Star Citizen developers roll back roadmap features due to high user expectations

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Puiu

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I been a support since about 2015 and played the alpha and enjoy the potential I see. People gotta keep in mind a lot of the tech need to make the game CIG is making themselves, where other games already have the resources. Sure it's taking a long time but it doesn't mean you have to slander CIG and what there trying to do
Results are all that meter. If they can't deliver a good game then the "tech" is worthless.
 

Puiu

Posts: 5,550   +4,518
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I welcome the change. I think anyone who is a software developer will agree that they over communicated - and wasted time doing so. Things will constantly change - especially in a highly complex project with many devs working on it concurrently. Rather focus on what is done - because that is all that matters.

A few patches ago they tried to iron out bugs to prove that they have already built a game that out does any other game... and it did... I mined over 7 000 000 UEC with my mining ship, did some cargo trading. After that patch, more bugs came in as they were dependent on other internal components that were not ready yet... So to me they have already proven they can do it.. Its just taking time for the bigger vision. Yes it is frustrating, but moaning tantrum kiddies create the toxic environment that made some of their good devs leave.
The problem is that they worked on the roadmap more than the game. And a few years ago they promised that the roadmap will only be filled with features and deadlines they can 100% fulfil (the rest of the work is hidden). But as it turns out, they can't deliver even a heavily curated roadmap.

It's not "frustrating", that level of grief ended many years ago, now it's just a scam. Excuses like "big vision" have no meaning.
 

whateversa

Posts: 80   +97
And a few years ago they promised that the roadmap will only be filled with features and deadlines they can 100% fulfil
I'd like to see you provide evidence of that.

now it's just a scam
Delayed and underestimated software projects are not scams. Underestimating the complexity of a project happens all the time - who else has ever built something like Star Citizen? How do you estimate work for something you yourself and no one else has ever done before...

I understand people being frustrated and annoyed that things are taking long - so am I, but for the community to turn so toxic and offensive is making everything worse. There are many cases where good staff are lost because of such things - spanning various industries. What coder wants to build something great for a bunch of brats that do nothing but insult and moan about them? So yes, the community is a problem in many games.
 

Puiu

Posts: 5,550   +4,518
TechSpot Elite
I'd like to see you provide evidence of that.


Delayed and underestimated software projects are not scams. Underestimating the complexity of a project happens all the time - who else has ever built something like Star Citizen? How do you estimate work for something you yourself and no one else has ever done before...

I understand people being frustrated and annoyed that things are taking long - so am I, but for the community to turn so toxic and offensive is making everything worse. There are many cases where good staff are lost because of such things - spanning various industries. What coder wants to build something great for a bunch of brats that do nothing but insult and moan about them? So yes, the community is a problem in many games.
The roadmap talks in question were from 2018-2019. In 2020 they made a "new roadmap" which put the first quadrant in the roadmap at 90% full feature release chance and the second quadrant at 70%. They never got close to those numbers. It's in their blog post from 2020.

Dev delays are not scams, the monetisation and the things they are doing make it a scam. You are right, the SC community accepting this is a problem. It gives a pass to all devs to f around while asking for more money instead of delivering.

As it stands, if SC doesn't continue making this much money from donations in the next 10 years, it will never be finished (playable start from finish beta). The sooner you understand this, the sooner you'll notice that something is incredibly wrong.
 

whateversa

Posts: 80   +97
The roadmap talks in question were from 2018-2019. In 2020 they made a "new roadmap" which put the first quadrant in the roadmap at 90% full feature release chance and the second quadrant at 70%. They never got close to those numbers. It's in their blog post from 2020.

Dev delays are not scams, the monetisation and the things they are doing make it a scam. You are right, the SC community accepting this is a problem. It gives a pass to all devs to f around while asking for more money instead of delivering.

As it stands, if SC doesn't continue making this much money from donations in the next 10 years, it will never be finished (playable start from finish beta). The sooner you understand this, the sooner you'll notice that something is incredibly wrong.
I totally disagree with you.

1) You are not in a position to say they 'f around'. How are you qualified to say that? Did you perform an audit with internal access? Are you even a software dev? Do you call Battlefield 2042 a scam? Cause that is what happens when people release unfinished games when devs don't control their own studio.

2) You have not provided relevant evidence. In no world would it ever have made sense for any dev team to make such promises anyways. There are internal goals and they keep shifting as the project progresses as it makes sense. That is not limited to gaming development.

3) Inviting people to fund a dream game does not make it a scam. They are not hiding things from people. Building something that no one has done before will come with unexpected issues.
4) They are not increasing the scope based on funding - that ended a very long time ago.

If anything, they have made too much effort to be transparent. Your post is a perfect example of why they have to stop providing more info - cause you guys twist everything up and go toxic on devs.
 
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Puiu

Posts: 5,550   +4,518
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I totally disagree with you.

1) You are not in a position to say they 'f around'. How are you qualified to say that? Did you perform an audit with internal access? Are you even a software dev? Do you call Battlefield 2042 a scam? Cause that is what happens when people release unfinished games when devs don't control their own studio.

2) You have not provided relevant evidence. In no world would it ever have made sense for any dev team to make such promises anyways. There are internal goals and they keep shifting as the project progresses as it makes sense. That is not limited to gaming development.

3) Inviting people to fund a dream game does not make it a scam. They are not hiding things from people. Building something that no one has done before will come with unexpected issues.
4) They are not increasing the scope based on funding - that ended a very long time ago.

If anything, they have made too much effort to be transparent. Your post is a perfect example of why they have to stop providing more info - cause you guys twist everything up and go toxic on devs.
Do I need qualifications to understand that they are f-ing around? Just so you know I am a team leader in the company I work for developers and I know perfectly well what a failed management does to a project. They have mangled the project so much that they created an impossible situation where they can't deliver on anything and the scope keeps growing. I pity those devs that need to listen to Chris's demands.

FYI feature creep and scope are still increasing (beyond the game "features" they keep adding/changing). It's impossible not to these days.

For example they'll have to move to new Vulkan versions (didn't they announce gen12?) which will allow devs to change the rendering pipeline to include things like ray-tracing/DLSS/FSR and will also allow them to make it much more multithreaded (god knows they need all of the perf improvements they can get).

As time goes by they will need to change old legacy code. Things that are new today can be obsolete in 5 years and new GPU features will continue to appear all the time (soon we'll get direct storage support in windows). Changing legacy code for important systems is and will always be a time consuming and bug ridden process.

TL;DR they had to make the game a scam to support their development which is extremely costly and mismanaged. They know they can't deliver so they focus on taking your money first and the rest second.

I don't think you understand just how much work they still need to do and that they can't really throw more people at it to complete it faster. You don't understand at all.
 
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whateversa

Posts: 80   +97
Do I need qualifications to understand that they are f-ing around? Just so you know I am a team leader in the company I work for developers and I know perfectly well what a failed management does to a project. They have mangled the project so much that they created an impossible situation where they can't deliver on anything and the scope keeps growing. I pity those devs that need to listen to Chris's demands.

FYI feature creep and scope are still increasing (beyond the game "features" they keep adding/changing). It's impossible not to these days.

For example they'll have to move to new Vulkan versions (didn't they announce gen12?) which will allow devs to change the rendering pipeline to include things like ray-tracing/DLSS/FSR and will also allow them to make it much more multithreaded (god knows they need all of the perf improvements they can get).

As time goes by they will need to change old legacy code. Things that are new today can be obsolete in 5 years and new GPU features will continue to appear all the time (soon we'll get direct storage support in windows). Changing legacy code for important systems is and will always be a time consuming and bug ridden process.

TL;DR they had to make the game a scam to support their development which is extremely costly and mismanaged. They know they can't deliver so they focus on taking your money first and the rest second.

I don't think you understand just how much work they still need to do and that they can't really throw more people at it to complete it faster. You don't understand at all.
If you read your message again, you will see you just proved yourself wrong.

Did you think switching to a new Vulkan version delays server meshing or other backend components? You are mixing up front end and backend systems. Is it because you are not qualified or because you are making assumptions?

How much changes do you think Eve Online went through over the years - they had to keep updating stuff - just like Star Citizen would have to even AFTER it was finished. Now you blame things to keep the game up to date as being the cause of the delay.

You ASSUME there is a management failure. You are not working in the office every day - you are not in all meetings to hear all the perspectives about why some decisions are made. Management may be far from perfect, just like every other company.

You do not understand the definition of a scam.

They have already proven much of what is there already out does existing games.

If you do not have what it takes to break through barriers of what has been done before, you should not involve yourself and stop complaining.
 

psycros

Posts: 4,153   +5,795
If you read your message again, you will see you just proved yourself wrong.

Did you think switching to a new Vulkan version delays server meshing or other backend components? You are mixing up front end and backend systems. Is it because you are not qualified or because you are making assumptions?

How much changes do you think Eve Online went through over the years - they had to keep updating stuff - just like Star Citizen would have to even AFTER it was finished. Now you blame things to keep the game up to date as being the cause of the delay.

You ASSUME there is a management failure. You are not working in the office every day - you are not in all meetings to hear all the perspectives about why some decisions are made. Management may be far from perfect, just like every other company.

You do not understand the definition of a scam.

They have already proven much of what is there already out does existing games.

If you do not have what it takes to break through barriers of what has been done before, you should not involve yourself and stop complaining.

EVE Online is also dying because of developer greed and stupidity, so not the best comparison.
 

moon982

Posts: 100   +26
How are you qualified to assess this game as a scam? Based on what? Oh my, is this the first time a software project is way over due and over budget? Goodness gracious. How many projects have ever existed that are this ambitious? And how many of them were surrounded by tantrum kiddies creating a toxic environment for their teams?


You don’t understand it is over 10 years and still no release date be it in year or two years from now.

Only two things come to mind.

One it started of as a scam than later on they started to work on it to keep the money going.

Or like you and some others here said the goal so big it would take years.


Look at Grand Theft Auto V or Fallout 76 map size and some one wanted map size million times bigger or some one wanted to make game like GTA with every city in the US it going to take millions of developers and probably 20 or 30 years to make.

If that is want they wanted than they should have been honest upfront and make game where you pay to unlock new areas. Example that say wanted game like GTA game for every city in the US that would be huge undertaking. It would probably take 30 years to make or more. You would have to pay to unlock new areas every year for that business model to work.

But that not want they said up front.


 

blackdreamhunk

Posts: 110   +6
I am pretty sure Chris Roberts can't deliver on his promises. When stuff hits the fan. I will make sure to tell the judge if I asked to court. That on MMORPG and TechSpot I was indirectly told to shut up.

many people witnessed it

just like I am told not a victim of star citizen.I must keep star citizen.
 
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blackdreamhunk

Posts: 110   +6
Who tf spends $7,000 on an unfinished video game? Get real priorities.
Thank you for immortalizing my comment. You did what I need you to do.

I hope I get to see mods in court once star citizen fails

calling it now star citizen is a failed project. A lot of nonowners star citizens indirectly told me shut up.

I am not allowed to speak my mind and be angry.

I am forced to stay with a scam and take abuse.
 
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Squid Surprise

Posts: 5,335   +4,980
Thank you for immortalizing my comment. You did what I need you to do.

I hope I get to see mods in court once star citizen fails

calling it now star citizen is a failed project. A lot of nonowners star citizens indirectly told me shut up.

I am not allowed to speak my mind and be angry.

I am forced to stay with a scam and take abuse.
Pretty sure a thread on Techspot won't be considered evidence for anything... but good luck to you :)

This is NOT a failed project by the way... Chris Roberts is making a fortune from it... and there is no need to finish the game - that will only mean he actually has to support it and won't be able to accept any more funding...

Much better to simply accept money and add little tidbits every so often...
 
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blackdreamhunk

Posts: 110   +6
Pretty sure a thread on a Techspot won't be considered evidence for anything... but good luck to you :)

This is NOT a failed project by the way... Chris Roberts is making a fortune from it... and there is no need to finish the game - that will only mean he actually has to support it and won't be able to accept any more funding...

Much better to simply accept money and add little tidbits every so often...
are you suggesting TechSpot and MMORPG did nothing wrong? I would like a yes or no answer now.
Star citizen failing is just a matter of time.

you should make your comment perfectly clear.

Techspot took a side and MMORPG also took side by silencing me
 
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Theinsanegamer

Posts: 3,364   +5,591
I dont want to say *I told you so* to everyone who disagreed with me over the years on various tech sites that Scam Citizen was a total waste of time, I want to say that after going *PFFFFT* and rolling on the floor laughing in front of them.

This is the company you have sank $410 MILLION into. You dont even get to see what they are doing anymore, how DARE you distract them? Just open your wallets like good paypigs and eat from the trough.
I been a support since about 2015 and played the alpha and enjoy the potential I see. People gotta keep in mind a lot of the tech need to make the game CIG is making themselves, where other games already have the resources. Sure it's taking a long time but it doesn't mean you have to slander CIG and what there trying to do
LOL imagine meatshielding for star citizen in 2022.

Hey bud? GTA V cost $250 million to make. Rockstar made their own engine, their own tools, assets, ece, with a team nearly 1000 strong. took them 6 years.

Star citizen is now over $410 million dollars, 8 years behind schedule, with only a tech demo to show off. Cloud Imperium Games managed to burn through more then GTA V cost in its entireity with a team that, for the first 4 years, never went over 50 people, and today is just over 300.

After recieving huge amounts of investor cash, Chris Roberts bought for himself a multi million dollar mansion, several supercars, and later a yacht.

This is not slander, these are FACTS.

Chris has let his ambition get the better of him while enriching himself off of his own promises. He's not dumb, he knows that PC consoomers will dump hundreds of millions on his project and meatshield it for 10 years.
 

Puiu

Posts: 5,550   +4,518
TechSpot Elite
If you read your message again, you will see you just proved yourself wrong.

Did you think switching to a new Vulkan version delays server meshing or other backend components? You are mixing up front end and backend systems. Is it because you are not qualified or because you are making assumptions?

How much changes do you think Eve Online went through over the years - they had to keep updating stuff - just like Star Citizen would have to even AFTER it was finished. Now you blame things to keep the game up to date as being the cause of the delay.

You ASSUME there is a management failure. You are not working in the office every day - you are not in all meetings to hear all the perspectives about why some decisions are made. Management may be far from perfect, just like every other company.

You do not understand the definition of a scam.

They have already proven much of what is there already out does existing games.

If you do not have what it takes to break through barriers of what has been done before, you should not involve yourself and stop complaining.
Eve Online is above SC by miles and I'm talking as someone who will go to Eve Fanfest this May. This game shows just how desperate you are getting to find more wild excuses.

Eve was made in about 4 years (from idea to version 1.0) with a small budget and a small team. Crazy right? It's how SC started and how it should have launched sometime between 2015-2018. Make a plan and execute the plan, that's how good management works.

Eve actually launched and over the years it saw many changes to its engine, servers and gameplay. Eve is not known for its stellar management, but comparing it to SC 's management is insulting.

"If you do not have what it takes to break through barriers of what has been done before, you should not involve yourself and stop complaining." - don't know what barriers you are talking about. More ingame interactions? Higher quality models? These are all stupid excuses for the delays.

I don't understand why you think I'm assuming things. There are literally case studies out there on how the SC management is a failure (Games Deconstructed has one on youtube I think).

"It's just too complex, please forgive us by filling our wallets with hundreds of millions" - Chris Roberts 2022.

I also thank you for mentioning Eve. It's a good example to destroy your excuses. For example, when you look at the SC community and compare it to Eve's community you'll notice something strange:
1. when Eve devs do something scummy the players get angry (like releasing expensive things on the real money market when the games has bugs that need to be fixed)
2. when SC devs do that, SC players defend such decisions by saying that the money helps the development of the game and that it's normal

TL;DR SC fanboys can't see that they are scammed and actually embrace the absurdity of the current situation all because they dream of a grand game being released sometime in the future. They bought into the "dream" and are now stuck, most being in denial.
 
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Squid Surprise

Posts: 5,335   +4,980
that is a lie took a side when they made the choice to silence me
OK, maybe you need a tinfoil hat... I suspect they "silenced" you because you rambled on and on in irrelevant lengthy posts written in poor English...

People have been posting on this site (and numerous others) for years stating that SC was a scam... anyone who lost money in the last few years has only themselves to blame.
 

blackdreamhunk

Posts: 110   +6
OK, maybe you need a tinfoil hat... I suspect they "silenced" you because you rambled on and on in irrelevant lengthy posts written in poor English...

People have been posting on this site (and numerous others) for years stating that SC was a scam... anyone who lost money in the last few years has only themselves to blame.
are now calling me a liar? when say " tinfoil ht" or do you some implying I am crazy?
I was personally attacked on Reddit as well when stated the 890 jump is an exploration ship.

Now I have been personally attacked on TechSpot, MMORPG, and Reddit.

I was told to stay in a scam

I was told I am not a victim on MMORPG

I gave proof and sources to back my points up and TechSpot refuse them.
 

Theinsanegamer

Posts: 3,364   +5,591
are now calling me a liar? when say " tinfoil ht" or do you some implying I am crazy?
I was personally attacked on Reddit as well when stated the 890 jump is an exploration ship.
LOL imagine using reddit for anything other then pron in 2022.
Now I have been personally attacked on TechSpot, MMORPG, and Reddit.
Calling you out for broken posts, poor english, and completely missing the point is not "attacking".
I was told to stay in a scam
Nobody told you to continue contributing thousands to scam citizen. You made that decision yourself.
I was told I am not a victim on MMORPG
You are not a victim. You're a sucker.
I gave proof and sources to back my points up and TechSpot refuse them.
Imagine that, techspot ignored th rambling posts made by someone who cant accept he made amistake. Techspot is not you rpersonal army dude. Maybe you should read your own sources and make your own decisions, instead of expecting others to do it for you?
 

blackdreamhunk

Posts: 110   +6
I was a lot of lies and promises with experiences with star citizens. TechSpot and mmorpg refused to hear me.
refused to look at my sources
 
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blackdreamhunk

Posts: 110   +6
LOL imagine using reddit for anything other then pron in 2022.

Calling you out for broken posts, poor english, and completely missing the point is not "attacking".

Nobody told you to continue contributing thousands to scam citizen. You made that decision yourself.

You are not a victim. You're a sucker.

Imagine that, techspot ignored th rambling posts made by someone who cant accept he made amistake. Techspot is not you rpersonal army dude. Maybe you should read your own sources and make your own decisions, instead of expecting others to do it for you?


So you're calling me a liar? well guess what star citizen is looking like it is going to fail. Chris Roberts can't deliver on all his promises. You admit you refused to listen to me thank you for your confessions
 

Theinsanegamer

Posts: 3,364   +5,591
I was a lot of lies
You got that right.
TechSpot and mmorpg refused to hear me.
Oh we hear you, we just want you to shut up.
So you're calling me a liar? well guess what star citizen is looking like it is going to fail. Chris Roberts can't deliver on all his promises. You admit you refused to listen to me thank you for your confessions
See, this is the "not listening" thing you're doing again. How about you go through my post history and find ONE TIME that I have been positive towards star citizen? Go ahead, I'll wait, because you wont find one.

Did you ever stop to think what you will do when you finally catch your own tail?
 
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