Nvidia doesn't need us anymore: How is the GeForce RTX 3080 12GB launching to zero reviews

Aus spot

Posts: 135   +130
Lots of comments from upset people. But no one has fully explained this free market idea. QP got the closest. So economics 101 for those that missed the class.

This is the result of a free market. Anyone arguing differently is an economic *****.

Freemarket is the exchange of goods, services and ideas at a price that can be negotiated freely.
Government regulation is essential to the modern free market, it provides the boundries and context of the market, things like tax, currency etc, no slavery, no child porn etc.

The ultimate end point of a freemarket is a monopoly, though it often preceded by duopoly or a low number of big players.

Competition is often the stated goal of a freemarket but it does not define what a freemarket is. For consumers competition is generally good, but shareholders it is generally bad. Freemarkets are defined as stated above by the boundaries government sets.

The concept of freemarket is when profits are unrealistically large, it encourages new entrants into the market. Ie free to enter. Anyone know of a new video card manufacturer entering the market?

However this is contrasted with the barriers to entry, the obstacles to enter a market, government regulations are always there, but capital normally being the big obstacle in many markets.

Another feature of a freemarket is being open to new ideas, think netflix. Which can kill off once dominent players, think blockbuster.

So a duopoly inflating prices for excess profits is typical of a freemarket, excess profits encourages new market entrants as is happening, but large barriers to entry in this sector is discouraging smaller entrants from directly competing against the existing players.

Thats the simple explanation.
 

Avro Arrow

Posts: 3,087   +3,985
TechSpot Elite
Profits are also a reflection of supply and demand - by deliberately limiting supply you can drive up the price and make more profit per unit. This is not an example of a free market at work but of deliberate market manipulation. The "free market" may always be right but this market is not a free one.
I agree. It hasn't been a "free" market in a long time. It's a market dominated by overly-huge multinational corporations. Venture capitalism is impossible at this point. Beware those who defend Neoliberalism because Neoliberalism is only "good" for those who are already wealthy. I write "good" in quotes because more often than not, their profit increase doesn't really benefit them one bit because there's no way that your lifestyle really changes once you have $20,000,000 in the bank simply by accumulating more.

Keynesian Economics is what we used to have. It's a far more effective way to implement capitalism than Neoliberalism ever was. It's what the Nordic countries still use and look at how great they are. The only metric in which they don't score highly is corruption. We could learn so much from them.
I called it a few months ago: It's not "only" miners either (Although those are healthy sales for them still) but the compute customers for data centers are quickly becoming the center of their concerns because they're making money by the truck loads working with them
I agree with you but it makes me wonder why nVidia scrapped Quadro.
What Nvidia is doing should not be a surprise anymore. If you were caught on tape that should be a final warning sign to treat Nvidia as they deserve, I mean like the blackmailer who in fact they are. You treat Nvidia too nicely after they embargoed and blackmailed you last year. Hope that in 2022 you will be more judicial against any Nvidia shady attempt. They prove it countless time that they are not playing fair or nice. Wish you good luck and to give us high quality reviews.
Yeah, I was completely floored when they said that it was better to buy the RTX 3080 (starting at $1,630) with 10GB than the RX 5800 XT (starting at $1,500) with 16GB. I just look at those and I could easily tell that the life of the RTX 3080 was severely limited by its 10GB framebuffer.
Spoken like a miner ...
You're a much nicer person than I am. I think that "miner" is not the word that I would have used. :laughing:
Bullcrap. In this case, as I see it, it is nWeedia taking advantage of the market situation to squeeze as much profits out of their customers as they believe they can. Profits are all they care about.
Yep. No matter what it is they do, all corporations are in the business of raking in as much as they can.
Back in the days of Compaq, Compaq did the same thing that nWeedia is doing right now, and Compaq, as a highly respected stand-alone brand that was widely recognized at the time as producing an excellent product, let their own brand recognition go to their heads. Compaq's prices were astronomical compared to alternatives on the market at the time, and the lower priced alternatives, including custom builds, were the choice that consumers turned to at the time. The result? Ask yourself, where is Compaq now? The answer is that it is a sub-brand of a company, HP, I think, that decided to buy it when it could not live up to its own Hubris, and it is hardly the "go to" brand it once used to be.
I remember that and I also remember how ironic it was that the reason Compaq was so successful in the first place was that IBM was doing that very thing and Compaq wasn't. HP discontinued Compaq so now they're both gone from the PC market.
And again, just because you own nWeedia cards does not mean that those same cards are the "go to" choice for everyone. IF prices were reasonable, I might buy one of these new cards, but, IMO, they are just not worth spending what it would cost for most of the components of a decent build on a GPU for that system. I am not interested in purchasing bragging rights or purchasing just because some reviewer somewhere says "its the best".
Narcissists always think that just because they like something that it's "obviously" the best, eh? Narcissists also try to impress people by telling them that they have two RTX 3090s. :laughing:
My bet, give it some more time, especially when nWeedia makes paper releases like this that it specifically holds back in all likelihood because it is totally afraid of negative reviews, and nWeedia will be the Compaq of the 2020s. And the "Free Market" will have spoken.
I can't agree. The difference between nVidia and Compaq is that Compaq was surrounded by competitors like the aforementioned Hewlett-Packard, Acer, Toshiba, Lenovo, Packard-Bell, Toshiba, Dell, Everex and Gateway. The only competitor to nVidia is ATi and (to some marginal degree, Intel) and when there are only two, no matter how bad one behaves, there are still fools who will only buy their products. Look at how successful Apple is no matter how many d!ck moves they pull.
I worked for a company that had 60,000+ employees and was recognized world-wide. IMO, they suffered from the same kind of Hubris as this, and I clearly saw that hubris while working there; they are now only a shadow of their former glory with around 1,200 employees.
Sounds a lot like General Motors. :laughing:
For a free market economy to operate as a free market you require free competition. Without free competition you end up with monopolies and cartels. These entities control the market to the point where free competition will be snuffed out at the nascent stage - such as buying up all the production capacity etc. This is not a free market - it is a controlled market by the only significant players.
Yup, they've become so powerful that instead of being forced to bend to the will of the market, they're able to bend the market to their will. That completely defeats the purpose of free enterprise to begin with. They also snuff out any attempts by upstarts so there's no more Venture Capitalism either.
AMD fans were screaming for years about how important the memory and 10GB on 3080 and 6GB on RTX 2060 is not enough
It isn't enough. If you think that it's enough when the competition's card has 60% more, then you're crazy.
They released 12GB version for both cards and it barely make any difference on average. So in other words, the original memory size was enough for these cards
Well, Far Cry 6 requires a MINIMUM buffer size of 11GB in order to use its HD textures. Some call Far Cry 6 an outlier but I have a different term for it; "Only the first to require that much VRAM, not the last." so I'd say that you're completely wrong.

Knowing that there is currently a Triple-A title out there that the RTX 3080 already cannot max out because you're forced to use the LD textures, do you still think that it's not a hindrance? Someone with an RX 6800 (not even a 6800 XT) can use the HD textures but someone who paid an extra $300 for an RTX 3080 can't. No amount of performance can replace the beauty of HD textures. I call that "HORRIBLE Decision-Making Skills", especially after seeing how nVidia screwed over the people who spent so much on Turing RTX 2080 Ti cards JUST before the RTX 3070 launch.
Yes - even those who pretend they know how it operates. :rolleyes:
I know how it operates and I know that it's completely different from how it's supposed to operate.
Do you have this speech on file and saved somewhere? Because it's getting pretty damned repetitive, tedious, and boring.
Cut and paste: The lazy man's way to "forum". :laughing:
I can hear you thinking to yourself, "hm, another article about high prices, and scarce availability, time for the big copy and paste about the 'free market always being right'".
You're probably giving too much credit there. You used the word "think". :laughing:
BTW, how are your "two 3090's" running? I'm sure "inquiring minds want to know". (y) (Y) .
What would we ever do without you Cap? 🤣
 

captaincranky

Posts: 19,162   +8,305
If I could buy a GTX-1650 or 1660 for MSRP ($160.00 & 220.00 (?)), I'd buy one just for the pure hell of it. In spite of the fact I have absolutely no use for it.
 

brucek

Posts: 1,293   +1,921
Far Cry 6 requires a minimum 11GB of VRAM to use the HD textures
First I'm hearing of this. And I'm suspicious, because that pack is available for the consoles, neither of which have (practically usable) 11GB VRAM.

And even just looking at PC, why would a developer choose a texture budget that is just over available VRAM on a large chunk of the (still overall tiny) installed GPU base that could use more demanding textures? Could it be the developer has a deal with AMD?

I've got a 3080 and I'm not going to sweat this one. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to dial in a good looking, high performing version to my tastes anyway if I ever decide to play this game.
 
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hahahanoobs

Posts: 4,675   +2,654
People don't become billionaires for being honest people. This is life. This is not news in any market.

Not gonna lie. Reviews since the pandemic are less about the product and more about expressing anger over not being able to buy a GPU at MSRP during the pandemic and a massive jump in mining. Recent reviews have been more negative than they are positive, unrelated to the products' performance and intended MSRP's. Everyone got excited when they saw $1200 2080Ti perf for $699 (or $599?) a year later with the 3070. Does that sound like a company out to scam you? No. First gen RTX cards were expensive as heck probably because Nvidia needed to make enough profit to put into R&D and larger orders to cut the price in half on second gen RTX GPUs. People think GPUs should be exempt from the effects of the pandemic for some odd reason. It's entitlement I have not seen before in the gaming industry. There are near empty car lots and massive stocks of cars that can't be sold waiting for microchips, because of the pandemic and I've yet to read articles on the subject where anyone was blaming carmakers as much as gamers are with dGPU's. It has even trickled down to the used car market with rising prices. More people need cars than GPUs, but who cares about them....

Last I heard, Nvidia GPU shipments were up 11% while AMD's dropped (8%?), yet Nvidia gets the brunt of the hate for both camps. How could you expect Nvidia to give you a GPU to review if reviews are mostly negative primarily focusing on the idea customers are intentionally being screwed over by said company? That's insane. I wouldn't give you a GPU either if you're using the reviews as opinion pieces that are full of accusations against my company.

Want things back to where they were pre-pandemic? Get vaccinated! Or wait. Quietly.
 

Neatfeatguy

Posts: 1,020   +1,877
Wut? People are buying nvidia cause their cards are by far the best in any and every metric. Its funny blaming nvidia consumers when you are an owner of a 5700xt. I mean really now? The black screen edition video card?
Also, funny you think a 6900xt is equal to a 3080. Yeah, right, until you try to play cyberpunk. And then you realize the 6900xt os 2 generations behind 😂

You should expand upon your "And then you realize the 6900xt os 2 generations behind" behind comment.

1) Do you mean in terms of relative performance in just CP2077 or overall?
2) Do you mean in terms of VRAM?
3) Do you mean because of proprietary software such as DLSS?
4) Do you mean because of RTRT capabilities?

Feel free to expand from there and list other thoughts about why the 6900XT is 2 generations behind. I'm curious as to why you think that and I'd be curious as to where you'd get your supporting info on.
 

wiyosaya

Posts: 8,266   +7,619
Now you've got it.

I find it so remarkable people are lined up to drop $1000 - $3000 on a "video card" so they can play video games or mine crypto (arguably more productive) yet it never crossed their mind that investing in the stock itself nets huge gain and dividends in most cases.

I've been investing since 2007 so I know it very well.

1 year ago Nvidia stock was 1/3rd what it is now.
Amazing. You actually think you know what other people are thinking? 🤣
 

amghwk

Posts: 1,236   +1,184
Blame it all on the fools, the impatients and those who buy just because they can, on all these recent state of obscenely bloated prices, nvidia's shrewed marketing and the "scalpers" phenomenon.

And don't believe anyone boasting about they accumulating the latest 3090s. This is the age of social media, where people can hide behind the forums and can write anything without showing proofs. Some kid living in a run-of-the mill neighbourhood can write anything from any phone, and there are none to check their credibility.

And as you all know, I have never seen a more delusional of grandeur troll than here.
 

yRaz

Posts: 4,813   +5,994
There not single game today that need 8GB on low (and even medium setting) at any resolution.

It is probably just memory allocation. Basically the game will just use the memory but it does not need it

Also, 1080p high setting usually need more video memory than 4K low setting anyway.
It helps with "1% lows" which is where you see the most stuttering. Videocards pre-allocate assets into VRAM so they don't have to reach into the HDD or SSD when they're needed. When I play at 4k the higher resolution allows me to keep the AA down. But you also need to consider the size of the image in VRAM. A 4k picture takes up more space than a 1080P and cards don't just instantly clear those from memory. In many cases they try to pre-render frames while also purging the previous frames. I'm not saying everyone needs 24GB of VRAM like on a 3090, but I think AMD has the right idea with 16 gigs at the moment. For 1, you have lazy developers and the extra memory helps brute force smooth gameplay but you also have longevity to think about. If you're like me and only upgrade you graphics card every 4-5 years, that 16 gigs is going to give me a better experience than the 10-12 gigs leading up to an upgrade. The 8 gigs on my 1070Ti was just fine when I got it but it's really starting to show it's age.

Now, granted, my situation is a bit different than most because I use a 4k TV and play at its native resolution to reduce input lag, but I certainly see my cards usability dropping with newer games. I've had to go from med-high settings to low-med settings over the life of the card for this reason alone.

The first game the comes to mind is Borderlands 2 where you can see the textures go from low to medium to high as the card purges the old textures and loads the new ones.
 

EdmondRC

Posts: 400   +580
I have a 3080 that I bought near launch for $749. It's not LHR and I could sell if on eBay for almost $2000. It will still sell for more than even these 12 gb cards I'm sure, if they are still LHR.
 

NerdelbaumFrink

Posts: 12   +8
Wow... I don't know if the article is worse or these comments are worse. Internet comments about economics always brings out the low functioning crowd. Who knew so many Harvard educated, triple PhD economists and Nobel Laureates were gracing this chat to inform us what "free markets" are or aren't. Amazing.

And this article is over stating the importance of tech reviews. They don't matter. At the very least, at this point in time. No review is going to have any affect whatsoever on the sales or widespread knowledge of these cards. You'll get the drivers eventually. You'll write very much the same shitty review, interjecting whatever whiny, complaining, outrage clickbait you can, and nobody's opinion on whether they're going to try to buy one or not will change based on any facet of it, simply because of the experience of trying to buy one of these cards right now.

Never mind the tinfoil hattery and outright "I'm a coward lashing out because I'm realizing I'm obsolete" antagonism of this article.
 

hahahanoobs

Posts: 4,675   +2,654
I don't object to Nvidia charging a little more for GPUs with a few more good cores. That's really all this new SKU is about, and while it's added to make more money for Nvidia, it's doing that in what I feel is an entirely legitimate way.
Limiting the amount of memory that can be attached to a GPU artificially, however, is something I can object to; GPU card makers should be free to hook up 24 GB to a 3060 if they feel like it, and if they have customers who would find it useful.
The current GPU shortage, though, is not due to any manipulation by Nvidia and AMD; the pandemic has created a level of demand which they cannot meet, because chip supplies from TSMC and Samsung are limited. That is the fact we need to focus on.
lol What?!
24GB on a 3060....
So you want to pay 3070+ price for a 24GB 3060 that performs like an 8GB 3060 card?

Um... are you okay?
 

Aus spot

Posts: 135   +130
Wow... I don't know if the article is worse or these comments are worse. Internet comments about economics always brings out the low functioning crowd. Who knew so many Harvard educated, triple PhD economists and Nobel Laureates were gracing this chat to inform us what "free markets" are or aren't. Amazing.

And this article is over stating the importance of tech reviews.

And it seems any articles bring out the trolls who like to lash everyone while providing no intellectual comment of their own.

Maybe have a read of your whole comment, think about any positive contribution you have provided (there is none) and next time feel free to leave these types of comments in your head.

If you think you can expand on freemarket, feel free to add your PhD comments. I kept my comments simplistic, but if you think this crowd need to hear your PhD comments go right ahead.

You have a PhD right? you mentioned PhD as no one else had.
 

Watzupken

Posts: 699   +586
The behaviour is nothing shocking to be honest. Nvidia has never portrayed themselves as the "good guys" to begin with. In my opinion, other companies are faring any better. If there is money to be made and after multiple times of price increase, but never really quenching the demand, they will just keep going on and on to produce more expensive products. After all, neither of their competitors are doing anything to start competing on prices.

But as I mentioned before, the outrageous prices are starting to dampen demand, particularly for gamers. Gamers generally don't make money by buying graphic cards, unlike miners which are using the GPUs for money making, thus, it is an easier decision for them to buy an overpriced GPU. After all, they will earn back the premium paid.
 

Watzupken

Posts: 699   +586
You won't find a review on the 3080 12GB version because you're going to see a performance gain over the 3080 10GB, just like we did with the 2060 12GB over the 2060 6GB - almost non-existent.

Maybe 3% performance gain for an extra $350+ price over a 3080 10GB.

No thank you, Nvidia. I don't know why anyone would want to spend an extra $100 per 1% performance gain over the 3080 10GB.

This I agree. The fact that the RTX 3080 Ti is up to 10% faster than the RTX 3080 is very telling of the performance of this in between SKU. The higher memory bandwidth is the lesser contributor to performance. A good example will be the RTX 3070 vs 3070 Ti where the GDDR6X barely made any difference despite the big jump in memory bandwidth.
 

NeoMorpheus

Posts: 1,393   +2,960
I swear, nVidia keeps screwing consumers and they keep coming back like battered spouses. What nVidia is showing us is the low opinion that THEY have of their own customers.
Yeap they do believe, wait, no, they know their customers are dumb and will continue bending over for them because today’s consumers no longer respect themselves, instead are blind fanatics to a brand.

What is worse is that you cant help these people. Cant teach them to open their eyes and place themselves first.

Really weird times.
 

Antias

Posts: 6   +5
I have wondered recently about the "other end" of all this supply and pricing issue...
The game developers and distributers themselves.
I.e. what impact is all this supply and pricing issue having on the developers of the games themselves? Is the gaming industry taking a huge profit loss because less people are buying AAA titles because they cant run the damn games (supply/pricing) and thus arent buying the games. Is the gaming industry pushing back on nVidia/AMD/Intel to do more so they dont go down the gurgler themselves...
Are there significant enough impacts to the gaming software development chain that there is a follow-on impact to the GPU manufacturing process, sort of like a vicious cycle making matters even worse....
I know I'm not explaining this very well, my apologies, but I think the smart ones amongst you will understand what I'm getting at and perhaps be able to inform myself (and potentially others) if this is a ligitimate issue or just a drop in the ocean compared to the other fully detailed and exhaustively described issues above....

(PS. still hanging in there with my 1660Ti bought for $330 AU when first released - I guess I'm one of the lucky ones)
 

rmcrys

Posts: 296   +239
The Free market is always right.

No it is not. The free market as you mean it is only right if you think on profit. As a stockholder of course you give a cr.p to buyers, you care their money. Companies that traditionally didn't care about costumers but had a dominant position in the market, when someone new comes above, they fall very quickly (example Nokia; example Intel if AMD could be above much longer and making contacts with big brands).

Conclusion: many stockholders talk about free market, 1 year warranty, bla bla bla and complain for example from European Union regulation rules (which protect costumers) just because they want money; everyone else care many things more. A good company is a company that maximizes profit but still taking care of the costumers (as Apple a long time ago did as an example).