Valve CEO Gabe Newell wants to discuss relocating game developers to New Zealand

Godel

Posts: 246   +144
If he's moving his company to NZ he should also consider things like cost of living, housing and taxation rates.

While not a problem to a billionaire, that might be of more concern to his minions.
 

dihartnell

Posts: 13   +9
NZ doesn't understate its deaths since we go to the trouble of determine cause of death in all cases. In fact because of our lockdowns and the covid tracing NZ would normally see 500+ deaths per year from the Flu which we have had a fraction of this year. A perverse outcome of Covid has been a reduction of the usual death rate, particularly among the elderly or sick.

WHO reported on the outbreak in China on the 5th January and by 30th January had declared the outbreak to be a "public health emergency of international concern." At that point the writing was on the wall. Could the Who have made that declaration earlier, probably, but they worked off information provided to them, so I don't buy into the "They lied" nonsense. China wasn't entirely forthcoming I don't think but then Im not sure that their state officials are entirely forthcoming with their national govt either.

Yes lots of countries are bigger, with bigger border and they have bigger resources to apply to the problem too. It was still a big effort for our country to achieve and pay for.

I completely disagree with your assertion that testing and contract tracing is ineffective once you have community spread. That's exactly what is needed to get control of it along with accepting limits on movement for the good of all.


 
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dihartnell

Posts: 13   +9
We definitely had some luck early on - really defined clusters - making up more than half the cases . We had no super spreader going everywhere.
We probably should of closed down a week earlier - but was full tourist season - lots of export dollars pouring in . The Govt allowed St Patrick's day to go ahead - amazing only 1 small cluster in a smaller town from it . Saying that NZers did a great job during lockdown - of following rules - So annoyed some of us later when Govt actions at border were worst than general population - like allowing some mingling, early releases in to community with no testing ( that's why we had no positives for quite a few weeks - as none of arrivals or border workers were being tested - border workers only got tested much later after more incompetency ) - When friends and family had kept their bubbles during lockdown
All true.
 
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Endymio

Posts: 1,029   +875
WHO reported on the outbreak in China on the 5th January
Jan 14: WHO repeats China's claim that Covid-19 does not spread human-to-human, despite data from Taiwan demonstrating otherwise.
Jan 21: WHO repeats assertion that Covid-19 poses no world health threat.
Feb 3: WHO criticizes US for instituting travel bans against China, calling them "unnecessary" as China has the outbreak "well contained".
Mar 3: WHO, citing data from China, says Covid spreads "much less efficiently than the flu", and that all but 1% of carriers have symptoms. This statement is immediately criticized as false by public health officials in South Korea, Japan, and elsewhere.
Mar 11: WHO finally declares Covid a pandemic, and admits it is highly infectious.

I completely disagree with your assertion that testing and contract tracing is ineffective once you have community spread. That's exactly what is needed to get control of it
I don't believe you realize what, in epidemiological terms, the phrase "community spread" means. It is the point at which there are significant numbers of cases which cannot be traced to an origin. It is a basic staple of epidemiology that, once community spread has occurred, resources should be focused on community mitigation, as containment is no longer possible.

New Zealand never experienced community spread. The United States -- along with nations such as Italy -- not only experienced community spread, but did so before China and the WHO was even admitting there was a problem.
 

dihartnell

Posts: 13   +9
Jan 14: WHO repeats China's claim that Covid-19 does not spread human-to-human, despite data from Taiwan demonstrating otherwise.
Jan 21: WHO repeats assertion that Covid-19 poses no world health threat.
Feb 3: WHO criticizes US for instituting travel bans against China, calling them "unnecessary" as China has the outbreak "well contained".
Mar 3: WHO, citing data from China, says Covid spreads "much less efficiently than the flu", and that all but 1% of carriers have symptoms. This statement is immediately criticized as false by public health officials in South Korea, Japan, and elsewhere.
Mar 11: WHO finally declares Covid a pandemic, and admits it is highly infectious.

I don't believe you realize what, in epidemiological terms, the phrase "community spread" means. It is the point at which there are significant numbers of cases which cannot be traced to an origin. It is a basic staple of epidemiology that, once community spread has occurred, resources should be focused on community mitigation, as containment is no longer possible.

New Zealand never experienced community spread. The United States -- along with nations such as Italy -- not only experienced community spread, but did so before China and the WHO was even admitting there was a problem.
Yeah we did. Any case that you don't know where it came from is community spread, hence why test and trace, so you know. That's the value of testing and tracing. To find out where it came from and how widespread it is. I guess you could just try the wait for people to drop dead and assume they died from it or complications from it. I hope not.

I'm thankful that our govt really worked hard to control this thing here.

I wish you well.
 
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kiwigraeme

Posts: 160   +116
I think to be fair - I don't think many of the general populations in January and a lot of February were not too concerned . I mean we had SARS , Avian flu was it MERs? as well - They all turned out fine -except from memory places like HongKong and the Middle East - The NZ govt stocked up on Tamiflu - some folks said he was a waste of money. ie just another inflection out of China due to close proximity to wildlife/domestic animals and humans
 
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dihartnell

Posts: 13   +9
I
I think to be fair - I don't think many of the general populations in January and a lot of February were not too concerned . I mean we had SARS , Avian flu was it MERs? as well - They all turned out fine -except from memory places like HongKong and the Middle East - The NZ govt stocked up on Tamiflu - some folks said he was a waste of money. ie just another inflection out of China due to close proximity to wildlife/domestic animals and humans
I didnt take it seriously at first either but as I was overseas late Jan I realised it was turning into a big deal. Airport hubs like Changi in Singapore had rolled out temperature checkers, and were double checking people who had been in known hotspots and there were quite a few by then.
 
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dihartnell

Posts: 13   +9
Don't think so. they stopped work on it some time back even before the pandemic. Seems unlikely. I thought the main issues were that the Source engine development was going really slowly and wasnt good enough for a next gen game so they cancelled development.
 
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And each and every one of them arrives by plane at an airport, where they can be easily held and screened. Or-- in this case-- halted entirely. As an island nation, New Zealand has no land borders to seal.
Yeah nah. Hawaii: 14183 cases, population 1.416 million, no land border to seal. Deaths: 186.
NZ: 1887 cases, population 4.886 million. Deaths: 25.
The "NZ land borders" argument is a commonly repeated fallacy.
 
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Puiu

Posts: 4,139   +2,752
TechSpot Elite
And nations like Belgium, Spain, Italy took those same measures and have death rates as high or higher than the US. Also, a nation like South Korea can (and did) institute mandatory GPS cell-phone tracking and credit-card tracking of all citizens to enable contact-tracing of infections, as well as many other actions which are clearly unconstitutional in the United States.
Spain and Italy? Those 2 countries are known for how terrible of a response they had, how can you even consider comparing them to South Korea? You should read more about what actually happened in Italy.

As for South Korea tracking where COVID confirmed cases went to, it's actually something supported by its citizens and it works. You can go online and find anonymous information about where COVID patients visited, at what hours, etc. FYI the US can also track you by using your credit card transactions and it does.
 
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Endymio

Posts: 1,029   +875
Yeah nah. Hawaii: 14183 cases, population 1.416 million, no land border to seal. Deaths: 186....The "NZ land borders" argument is a commonly repeated fallacy.
To quantify the effect of Hawaii's lack of a land border, you eliminate as many other variables as possible, I.e. you compare it to the rest of the United States. Hawaii's death rate is 1/5 the level of the US a whole. That's the result of a lack of land borders.

In New Zealand's case, I've already pointed out that the lack of land borders is a factor, but not the primary factor in its low counts. New Zealand was helped far more by having no direct flights from Wuhan (the US had 50!), and no cases before Covid was identified as highly infectious. (The US had thousands).

Yeah we did. Any case that you don't know where it came from is community spread, hence why test and trace.
No. All cases have an unknown origin until tracked. Community spread is defined as a significant number of cases for which the origin cannot be tracked. This is why basic epidemiology states that once community spread has occurred, resources should be devoted to mitigation, not containment.
As for South Korea tracking where COVID confirmed cases went to, it's actually something supported by its citizens...
It may be popular, but its still government-mandated, and in the US, unconstitutional. It's also not nearly as 'anonymous' as you might think:

South Korea's Tracking Of COVID-19 Patients Raises Privacy Concerns

FYI the US can also track you by using your credit card transactions and it does.
Not without a warrant in a criminal investigation.
 

zavrix

Posts: 48   +30
But other nations which did exactly the same were slammed hard. New Zealand benefitted not only from being an isolated island nation a thousand miles from anywhere, but even more importantly in that its case zero came very late, after China had stopped denying that Covid spread through human-to-human contact. Many other nations had already achieved community spread before New Zealand even had this first case.
Yes Feb 28th was our first case, so we did have a little bit of time compared to some countries
 
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zavrix

Posts: 48   +30
Jan 14: WHO repeats China's claim that Covid-19 does not spread human-to-human, despite data from Taiwan demonstrating otherwise.
Jan 21: WHO repeats assertion that Covid-19 poses no world health threat.
Feb 3: WHO criticizes US for instituting travel bans against China, calling them "unnecessary" as China has the outbreak "well contained".
Mar 3: WHO, citing data from China, says Covid spreads "much less efficiently than the flu", and that all but 1% of carriers have symptoms. This statement is immediately criticized as false by public health officials in South Korea, Japan, and elsewhere.
Mar 11: WHO finally declares Covid a pandemic, and admits it is highly infectious.

I don't believe you realize what, in epidemiological terms, the phrase "community spread" means. It is the point at which there are significant numbers of cases which cannot be traced to an origin. It is a basic staple of epidemiology that, once community spread has occurred, resources should be focused on community mitigation, as containment is no longer possible.

New Zealand never experienced community spread. The United States -- along with nations such as Italy -- not only experienced community spread, but did so before China and the WHO was even admitting there was a problem.
Yep the WHO and China made matters so much worse for everyone and we are still paying the price!
 

Bp968

Posts: 195   +142
Taiwan is worth considering too really
Is it really? It's very close to being the flashpoint for WW3. China *is* going to attempt to reclaim Taiwan and I don't believe the EU or US can allow that currently considering how much of the silicon industry is located there.

It's also a much higher population density with much higher real-estate costs.

As for covid-19, NZ is only a model if you ignore all the citizens and permanent residents who are trapped outside the country while their businesses and lives are destroyed because they can't return. Or the fact that there is a clear class structure about who gets in and who doesn't (got a private jet? Come on in! A lower income permanent resident? Tough, im sure you'll get home next year some time. Chin up!).
 

Endymio

Posts: 1,029   +875
Is it really? It's very close to being the flashpoint for WW3. China *is* going to attempt to reclaim Taiwan and I don't believe the EU or US can allow that
Much depends on who wins the US election. The Obama Administration (with Joe Biden as point man for Chinese foreign policy) blocked the sale of 66 F-16s to Taiwan, despite approval for the package by Congress and the US DoD. The Trump Administration restored that deal, and has recently notified Congress that it intends to provide Taiwan with even more advanced weapons systems:

US To Sell Taiwan New Long-Range Weapons to Counter Chinese Aggression
 

Bp968

Posts: 195   +142
Much depends on who wins the US election. The Obama Administration (with Joe Biden as point man for Chinese foreign policy) blocked the sale of 66 F-16s to Taiwan, despite approval for the package by Congress and the US DoD. The Trump Administration restored that deal, and has recently notified Congress that it intends to provide Taiwan with even more advanced weapons systems:

US To Sell Taiwan New Long-Range Weapons to Counter Chinese Aggression
I'm not sure thats true. It might have been during the Obama era but the entire western world is seeing China in a new light. Covid didn't help that but Hong Kong has been the primary push for those on the left. China is rapidly using up its global goodwill and I believe that doing so is part of their plan. They don't feel they *need* the approval of the world anymore and so are starting to implement policies and plans they have intended to implement all along.

It would be very unfortunate if he went back on the deal and it would likely embolden China to go ahead and take Taiwan if it wasn't already planned.
 

koblongata

Posts: 337   +142
I'm not sure thats true. It might have been during the Obama era but the entire western world is seeing China in a new light. Covid didn't help that but Hong Kong has been the primary push for those on the left. China is rapidly using up its global goodwill and I believe that doing so is part of their plan. They don't feel they *need* the approval of the world anymore and so are starting to implement policies and plans they have intended to implement all along.

It would be very unfortunate if he went back on the deal and it would likely embolden China to go ahead and take Taiwan if it wasn't already planned.
I know, CCP is terrifying, everyone, Chinese included, knows that.
 
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koblongata

Posts: 337   +142
Is it really? It's very close to being the flashpoint for WW3. China *is* going to attempt to reclaim Taiwan and I don't believe the EU or US can allow that currently considering how much of the silicon industry is located there.

It's also a much higher population density with much higher real-estate costs.

As for covid-19, NZ is only a model if you ignore all the citizens and permanent residents who are trapped outside the country while their businesses and lives are destroyed because they can't return. Or the fact that there is a clear class structure about who gets in and who doesn't (got a private jet? Come on in! A lower income permanent resident? Tough, im sure you'll get home next year some time. Chin up!).
No, China has the most expensive real estate in the world, and the funny part is the only landlord in China is CCP.
 

koblongata

Posts: 337   +142
Is it really? It's very close to being the flashpoint for WW3. China *is* going to attempt to reclaim Taiwan and I don't believe the EU or US can allow that currently considering how much of the silicon industry is located there.

It's also a much higher population density with much higher real-estate costs.

As for covid-19, NZ is only a model if you ignore all the citizens and permanent residents who are trapped outside the country while their businesses and lives are destroyed because they can't return. Or the fact that there is a clear class structure about who gets in and who doesn't (got a private jet? Come on in! A lower income permanent resident? Tough, im sure you'll get home next year some time. Chin up!).
There are increasing number of incidents where foreigners in China got their home broken in and searched for no reason.

Really, if Gabe goes to China, he is very likely to be arrested or even made disappeared because of his work on Half-Life series.
 

Bp968

Posts: 195   +142
No, China has the most expensive real estate in the world, and the funny part is the only landlord in China is CCP.
I was thinking about it a little more and I think the main destabilizing force is Xi. It all depends on 1) how complete his power is and 2) how important it is to him that his particular goals are met in his lifetime and 3) if he believes (like some do) that china has a small window in time to "claim its place" as the #1 world power or lose the opportunity forever.

I don't think things would go as far as full open conflict between nations but I also don't know his personal goals or how complete his power is. He may be willing to take a big risk if he sees a big opportunity. The thing going in everyones favor is that accomplishing your goals via war tends to be less productive and more expensive now than it is to use less direct methods.

Honestly I fear social media far more than outright conflict (and by social media I mean all of it. The corporate controlled ones, and the CCP controlled ones)
 

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