Why a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing

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I think everyone's forgetting it's not the kid's fault, it's the parents, for allowing their child to destroy their computer system.

I don't think that passwords and external backing up is beyond the average user either. Geez it's all over the Net

I have to say I go along with parts of most of the posts here (a few words here and there - too many to quote)

But ptitterington is the closest best match (against the majority of members who have posted here) Life doesn't stop when your computer does! And that's final.

As for the original post, and how it was handled, obviously very poorly, with an inevitable re-install. Sounds like a lot of hours lost learning, yourself.
 
Even from the perspective of a "kid" I can definitely see the justification behind the "kids these days" attitude. A lot of people my age simply don't care about the consequences of their actions, especially when said consequences will be suffered by someone else. They just want to mess around and have a bit of fun. On the other hand, there are lots of people my age who do care about consequences and who take responsibility. It's common practice to be annoyed at the immaturity of youth, and probably with good reason. Although, I wouldn't really know about that from the perspective of an adult.

On the whole I think that the kid should be made to pay for it, but it's not the end of the world when your computer is broken. Although, for some of us (like me!) it'd sure seem like it ;)
 
Even from the perspective of a "kid" I can definitely see the justification behind the "kids these days" attitude. A lot of people my age simply don't care about the consequences of their actions, especially when said consequences will be suffered by someone else. They just want to mess around and have a bit of fun. On the other hand, there are lots of people my age who do care about consequences and who take responsibility. It's common practice to be annoyed at the immaturity of youth, and probably with good reason. Although, I wouldn't really know about that from the perspective of an adult.

On the whole I think that the kid should be made to pay for it, but it's not the end of the world when your computer is broken. Although, for some of us (like me!) it'd sure seem like it ;)

The annoying part about it is that it's a prejudice. "Teenagers don't care what they screw up and that's that." It's an outdated way of thinking. The thread starter is making countless arrogant assumptions about this kid. "Oh he did blah blah because every wannabe tech has to do that." Maybe this kid was sorry about it, or maybe, if his uncle cared so much about his computer, he shouldn't have been letting "some stupid teenager" on the computer in the first place.

The point is, just because you're old(er), it doesn't mean your point is more valid or intelligent. Often the opposite, as is the case with his "Firefox causes grief" nonsense.
 
Who is everyone attacking here? Adweston or ptitterington? ptitterington is maybe the only one on this board that has been here longer than me and isn't staff or a mod, and he has valid points on the way things were in the past on the boards. I don't see anything in his posts that deserves the outrage that I saw in the responses. Was it his 'toy' comment? sure some of us have important data on our computers, some of us may even use a home computer as a work pc. But if you are only storing important data in 1 location where a software or hardware issue can cause you to lose it all you are the one at fault.

Taking personal shots at members here is against the board rules anyway, I see none of the mods have given any infractions out, but if this arguing continues the thread will get locked and I'll be handing out infractions. Nobody wants that, so lets get back on topic or just not post in this thread anymore.
 
My advice for this chap is to charge his nephew for the damage and hope he learns his lesson.

May be a little late, but i would consider making him fix it with me. Considering he seemingly (as far as i can tell) made some attempt to fix it, it may help him if he decides to go crazy again, give him a better understanding as well as knowledge (incomplete knowledge is dangerous, with proper education however, people will hopefully be smart enough not to do "stupid stuff"), in theory preventing him from doing it again, called learning from your mistakes, something everyone should do and know. Point proven by computernerd and corbette_1989:
If you hadn't started blindly screwing around with computers at some point, you would have no idea how to fix them today.
It can be a safe bet to say that most people learn about computers by breaking them first


Even from the perspective of a "kid" I can definitely see the justification behind the "kids these days" attitude.
Though I have to say i agree to an extent. Kids really have leaned more toward the
"Teenagers don't care what they screw up and that's that."
attitude, which is were expressions like those came along. Stereotyping however, is a part definitely do NOT agree with, it puts a bad reputation on teenagers who are, not more intelligent, but perhaps more wise or mature.
The point is, just because you're old(er), it doesn't mean your point is more valid or intelligent.
and yes, some older people are too belligerent against teenagers, maybe they have forgotten when they were a child. I haven't and I can see the reasoning behind what the kid did, not specificly as in downloading viruses and whatnot but, rather "toy" with something until it breaks, and making a sad attempt to fix it. Yes, children are regretful, but teenagers perhaps are too prideful and rather not show it.


I have seen grown adults format their enitre harddrives because they could not connect to their work places servers. So its not just a age issue here.
No, its an knowledge issue, and wisdom. Anyone who had formated their hdd over something stupid would learn, as long as their was some significant penalty, something i can't say i hope for but could be beneficial in the long run, would be FAR more careful next time, again learning from your mistakes and learning its not wise to rush hastily with the hope of success.


I don't think that passwords and external backing up is beyond the average user either. Geez it's all over the Net
maybe its the net thats out of reach :).


The gene pool seems to be growing very stagnant these days...
Maybe its just there are many more people today and so you see more of those people...but seriously, you have a point, the amount of "stagnant gened people" seems ridiculously large.


b) kids should only have LUA sccounts.
Not kids specificly, thats stereotyping and ageist, but people who are not yet intelligent and responsible for privileges in question.


I can't help but wonder if the kid did it on purpose, its can be terribly difficult to accidentally do such damage to a pc, especially since he had SOME computer knowledge.


exhausting post :dead:
 
I think I come from a different background perhaps? Maybe I cater to a different audience. Regardless, I have no problem speaking my mind. Likewise, same with ptitterington and that in itself should be respected.

So, with that said, to address some of the issues here:

First, I've been doing this for 24 years. I've run a very successful, ever growing computer business for the past 11. It's fair to say I'm no spring chicken at this stuff.

That experience covers a vast array of aspects, from tutoring, web design, server design/build (ranging in price from 1600 to 12,000) and installation, wide range/high power wireless, laptop repairs (PC and Mac), Shuttle, PC design, build, sales, service, virus prevention (and at one time, virus distribution.. many MANY years ago), HTPC, gaming systems, networks, you name it pretty much. Binary, programming in basic and assembly.. I've even run online communities, edited for major search engines, did speaking engagements at events, etc.

I think what you've seen of my posts in various threads here makes it rather obvious I know what I'm doing.

And yes, I started somewhere too.. but not screwing up other people's computers.. I actually started on Commodore Pet, Vic 20, 64 and Apple II.

Ok. Enough of the background nonsense... to the point.

Firefox: I can't tell you how many times over the last five years I've heard people running to it's defense. Quite clearly, the people that did weren't website designers. I've had the (dis)pleasure of trying to make my pages Firefox compatible after Opera and IE were neatly sewn up. It's rendering engine is crap. That's all there is to it.

For years the argument stood about "plugins" and "ActiveX" combined with the age old "Security". For the longest time, they had a point. True, much of the web was rendered improperly, they missed out on a wide variety of interactive and multimedia content, etc. However, IE6 had as many holes as swiss cheese.

For me, one thing that's important is that I be able to log onto my office network remotely. Firefox is simply unable to do so. It's not possible without "IE Tab". With half my clients corporate clients, They require things to do their job that Firefox will not allow them to do.

Finally, the "security" myth. It is precisely that.. A myth. For one, year over year Firefox has as many documented exploits as IE. Some of the most severe ones remained unpatched forever. In most cases, Microsoft got the fixes out faster. Secondly, ActiveX infections are old news. Todays infections affect both browsers equally via java, etc. Third party software is required to adequately protect your computer.

So yeah, the Firefox/IE debate is utter stupidity and completely 2005 with the introduction of IE7 and now IE8. So we can let that go.

Next. Backups. Clearly there aren't many people here that are business people and thus understand that time is money. Many of my clients don't have the time to screw around and they certainly don't have the time or where-with-all to reinstall everything. Backups, while being the case with residential clients at times, isn't the same ball of wax as professional clients that often invest a lot of money in backup technologies.

These people depend on their computers, as do I. Every minute they are down costs them money, and in many cases lots of it. We attended one job site where a so-called "tech"... probably more aptly named "hack" installed a cheap piece of junk so-called "server" in an insurance office. When it crashed, we were called in. I won't tell you how much it cost that company... but suffice it to say it was more than some youngsters make annually. I CAN however tell you that they DID have backups of their data.

I went to another site that absolutely depended on their Simply Accounting. The "tech" had configured a tape backup. Their database corrupted. After 4 HOURS enumerating the tape, we found that the only file that hadn't been backed up was the one we needed. It cost them almost $1000, not including down time, to have the problem resolved by a third party.

Is a computer a toy? That depends on your point of view. To many of my clients, it's the core of their business. To others (particularly our senior clientelle) it's their only lifeline to the outside world. It's not an amateurs' world, nor does an amateur have any business being anywhere near this equipment. The ramifications are serious.

Reinstalling apps, copying over data, setting a computer back to the way the client had it. For many clients, having to reset everything to what they were used to is actually traumatic for them. I've seen meltdowns because their shortcuts weren't the way they remembered them. They get used to doing things a particular way, and justifiably they expect that to remain the case after the repair.

Many times we've ghosted machines to new builds so that they'd have that "comfort" knowing that everything was exactly the way it was. We're very good at that.

Reinstalling creates a lot of havoc. I've seen incompetent "techs" do the following:

Format and erase all their pictures, music, documents
Lose all their emails and email settings
Lose all their favorites.
Delete programs that were downloaded
Break links to file shares on servers and in workgroups
Break printers
Kill remote desktops
Trust me, I can go on and on. On occasion I've even taken pictures. Seriously. An amateur can do a LOT of damage. And it can be very, VERY costly.

Calling a computer a toy could be ignorance. It could be a point of view. It could be a result of that individuals background. It doesn't matter. They shouldn't be bashed for that view. However, they SHOULD be corrected/reminded that for many people it's anything but a toy.
 
I've done it all too (I'm not going to list everything)
Suffice to say I could repair, well I think everything! (But I'll say 99% just to be safe :D)
By the way I never try display arrogance (except possibly the above line ;) ) and I believe all faults are slightly different to the next.

But lets be really clear here. I've seen thousands of physically faulty HardDrives (even new ones) And more thousands of corrupted data (let alone system files)
In all cases (really lots of users here) the business or corporate or private or even government agencies, continued on, ie they survived.

I stand by my comment about ptitterington's earlier posts. The computer is mostly just a tool (that usually inevitably breaks ;) ) and usually a toy (in most homes - not all)

The issue of the "child" has been overwhelmed by the issue of technical knowledge
Obviously he needs his own computer, and possibly some guidance (or even a backup image on external media - or better yet: Ubuntu Live CD !)

As for Servers, I must comment here, and say that many Servers are low end Linux boxes (you know as low as a couple of hundred Mhz - depending upon application) Actually these boxes don't really fail as much (ie all this extra stuff does) I won't keep going on about Servers, but I've also set up the $100,000+ ones too.

The IE \ Firefox debate; presently is not ideal, with IE hit hard in recent weeks (By the way I'm normally IE all the way) But I've come to grips with the fact that Firefox (without any extras) is quite good (don't quote me on that ;) )

Back to topic.
That kid's doing what most techs did when they were young - meddle
Hey just to test some software has caused my computer to go down (of which I fixed myself :) )
It's still all about backups and account settings (slightly moved from passwords!)
 
@adweston: I won't argue about your experience. Still, regardless of what computers you actually started your computer career with, you can't claim that you've NEVER messed something up. It was a mistake. And he's a kid. Don't be so harsh. Of course a computer isn't a toy, and it's a gross generalization to think that the kid thought of the computer as such. Again, if the computer was so absolutely mission-critical to the uncle as you say, it's inconceivable that he would allow the kid to even touch it.

The point is, "screwing around" is one of the fundamental principles of becoming tech-savvy in the first place. This kid did what any tech-savvy kid would do. Which is not to break the machine, but to mess around with it. That Apple II that you started out with was the product of people who did precisely such messing around, by the way.

As for the Firefox/IE thing, your thing about having to fix pages for Firefox after IE was "neatly sewn up" shows everything that's wrong with IE, not Firefox. You had all your pages specialized for IE's bastardized, standards-destroying excuse for an engine. It's also been PROVEN to be slower than multiple alternatives, including Firefox. It's almost comical that you would mention Firefox's rendering engine. When you're trying to present IE as a better browser than Firefox, the rendering engine is one category you really want to stay away from. There are no hard feelings or anything else involved here: Firefox is -- by the numbers -- a better browser.
 
Self-confidence/Self-awareness is a different animal from arrogance ;)

When you say it's mostly a toy in a home.. I can't even agree with that. Many people run businesses or do work from home. That makes it a tool. And what's on that tool is critically important for their productivity.

There's no defense for bad workmanship or destroying someone's computer. Even if it is a "toy" it's immaterial. That "toy" has become ingrained, in most cases, into the fabric of that person's existence. It's their personal property, their personal investment, and it needs to be respected.

Yes, on occasion we've had clients that simply don't care and insist it simply be formatted. Surprisingly to some, I'm sure, they're in a very distinct minority. In fact, it's far more common for people to spend several times what the machine is worth, rather than replace it, simply because it's a "comfort thing".

To say businesses survived.. Well, yeah. Of course they did... at a cost. See, being in business is about making money. And I don't know any business owner that likes throwing money away due to stupidity.

Personally, I've spent thousands.. Well.. Tens of thousands.. To make sure my technology stays running. I'm absolutely dependent on it and failures are disasterous... Even something as simple as our email failing or an internet outtage.

For example, I'm on site a lot. My server syncs the calendars and contact information. My Palm logs into the server every few minutes to update itself. If that fails (and alas, I've had my Treo die on me) the outcome is disasterous.

For us, and most of our clients, a computer is not a toy... And those that can't respect that need to stay far away AFAIC. :)

As for the Firefox/IE thing, your thing about having to fix pages for Firefox after IE was "neatly sewn up" shows everything that's wrong with IE, not Firefox. You had all your pages specialized for IE's bastardized, standards-destroying excuse for an engine. It's also been PROVEN to be slower than multiple alternatives, including Firefox. It's almost comical that you would mention Firefox's rendering engine. When you're trying to present IE as a better browser than Firefox, the rendering engine is one category you really want to stay away from. There are no hard feelings or anything else involved here: Firefox is -- by the numbers -- a better browser.

Please note that I said Opera and IE, not just IE. ;) Opera is "W3 Compliant".


edit: Gah, I've gotta get used to that "combining posts" thing... I've never been anywhere that's so insistent on it before. I'll adapt, I'm sure. :)
 
Please note that I said Opera and IE, not just IE. ;) Opera is "W3 Compliant".
Well, even so, if you consider yourself a decent web designer, shouldn't you be able to adapt your website to a new mainstream web browser without too much trouble? I don't feel that Firefox asks that much of web developers, to be honest.
 
I did actually. I was able to get it eventually.. But GEEZ!!! I was actually quite infuriated at the end. I'd get it right in Firecrap, then it broke the layout in Opera and IE.. However, after trial and error I got it right...
 
I think maybe the problem adweston is that you are mixing worlds here. You are mixing buisness computers with home computers (I know some people work from home and have buisness computers at home then). This is primarily an enthusiast board though, and not really a board that people come to with problems/complaints they have with the computers they come across in their career as a tech. Most of us here aren't computer technicians/engineers/whatever, most of us are people that just like computers and a few of us know a great deal about them despite not having a bunch of certifications to our names.
 
I am bringing two worlds together, corporate and consumer. I know that. The thinking quite often remains the same. I've dealt with both for a long time, long enough to know that most often the concerns are the same.

For an enthusiast that just tinkers on it, yeah, it's a game.. Whipe it, start over, fine. But I've also noticed that even a lot of enthusiasts would rather fix it than wipe it. Your malware forum stands perfect testimony to that.
 
This kinda of opinion, if your customer would rather wipe it, wipe it for them. If they are trying to fix it, try to fx it...

Does anybody know were Zenosincks went? I havn't seen him for a while.
 
Zenosincks last visit November 18 2008
I'm sure he'll be back ;)
We all come back eventually :suspiciou
 
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