Russia warns US, again: SpaceX satellites used for military purposes may become targets

[midian182]

What just happened? Not for the first time, Russia has warned that the use of SpaceX and other commercial satellites for military purposes by the United States makes them legitimate targets. The news comes soon after a report that SpaceX is building a network of hundreds of spy satellites under contract with a US intelligence agency.

Earlier this month, Reuters reported that SpaceX's Starshield business unit was building a spy network under a $1.8 billion contract signed in 2021 with the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), an intelligence agency that manages spy satellites.

The aim of the program is to advance the ability of the US government to quickly spot potential targets almost anywhere on the globe.

Responding to that report, Russia's Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said "we are aware of Washington's efforts to attract the private sector to serve its military space ambitions."

Zakharova added that the satellites could "become a legitimate target for retaliatory measures, including military ones."

SpaceX has supplied over 42,000 Starlink terminals to Ukraine and maintained them since Russia invaded, helping keep the nation's critical infrastructure and its citizens online.

This isn't the first time Russia has threatened Starlink satellites. During a United Nations working group meeting on reducing space threats in 2022, Konstantin Vorontsov, a member of the Russian delegation, said that the country "would like to underline an extremely dangerous trend that goes beyond the harmless use of outer space technologies and has become apparent during the events in Ukraine. Namely, the United States and its allies use the elements of civilian, including commercial, infrastructure in outer space for military purposes." The Russian Foreign Ministry member and head of the country's UN Office for Disarmament Affairs delegation added the warning that "quasi-civilian infrastructure" may become a legitimate target for retaliation.

At the start of last year, SpaceX stopped Ukraine from using its Starlink service to control drones, noting that the system was never meant to be weaponized.

In February, SpaceX CEO Elon Musk was forced to deny claims that Starlink is being used by Russian forces in occupied territories of Ukraine, something the Ukrainian Defense Intelligence Agency (GUR) claimed to have proof of. "To the best of our knowledge, no Starlinks have been sold directly or indirectly to Russia," Musk said. House Democrats are investigating SpaceX regarding the reports.

It's not just Russia that has raised concerns with SpaceX. A paper by government-affiliated researchers published by China's Modern Defence Technology in 2022 said the Asian nation should develop methods to destroy its satellites, which had brought hidden dangers and challenges to the country.

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https://www.techspot.com/news/102332-russia-warns-us-again-spacex-satellites-used-military.html

 

[wiyosaya]

Putin is really upping his "war" rhetoric. If he thinks that he/Russia are going to survive another war, especially a war involving nuclear conflict, I think he is fooling himself. It is likely that he will survive for a while, however, the damage done would be irreparable. Modern society is too interdependent for him/Russia to survive beyond when his stockpile of supplies run out. IMO, Putin is a megalomaniac, and the world would be better off without him.

 

[winjer]

Not eve Stalin was so gun ho, as Putin. What a *****.

 

[mbk34]

It would be far easier if congress allowed the shipment of stockpiled artillery shells to Ukraine. Then Ukraine would be happy to sort out Russia directly. The current deadlock is embarrassing to those who believe in democracy.

 

[Theinsanegamer]

I'd like to see him try, given by his own admission his air force keeps getting shot down by a drunken Vlad and his buddies. More hilarious embarrassment always goes over well!

It would be far easier if congress allowed the shipment of stockpiled artillery shells to Ukraine. Then Ukraine would be happy to sort out Russia directly. The current deadlock is embarrassing to those who believe in democracy.

So does "democracy" now equal "unwavering support for this war effort"?

It would seem there are plenty of people who just...dont want america to get more involved in a foreign conflict, after spending the last 50 years spending tens of billions on foreign conflicts. If the rumor of the French sending troops to Ukraine is true, then it would validate all being said that this is just history repeating itself....again. All this over a mud pit that has been fought over for over 100 years, just like the sand pit that is the Middle East.

Many also havent forgotten that, prior to the invasion, Ukraine was a "den of huite supremacy" that hosted "disturbing numbers of not-sees". TIME magazine, VICE, CNN, all had stories about how bad and evil Ukraine and Zelensky were, how corrupt they were, ece. People havent just forgotten that. Nor have people forgotten how many politicians had their greedy paws in corrupt dealings in the country prior to this.

I like the idea of sending them more stuff, mostly because my defense contractor stocks print MINTS every time it happens, and embarrassing Putin is funny. Ukraine is doomed no matter who wins. But I'm not so pig headed as to believe that opposition to the war effort doesnt have a strong point nor valid arguments.

 

[Kotters]

I dunno, sending equipment designed and built to fight Russians over for other people to use to fight Russians instead of spending time, money, and effort to decommission them seems good to me. Every dollar spent shipping that stuff to Ukraine is five dollars saved having to hedge against Russian regional influence in the decades to come.

 

[mbk34]

I'd like to see him try, given by his own admission his air force keeps getting shot down by a drunken Vlad and his buddies. More hilarious embarrassment always goes over well!

So does "democracy" now equal "unwavering support for this war effort"?

It would seem there are plenty of people who just...dont want america to get more involved in a foreign conflict, after spending the last 50 years spending tens of billions on foreign conflicts. If the rumor of the French sending troops to Ukraine is true, then it would validate all being said that this is just history repeating itself....again. All this over a mud pit that has been fought over for over 100 years, just like the sand pit that is the Middle East.

Many also havent forgotten that, prior to the invasion, Ukraine was a "den of huite supremacy" that hosted "disturbing numbers of not-sees". TIME magazine, VICE, CNN, all had stories about how bad and evil Ukraine and Zelensky were, how corrupt they were, ece. People havent just forgotten that. Nor have people forgotten how many politicians had their greedy paws in corrupt dealings in the country prior to this.

I like the idea of sending them more stuff, mostly because my defense contractor stocks print MINTS every time it happens, and embarrassing Putin is funny. Ukraine is doomed no matter who wins. But I'm not so pig headed as to believe that opposition to the war effort doesnt have a strong point nor valid arguments.

The war in Ukraine won't stop in Ukraine. Russia's intention is to take back all of the countries that were once a part of the USSR which includes countries that are now a part of NATO. The choice at the moment is to back Ukraine in it's fight against Russia or wait and then have to send in US troops (along with troops from across NATO) when Russia invades Poland, Latvia, Estonia or Lithuania. It seems like a really easy choice to me.

There's also the message you're sending the world in doing nothing. You're telling certainly China it can take Taiwan. It's all well and good spending a fortune on armaments but if internal politics stops you from ever using them then you might as well of invested the money in something useful. Doing nothing also sends a strong message to your allies - can America be trusted? I suspect the answer is no at the moment.

I don't believe Zelensky has ever been charged with corruption but I'll accept this part of the world has never been squeaky clean but it's not like America where the former president has been charged with 34 counts of fraud, 10 counts of racketeering and a separate charge for insurrection. I understand he's currently finding it difficult raising the $460m he needs to pay in fines.

 

[toooooot]

Not eve Stalin was so gun ho, as Putin. What a *****.

Stalin died prepping for the next big war. Stalin would have conquered much more land if it was not for Germany striking first in ww2. Putin is a coldhearted criminal, but he did not kill millions of people unless you count misery and early death from lack of quality medicine and food a murder. Stalin killed many more than Hitler ever could, with the only difference being he killed most of those he ruled while Hitler chose other nationalities.

 

[ddferrari]

So Putin is threatening the US again, despite struggling in little ol' Ukraine?

His resources are so depleted, Sweden could probably swoop in and take over Moscow. If NATO got involved - GAME OVER. Paper tiger.

 

[Endymio]

I dunno, sending equipment designed and built to fight Russians over for other people to use to fight Russians instead of spending time, money, and effort to decommission them seems good to me. Every dollar spent shipping that stuff to Ukraine is five dollars saved having to hedge against Russian regional influence in the decades to come.

First of all, the "we're only sending old, decommissioned gear" is utter rubbish. Over half the US aid to Ukraine is in the form of direct cash payments, and US military contractors are working overtime to craft brand-new munitions and weapon systems, as well as depleting our own reserves drastically.

Furthermore, the "we're weakening Russia" hype is nonsense as well. Russia's active military count today is 1.5M troops, up from 1.02M before the war, and -- for the first time in 30 years -- Russia is drastically increasing its military budget, rather than the slow decline its seen since the fall of the USSR.

Even more importantly, the Russian military in 2020 had never fought a modern war. Today, they have solid experience in fighting against US military tactics -- those we've been teaching Ukraine in joint war exercises since 2014 -- as well as priceless data on the actual capabilities of the US's latest military weapon systems.

Finally, all of this is moot in the final analysis. Russia has 2,000 tactical and op-tac nuclear weapons, and a total nuclear arsenal exceeding 7,000 warheads -- more than all the rest of the world combined. Despite what the unicorn-and-rainbow crowd believes, Russia can and will use them to defend Russian territory. And the primary purpose of annexing Donetsk and Luhansk -- which Putin long resisted throughout the decade-long Ukrainian civil war -- was to make the use of such weapons in Ukraine legal under the Russian constitution.

 

[gollum21]

I'd like to see him try

Well, Russia is more sophisticated with its cyber than its artillery driven ground troops. It's likely Russia already has targeted Satellites since defense would spend more time patching them given warning...lol

Or at least when they say they'll go after "military" satellites it's because they've already targeted commercial ones and got most of what their going to get. It's mostly pysops probably, they aren't telling the people who can do something about it what they don't already know.

 

[Kotters]

Lol

 

[kiwigraeme]

First of all, the "we're only sending old, decommissioned gear" is utter rubbish. Over half the US aid to Ukraine is in the form of direct cash payments, and US military contractors are working overtime to craft brand-new munitions and weapon systems, as well as depleting our own reserves drastically.

Furthermore, the "we're weakening Russia" hype is nonsense as well. Russia's active military count today is 1.5M troops, up from 1.02M before the war, and -- for the first time in 30 years -- Russia is drastically increasing its military budget, rather than the slow decline its seen since the fall of the USSR.

Even more importantly, the Russian military in 2020 had never fought a modern war. Today, they have solid experience in fighting against US military tactics -- those we've been teaching Ukraine in joint war exercises since 2014 -- as well as priceless data on the actual capabilities of the US's latest military weapon systems.

Finally, all of this is moot in the final analysis. Russia has 2,000 tactical and op-tac nuclear weapons, and a total nuclear arsenal exceeding 7,000 warheads -- more than all the rest of the world combined. Despite what the unicorn-and-rainbow crowd believes, Russia can and will use them to defend Russian territory. And the primary purpose of annexing Donetsk and Luhansk -- which Putin long resisted throughout the decade-long Ukrainian civil war -- was to make the use of such weapons in Ukraine legal under the Russian constitution.

You know this is something we arenot going to agree on
Only relevant point is Russia's Nukes

More banging the table with a third shoe. Russia/Putain is full of **** ( pardon my french ) . They bluff this bluff that.
No matter how tight Putain holds the reigns , he has to keep enough elites happy , unless he wants to be hung like and Italien or Iraqi dictator.

Never accept Russian bargaining in life - a simple rule if any one tries it on you .

This one million plus army of badly trained conscripts , only days away from frontline after enlistment
How's the Black Sea navy going , the early warning planes? Pump them out of your factories in no time do we?
Whole depots of reserves are now sitting empty . yay finally got a a few cities at huge costs ,Generals need medals and canon fodder for the meat grinder.
How are those crappy Nork Artillery shells - can't just kill indiscriminately like you did in the beginning , in Syria , Afganistan and Chechnya .

The one thing Russia is relying on is a huge advantage in manpower over Ukraine . Russia has nevered cared about it's low level troops . Never . Russia has been barbaric killing machine for centuries.

Russia is creating new tech , but seems Ukraine is smarter and better at it . Ukraine drones are coming in huge waves now , and will only increase. plus huge advantage to be supplied by democratic countries.
Russia has to now defend all its petroleum distillation plants.
Russian targeting apartments , schools. hospitals shows stupidity. Thinking this will cause Ukraine to sue for peace.- How did that work for Germans or even English ( only targeted bombing mattered , not Dresden fire bombing ) - unless you go Nukes

Anyway Russian has to limit it's once mighty artillery , they can only fire limited rounds before scooting .

Another year at this rate Russian Tanks/BMP will be at serious low levels .
That defence spending means less money for other needs. Russian can only produce so many tanks etc / week
It is now harder to Russia to sell it's oil and gas from surviving refineries . Rationing is now happening in the east of Russia

Anyway Ukraine and the West will know what Russia has left and can manufacture
Ukraine drones can go 1000Km , I'm sure that will get longer
I'm sure Ukraine will target the Baltic Fleet as well
Remind me of Russian Navy battles have they ever won one , China won't will it's crappy fleet - won't even set sail for Taiwan as too risky in todays battles

Remind why so many have to die on both sides . Was it Nazis , was it because some Russians live in the east of Ukraine . Must be annoying for putin he can't invade Estoniaetc
Finland would whip Russia so bad men against simple country folk .
Why is Finland is so much more wealthy with far less resources than neighbouring Karelia

Russia is a joke - they should all be well off, long lived and educated . yet most are poor , die early and brainwashed

Most of us want the best for Russia . It chose not to prosper like other former USSR vassals

 

[Shaitan]

First of all, the "we're only sending old, decommissioned gear" is utter rubbish. Over half the US aid to Ukraine is in the form of direct cash payments, and US military contractors are working overtime to craft brand-new munitions and weapon systems, as well as depleting our own reserves drastically.

Furthermore, the "we're weakening Russia" hype is nonsense as well. Russia's active military count today is 1.5M troops, up from 1.02M before the war, and -- for the first time in 30 years -- Russia is drastically increasing its military budget, rather than the slow decline its seen since the fall of the USSR.

Even more importantly, the Russian military in 2020 had never fought a modern war. Today, they have solid experience in fighting against US military tactics -- those we've been teaching Ukraine in joint war exercises since 2014 -- as well as priceless data on the actual capabilities of the US's latest military weapon systems.

Finally, all of this is moot in the final analysis. Russia has 2,000 tactical and op-tac nuclear weapons, and a total nuclear arsenal exceeding 7,000 warheads -- more than all the rest of the world combined. Despite what the unicorn-and-rainbow crowd believes, Russia can and will use them to defend Russian territory. And the primary purpose of annexing Donetsk and Luhansk -- which Putin long resisted throughout the decade-long Ukrainian civil war -- was to make the use of such weapons in Ukraine legal under the Russian constitution.

As an Eastern European which benefited the "Golden Era" of communism, I wish these American republican isolationist pro-Russian puppets would live for a single month under the 2 hours of Electrical energy per day, 4 hours TV and continuous orwellian regime.
Were it not for the US, Europe would have fallen to the Naz1s and later the commies gave us hell for 45 years.
No price is too big to get rid of Ruzz1a forever.

 

[Endymio]

I wish these American republican isolationist pro-Russian puppets would live for a single month under the 2 hours of Electrical energy per day, 4 hours TV and continuous orwellian regime.

Actually, I was born into that Orwellian regime of the USSR. Its worst years by far were under Stalin and Beria, two Georgians, and Khrushchev and Brezhnev, both Ukrainians. Luckily that regime fell apart -- Russia actually revolted from it before Ukraine and most other Republics.

As for poor electric and TV service, as well as corrupt regimes, Ukraine certainly holds the title there. There's a reason that -- even today, with a war on -- millions of Ukrainian citizens live and work in Russia. The reverse of that was never true.

Were it not for the US, Europe would have fallen to the Naz1s

You mean the Nazis that sent 100 divisions to fight against Russia, when they sent 6 to the Western Front? The Nazis that were aided by half of Ukraine, including the infamous Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera, who today is a national hero of Ukraine?

 

[Endymio]

More banging the table with a third shoe. Russia/Putain is full of **** ( pardon my french ) . They bluff this bluff that.

Until they don't. There's a reason Russia hasn't used its heavy weaponry in Ukraine -- carpet-bombing entire cities like (the US did in places like Mosul) -- or its arsenal of NBC weapons. Simply because they haven't felt threatened. Despite the missives you read from the Ukrainian MoD, Russia's essentially achieved all its objectives for the war: control of Luhansk, most of Donetsk, and the land bridge to Crimea.

Russian targeting apartments , schools. hospitals shows stupidity.

Which is why they're not doing it. It always amuses me that -- in literally every war of the last two centuries -- both sides accuse the other of this, and yet people still fall for it. One of the earliest of Ukraine's accusations turned out, when investigated by the UN, to be an off-course Ukrainian SAM that struck an apartment building. Ukraine's claim that a "Russian missile" killed two people in Poland later turned out to be (according to NATO at least) Ukraine's own air defense system. And one of the most famous cases of Ukraine accusing Russia of targeting a school was quickly retracted when reams of video surfaced of dead Ukrainian soldiers being pulled from that school.

As for the other incidents, do you really believe that, when Ukraine shoots down a few dozen incoming missiles and drones, they just magically vanish into thin air, rather than veering off course, and quite often hitting some unintended target?

No matter how tight Putain holds the reigns , he has to keep enough elites happy

And those elites are the ones who've been clamoring for years for Putin to take action against NATO's so-called "anaconda strategy".

Russia is creating new tech , but seems Ukraine is smarter and better at it .

You mean, when some newly-drafted Ukrainian presses the big red start button on that US-made cruise missile, fed targeting data by the US spy satellite array?

 

[Disiw]

So Putin is threatening the US again, despite struggling in little ol' Ukraine?

His resources are so depleted, Sweden could probably swoop in and take over Moscow. If NATO got involved - GAME OVER. Paper tiger.

Sweden take over Moscow? Yeah if they want Tsar Bomba in the face. Not going to happen. Russia is not as depleted as you think.

It takes one country to do something stupid at this point.
Russia will do nothing if NATO and US does nothing.

 

[mbk34]

NATO's so-called "anaconda strategy"

Why would anyone in Europe want to invade Russia or take anything from you??? For decades you've been building walls to stop your own people from escaping. Most countries want to join NATO so they're protected from you guys! Sweden and Finland have joined simply because you invaded Ukraine and this has expanded your border with NATO by 833 miles (1330km).

You guys claimed you were denazifying (is that a word?) Ukraine but you seem to be just talking the coal and gas regions while trying to hold the naval base at Sevastopol - I'm not sure why as you don't appear to have many ships left. The towns in these areas haven't been liberated but just reduced to rubble.

You appear to think of Russia as a superpower but it's GDP is well behind many individual countries in Europe. Economically you seem to have issues as most of the skilled jobs, even those in the oil industry, were done by foreign contractors who will no longer work there. Your exporting of armaments has taken a huge hit (over 50% drop) with countries questioning whether they're worth purchasing. In business and politics Russia has lost all trust. Even the population in Russia is starting to shrink due to poor demographics though the meat wave tactics probably don't help either.

Russia's troubles are not due to an "anaconda strategy" by NATO but a suicide strategy by Putin. I feel a bit sorry for the Russian people.

Russia will do nothing if NATO and US does nothing.

Unfortunately Russia has done something, they invaded a democracy in Europe.

 

[Disiw]

Why would anyone in Europe want to invade Russia or take anything from you??? For decades you've been building walls to stop your own people from escaping. Most countries want to join NATO so they're protected from you guys! Sweden and Finland have joined simply because you invaded Ukraine and this has expanded your border with NATO by 833 miles (1330km).

You guys claimed you were denazifying (is that a word?) Ukraine but you seem to be just talking the coal and gas regions while trying to hold the naval base at Sevastopol - I'm not sure why as you don't appear to have many ships left. The towns in these areas haven't been liberated but just reduced to rubble.

You appear to think of Russia as a superpower but it's GDP is well behind many individual countries in Europe. Economically you seem to have issues as most of the skilled jobs, even those in the oil industry, were done by foreign contractors who will no longer work there. Your exporting of armaments has taken a huge hit (over 50% drop) with countries questioning whether they're worth purchasing. In business and politics Russia has lost all trust. Even the population in Russia is starting to shrink due to poor demographics though the meat wave tactics probably don't help either.

Russia's troubles are not due to an "anaconda strategy" by NATO but a suicide strategy by Putin. I feel a bit sorry for the Russian people.

Unfortunately Russia has done something, they invaded a democracy in Europe.

Ukraine was and is not a democrazy. Corruption was a huge problem and there's a reason they never were allowed to join the EU.

 

[netman]

"Russia has warned that the use of SpaceX and other commercial satellites for military purposes by the United States makes them legitimate targets."

We have enough exploitation of Planet Earth Land by US... We don't need the same for Planet Earth Space...!

 

[mbk34]

Ukraine was and is not a democrazy. Corruption was a huge problem and there's a reason they never were allowed to join the EU.

Ukraine was a democracy though, I'll admit, not a particularly good one. It isn't a democracy at the moment because it's on a war footing as Russia has invaded it. Corruption is certainly a problem in Ukraine but it's far better than the corruption in Russia. Democracy in Russia is a joke when the main political opponent is jailed and then killed.

 

[wiyosaya]

Actually, I was born into that Orwellian regime of the USSR.

Ah, that explains things. Did you leave? If you did, IMO, it never left you which shows in your attitude towards authoritarian figures.

Its worst years by far were under Stalin and Beria, two Georgians, and Khrushchev and Brezhnev, both Ukrainians. Luckily that regime fell apart -- Russia actually revolted from it before Ukraine and most other Republics.

But somehow Russia is better now? Laughable when the dictator in charge holds "elections" between him and his puppets, elections where people are likely afraid to vote anyone else but dear deluded leader, and where conscripted Russians fled the country like rats from a sinking ship. If that, especially conscripted Russians leaving, doesn't say things about dear deluded leader, I don't know what does.

As for poor electric and TV service, as well as corrupt regimes, Ukraine certainly holds the title there. There's a reason that -- even today, with a war on -- millions of Ukrainian citizens live and work in Russia. The reverse of that was never true.

Things in that part of the world have never been that good. Sure, there are those in the west who would like better for the Ukraine; however, one thing is for sure, it will never get better under Russian leadership. If the opposite were the case, one would think that it would only make sense that the Ukrainian people would welcome the Russians with open arms. We have not seen that happen.

You mean the Nazis that sent 100 divisions to fight against Russia, when they sent 6 to the Western Front? The Nazis that were aided by half of Ukraine, including the infamous Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera, who today is a national hero of Ukraine?

So when are you going to join the fight for your homeland?

I wish you well. Someday, you might find that better place - in your own heart.

 

[Endymio]

Ukraine was a democracy though, I'll admit, not a particularly good one. It isn't a democracy at the moment because it's on a war footing as Russia has invaded it. Corruption is certainly a problem in Ukraine but it's far better than the corruption in Russia. Democracy in Russia is a joke when the main political opponent is jailed and then killed.

Democracy was overthrown in Ukraine during the 2014 coup, when the democratically elected leader fled an ultranationalist mob. The incoming regime banned their largest political party outright, jailed all the opposition leaders they could lay their hands on, then began brutally repressing their ethnic minority population, in the name of 'racial purity' for Ukraine. That sparked a decade-long civil war, and one in which the UN, the EU, and even our own US Congress condemned the ethnic cleansing-style attacks by Ukrainian paramilitary groups upon civilians.

That regime was replaced by Zelensky, who won his election based on the promise to end the war in Donbass. Once elected, he immediately reneged on that promise, signaled his intent to abrogate the Minsk Accords, massed troops for a large surge in the region, and even stated publicly his intent to re-acquire nuclear weapons and attack Russia directly. The final nail in the coffin was Joe Biden's public statements that NATO membership for Ukraine was "in Ukraine's own hands". When Kamala Harris repeated his assurances to the Munich Security Conference -- Russia invaded.

Zelensky used the invasion as a pretext to consolidate power -- he banned all non state-run media in Ukraine, banned all the major opposition political parties, banned the nation's largest church for 'disloyalty' and arrested thousands for publicly criticizing the regime. He has suspended all elections, and with his party utterly controlling parliament and refusing to lift the state of emergency or amend the law to allow elections regardless, it seems clear he'll remain in power indefinitely. Rather like Putin -- but we don't send Putin hundreds of billions of dollars of cash and weapons.

 

[Endymio]

So when are you going to join the fight for your homeland?

You're offensive. I've been a US citizen for, I suspect, longer than you've been alive. And -- unlike yourself -- I understand the founding principles of the US, and why it's important to uphold them. Why not try it yourself sometime?

 

[Endymio]

it will never get better under Russian leadership. If the opposite were the case, one would think that it would only make sense that the Ukrainian people would welcome the Russians with open arms. We have not seen that happen.

Such astounding ignorance. The citizens of Crimea welcomed Russian leadership with open arms, by a vote of 98% to 2% ... and the standard of living there rose sharply once control was transferred. Crimea actually first voted to leave Ukraine in 1991, the exact same year Ukraine voted to separate from Russia. Ukraine gave them the finger, as they did when voted similarly in 1994 and 1996.