two end of line two loop-backs wouldn't put a severe dent in the travel time either. So, when Musk is talking "hundreds of miles and hour" he's kind of full of sh!t. Besides, who but the elite would expect, or need, to commute between DC, Phila, and NYC, on a daily basis. Most of this "visionary crap", has already been replaced by video conferencing.
Even if the thing turns out, it will be the land equivalent of buying a ticket on the Concorde, not a ticket on "regional rail".
At present, virtually every railroad in the country has been bailed out by the fed. But primarily, Amtrack has had its hand in Uncle Sam's cookie jar the most. The primary route of this "hyper loop", is exactly the same right of way as Amtrack"s primary corridor.
If you think this is economically feasible, practical, or even doable, in the short term, you need to crank you head out of somewhere.
Musk runs his mouth, and people empty their wallets in his direction. At present, he's the worst, leech, parasite, and charismatic, since Rasputin.
Badvok
Posts: 395 +217
Err, it was you that said it did?
The "tiny plug" was your term, when it was actually a full sized passenger capsule. And no, it used a lot less power than a locomotive.
So was air travel in the early days, your point is ?
The Green Eyed Monster reveals itself!
Badvok
Posts: 395 +217
So you couldn't find the NASA quote, you just made it up. % vacuum is meaningless, total nonsense.
captaincranky
Posts: 20,437 +9,394
To you maybe, for the sake of convenience.
Our Regional rail system stops every 4 blocks. It's ridiculous to consider a system like these "hyper loop farces" from work to home, or to a local stadium. If you evacuate 99% the air from a chamber, you have a vacuum, only a fool believes otherwise. They have a term for it, it's called, "a partial vacuum".
I fully expect, when future tests are done to increase speed, the vacuum will have to be much more complete.
So, if you want to go from Philly to NYC to catch a Broadway show, obviously a Hyper loop transport would be ideal. But face it, that's not a normal weekend for very many people, and so, impractical for day to day. travel and commuting You don't need anything like a hyper loop , to throw a few extra cars on a regional rail system, to get maybe 70,000 people to a sports complex, and then return them home in all different directions.
You still haven't given any thought to rights of way, or anything of the sort.
And like people here so often say of politicians, they're stupid, they're stupid, and they'll buy into anything. So, you really don't have to dazzle them with brilliance, just baffle them with bullsh!t, something which Musk has in abundance.
And no, I'm not jealous of Musk, and you certainly won't ever have to pry my lips off his a**, which I doubt can be said of you.
You've most likely never done much in the way of manual labor, in your entire life. Which is why it's so easy for you to say, "oh well, all 'we' have do do is dig a 200 mile long tunnel", while you sit on your a** playing games, or diddling with your phone.
Last edited:
wiyosaya
Posts: 11,604 +12,703
Good luck with your interpretation. All instances of something like this in the public domain are considered prior art.
wiyosaya
Posts: 11,604 +12,703
No physical object can be moved without acceleration. It is basic physics - specifically, Newton's Second Law of Motion. There are plenty of references out there that give the details.
Badvok
Posts: 395 +217
That's the point, the drive is external to the vehicle and hence doesn't need to be moved. Try learning to read before attempting to ridicule others.
Badvok
Posts: 395 +217
That is incredibly insulting, you know absolutely nothing about me. Go back to your cave.
captaincranky
Posts: 20,437 +9,394
Oh good, you finally got something it was saying, and it was intended by be incredibly insulting. .Moreover, I don't care. And BTW, my cave is here.
A body at rest tends to remain at rest. Energy can be kinetic or static. It doesn't matter whether force is produced by an object, or applied by forces outside of the object, if the object moves it overcomes static inertia. It is said to be "accelerating".
Now, these *****s who conducted this experiment, managed to get the object to "accelerated" to 200+ MPH, in just over a quarter of a mile. Gravity as we know it, still exists and acts upon the capsule in the tube. The means, you can't "accelerate" the capsule without multiple G forces acting upon the riders. In practical use, you won't be able to "accelerate" the capsule at anywhere the times turned in during the test. The object of the "test" was to generate "headlines". The same as Musk does when he goes out and pisses investor's money away, running quarter mile time trials with a Tesla. He's out to make the news. He likes to hear himself talk, as do you.
wiyosaya
Posts: 11,604 +12,703
I am sorry you feel that way.
The drive does not need to be moved, sure. But the vehicle does. It is the vehicle itself that requires the energy to move it. There is nothing that can change that fact that the vehicle takes energy to move it and in the process of moving the vehicle, the vehicle encounters acceleration.
As the equations of motion dictate, the small amount of mass saved compared to the amount of mass in the car on not having the drive on the car and in motion will save only small amounts of energy. The velocity squared factor is the driver in the energy equation.
captaincranky
Posts: 20,437 +9,394
How many people do you think it will take to explain Newton's laws to you, before you realize you have no idea what you're talking about?
BTW, here's an image of an Amtrak "Metroliner" on route:
The locomotives in current use are 52' long, the cars are 85' long. How many of these plug thingys do you think it would take to replace just one train?
And here's where the money comes from, for railroad, "improvements":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Rehabilitation_and_Improvement_Financing
Last edited:
D
DelJo63
PSST; GIGAWATTS buddy
Yes, all previous working implementations of the idea count as prior art. Ideas don't count as working implementations (although designs do).
captaincranky
Posts: 20,437 +9,394
I don't suppose you've given any consideration to the G forces generated by accelerating that rapidly?
I'm pretty sure that would dis-allow having "strap hangers", loose babies, and older people, older people with heart conditions, et al.
So, the antics and conditions of this test, are pretty much worthless, unless you are only "pretending you want to solve mass transit issues". It looks like a "toy train" for the elite, as opposed to a realistic solution to replacing trolley cars.
Also keep in mind, that our current system of rail routes, and their "rights of way", have been developed over the course of much more than a century, in different population conditions, and in conjunction with regard for existing structures.
If I were to make a comparison between this circus test, and transit reality it would be this; "just because a vehicle goes like a bat out hell in a quarter mile drag race, doesn't mean you can put it on a road course, and win there".
All of that notwithstanding, the electric locomotives on Amtrak's DC, Phila, NYC, (and beyond), corridor, develop about 6,000 horse power. But the trick is, they pull entire trains, and aren't masquerading as a tampon.
Everything the human race has developed in the way of transportation, we have either, drawn from the animal kingdom, or usurped. IE, we saw birds fly, we built machines with wings. IE, we made friends with horses.
In the case of the "hyper loop", the closest comparison which exists in nature, is the large intestine.Food is digested and turned into a high carbon solid, and then forced down the colon by muscles in the colon, feces aren't "self propelled". Say it ain't so!
Last edited:
Badvok
Posts: 395 +217
Unlike you, as a physics graduate, I fully understand Newton's laws, unfortunately there appear to be many people here who can't understand plain old English.
Acceleration = Force/Mass
Conventional loco hauled train - Mass = Engine(Drive) + Body + Fuel + Carriages
Electric loco hauled train - Mass = Engine + Body + Carriages
Electric train - Mass = Carriages + Smaller Engines
Hyperloop One - Mass = Carriage(s)
Any ***** can see that Hyperloop One is vastly more efficient at turning force(power) into motion due to the fact that less Mass needs accelerating.
Badvok
Posts: 395 +217
So says the one talking, and talking, and talking but refusing to listen when someone points out a mistake he made.
captaincranky
Posts: 20,437 +9,394
Gee, up until today, you never acknowledged that "acceleration" was even part of the equation, did you?
So did that "degree" of yours, just come in the mail yesterday?
wiyosaya
Posts: 11,604 +12,703
Lets look at this in a different way.
As I see it, hyperloop and the Large Hadron Collider are not unlike each other. The only basic difference is that the LHC is designed to operate by accelerating particles to near the speed of light. It goes without saying that the hyperloop will and can, at this point in the development of science and technology, never hope to even get the pod anywhere near that velocity.
All else considered, the pod in hyperloop is comparable to the particles in the LHC. Both the LHC and hyperloop operate at near vacuum though LHC is much closer to an ideal vacuum than hyperloop. Both LHC and the hyperloop require some sort of external magnets to keep the accelerated object(s) from hitting the wall of their enclosures.
In the LHC, if the vacuum fails, particles will collide with whatever gas was introduced in the failure and combine with or destroy the atoms in the gas. In the hyperloop, the worst that can happen with a vacuum failure is that the hyperloop will be required to run at a lesser velocity.
If the external magnets fail in the LHC, particles will collide with the chamber walls and, quite possibly, punch a hole in them. If the magnets fail in the hyperloop, the pod also will collide with the walls of the tube, and depending on its velocity at that moment, well, lets just say that things could easily get messy.
In many respects, the kind of technology that will be required to build the hyperloop is not unlike that employed in the LHC. That kind of technology is expensive, and in the case of the hyperloop, since no one has built anything like this so far, at least some of the technology required will need to be invented before it can be put into practice. Such development is typically very expensive because it is not yet in mass production. My bet is that the cost of implementing the hyperloop will be far in excess of the cost of the LHC.
As far as actually building the hyperloop, where will it go? Where will it be located? How much will it cost? Who will pay for it? I doubt even Musk has enough money to build more than one limited length hyperloop run. Hyperloop will also have to clear regulatory and political hurtles before it can ever be built. Musk is still subject to laws and regulations; people will not just jump because Musk says so, and if this is about Musk in your eyes, why?
What I have just covered is certainly part of why I don't see this getting that far very quickly. In NYS, they cannot even agree to fund construction of a high-speed rail system, like the bullet trains already operating elsewhere in the world, from NYC to Buffalo, and somehow, hyperloop is going to come in require perhaps much more land and much more investment than high speed rail and they would expect to convince NYS that it should invest in this? I expect that the arguments will be the same elsewhere.
Is it a cool idea? IMO, yes. Is it practical - well - since the technology is going to have to be invented, maybe not. Since there will be high costs associated with development, also maybe not. Since there will be political forces operating also, maybe not. Even if present railway lines were converted to hyperloop, the expense will likely be significantly higher than converting those same lines to high speed rail lines and there are already forces balking at that conversion.
Will hyperloop happen? Maybe someday. Maybe it will happen sooner than I think, maybe not.
As a physics major, surely you understand that for every doubling of velocity, four times the energy will be needed for the pod to reach that velocity. E=(1/2)m*v^2 in this case. So, accelerating the pod to whatever its final velocity will take energy to do so, no less energy than accelerating any similarly sized object to a similar velocity anywhere. As I implied before, the effect of the change in mass is directly proportional to the amount of mass saved - it is a linear relationship; however, changes in velocity have an exponential relationship to the amount of energy required. And as cranky stated, there will be limits in the amount of acceleration that you can impart to the passengers of the pod and still keep it safe. Essentially, as it stands right now, it is more of a rail gun than a viable transportation system.
One other thing, the external magnets are a necessity. While the magnets are the motor and they save weight of the pod by moving them from the train to the sides of the tube, how many times the amount of material will be needed to put the magnets outside of the pod along the tube? As I see it, this a factor in the cost of construction that may never be overcome by the increase in efficiency especially if we are talking about exotic magnetic materials like permalloy or supermalloy or some other similar magnetic alloy or superconducting magnets that require constant cooling to liquid nitrogen or colder temperatures.
Things like this take a significant amount of thought. While they are making strides towards a prototype, a prototype will be far from a safe and economically viable public hyperloop transportation system.
There are a lot of factors involved that make developing and implementing hyperloop a very difficult task at the least - perhaps not unlike the difficulties encountered during the development phase of NASA's Apollo program. At this point, I totally find myself agreeing with cranky in that this is purely for publicity. If it ever reaches the stage where it becomes a viable technology, the implementation of it will likely be as difficult as developing the prototype if not more so.
captaincranky
Posts: 20,437 +9,394
wiyosaya
Posts: 11,604 +12,703
I suppose our antagonist will then have fun refuting my latest post!
A more terse reply of mine got deleted that basically called him out for not being what our antagonist pretends to be. I guess the physics being taught in higher education these days is not what it used to be. Then again, maybe our antagonist went to a university that grades on a curve...Similar threads
