AMD Ryzen: Prices revealed, no Windows 7 support, smaller than Skylake

C Lane

TS Member
The problem is, MARKETSHARE means people in the MARKET for a new CPU - this DOES NOT mean the total number of PC users - it means the amount of people buying NEW machines (the % of people who upgrade the CPU on an existing device and don't upgrade their OS is pretty much negligible). Since almost all machines come with - or WILL come with - Windows 10, the actual marketplace for Ryzen is almost exclusively Windows 10.
mar·ket share
ˈmärkət ˌSHe(ə)r/
noun
  1. the portion of a market controlled by a particular company or product.
Wherein that statement do you see the term new? Let alone, only ...

And would you mind sharing that negligible % stat? Since I've been building my own and upgrading for 20yrs, I'd be curious to see that. Not that I disagree, most aren't capable or don't want to be troubled with it.

Again, nice rant - but you again ignore the actual point... I'm not arguing that Windows 10 is superior to Windows 7... I'm not arguing that Windows 10 may or may not expose your private information to MS and other companies....

The POINT is that, regardless of these practices, Windows 10 will be the primary OS on PCs that will have a Ryzen CPU inside them!!!! This is why AMD is ignoring Windows 7... not sure what's so hard to see here....
No kidding... That's a given. As to your second statement, "This is why AMD is ignoring Windows 7", seriously? Wow... I do however appreciate your depth of conviction...


The problem here is that we're not really arguing.... the reason I didn't provide any "evidence" for my opinion is because it contains the same numbers you've already posted... I AGREE that Windows 7 has a 50% install base.... I simply disagree (and obviously so do Intel and AMD - so I'm in pretty good company!) that install base = marketshare!
You disagree because of a direction your being easily maneuvered, hmmm...

If the entire basis of you point is merely a statistical truism, I'm very disappointed. The discussion was about the particular wisdom for a given choice regarding market-share, not what was an obvious conclusion for a given situation vs time scenario. Or at least it should have been, lol. However, I don't wish to seem unappreciative of your time, so thank you for all your wise and meaningful observations.

Two things a decidedly true from this debate:
1. Forced obsolescence... I'm not even going to bother at this point. (that was a stretch, huh?)
2. I'm gonna have to side wit[SIZE=4]h Raiderman here, You keep drinking that Kool-aid, lol...

Thanks for your time.
[/SIZE]
 

Squid Surprise

TS Evangelist
OK... you can spin this however you want... but it simply comes down to this.... There are VERY FEW PEOPLE who will be putting Windows 7 on a new PC with Ryzen (those Lenovo laptops aside - none of them will have Ryzen, so that's just irrelevant - you'll notice if you read the article how shocking it is to see a new PC sold with anything other than Windows 10!), which is why AMD has decided not to bother supporting it.

What I should have added in my previous post (I thought it was obvious, but my bad), was "market share" has to apply to "people who will be buying Ryzen" for it to be relevant to this conversation. We don't care about WINDOWS market share, but future Ryzen market share!! And that is a DIFFERENT market than the total install base - current Windows market share is NOT RELEVANT!! Only future market share - which, if only by "crooked means" will clearly be Windows 10 dominant down the line after Windows 7 stops being supported by MS.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand... you've decided to obfuscate the issue by giving all this information about the bad practices of MS, the planned obsolescence of other OSes, and privacy issues.... Pretty much everything you have said is true - it just HAS NO BEARING ON THE ISSUE!!!

Again, I'm not saying that Windows 10 is awesome... I'm not saying that Ryzen is awesome.... I'm not even saying that AMD is making a good or bad decision here.... It's just plainly obvious as to the reason AMD (and Intel) are making their new CPUs Windows 10 exclusives... I'm sure if someone interviewed an exec from Intel or AMD, they will give you the same answer...
 

captaincranky

TechSpot Addict
What I should have added in my previous post (I thought it was obvious, but my bad), was "market share" has to apply to "people who will be buying Ryzen" for it to be relevant to this conversation. We don't care about WINDOWS market share, but future Ryzen market share!! And that is a DIFFERENT market than the total install base - current Windows market share is NOT RELEVANT!! Only future market share - which, if only by "crooked means" will clearly be Windows 10 dominant down the line after Windows 7 stops being supported by MS.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand... you've decided to obfuscate the issue by giving all this information about the bad practices of MS, the planned obsolescence of other OSes, and privacy issues.... Pretty much everything you have said is true - it just HAS NO BEARING ON THE ISSUE!!!

Again, I'm not saying that Windows 10 is awesome... I'm not saying that Ryzen is awesome.... I'm not even saying that AMD is making a good or bad decision here.... It's just plainly obvious as to the reason AMD (and Intel) are making their new CPUs Windows 10 exclusives... I'm sure if someone interviewed an exec from Intel or AMD, they will give you the same answer...
If that last paragraph of you paragraph is intended to read as it does, you're not saying anything about the topic either. It appears you've just rung in to scold someone.

So, if news is news, and there's nothing to be said to contradict it, or editorialize about it, why even bother having a forum to discuss it?

The most newsworthy part of the discussion is that which you're claiming doesn't matter. New processors not supporting older operating systems is big news, if only for the fact it's never really happened before.

Why, it's like the CEOs of Windows, Intel, and AMD went into a back room,. lit up some big, fat, Cuban cigars, and decided that consumers were going to move to Windows 10, whether they liked it or not. It's collusion, fraud, price fixing, and whatever other draconian business practices to be named later.

M$ apparently has the clout, to force it's will on the entire rest of the industry, and that is big news.




And relax, I know the whole head in the sand thing is only a metaphor.
 
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BSim500

TS Evangelist
There are VERY FEW PEOPLE who will be putting Windows 7 on a new PC with Ryzen (those Lenovo laptops aside - none of them will have Ryzen, so that's just irrelevant - you'll notice if you read the article how shocking it is to see a new PC sold with anything other than Windows 10!), which is why AMD has decided not to bother supporting it.
What I've found shocking is the number of people who know I'm "good with computers" who've bought a new Skylake laptop and who ask me to wipe W10 and put W7 back on... On the one hand, yes usage does not = new sales. On the other hand "registered W10 PC's" is also typically higher than W10 users too given the last time Microsoft counted desktop / laptop users, they included both mobile phones and unused serial keys by "downgraders"...

What I continue to find fascinating on this (and other) tech sites, are people's assumptions that their own opinions are so obviously superior to the decisions of multi-billion dollar corporations...
People's assumptions about their own needs are indeed superior when faced with conflicting interest. Microsoft, a multi-billion dollar corporation, made decisions like "Closed ActiveX is a wonderful substitute to kill off Open Javascript, security concerns are overblown because no-one will attempt to hack it", and "let's 'donate' $86m to SCO to keep the SCO vs Linux FUD troll lawsuit alive", and "people will absolutely love the Web Development Hell of us rejecting open web standards during the early years and needing to waste extra time coding "IF BROWSER = IE5-8 THEN RENDER X DIFFERENTLY via CSS HACKS" on every single web-page and hopefully let us pull an Embrace, Extend, Extinguish on HTML/CSS..." And people's assumptions about how utterly hostile to consumer/business many of MS's "strongarm" decisions are and how the above cr*p benefited the average consumer by absolute zero are correct...

As for Intel/AMD, their "bottom line" is simply to sell more hardware, and Intel have already made the "multi-billion dollar corporate decision" to release Win 7 drivers for Kaby Lake CPU's either because they believe it will increase sales to target more people (obviously), or simply in response to a lot of people asking for them, consumer and business alike, so +80% of the "new sale" market still have that choice for at least 1-2 more generations. And because of that, AMD are likely to quietly follow suit once marketing figures out when you only have the remaining 20% and you want that to grow, the last thing you want is an "anti-feature" ("Zen locks you in, Kaby Lake doesn't") being associated with it that reduces potential pool of only your sales but not your competitors...

The ultimate bottom line is "Wait And See". If I believed half the doom & gloom 'predictions' by W10 fanboys, even Skylake wouldn't work at all. Instead it (and Kaby Lake) take all of 10mins to get up and running on Win 7 with at least half a dozen "one-click" utilities available from Asus & MSI to Intel themselves, with or without Microsoft's "permission". It's entirely possible that Ryzen will work fine on 7 and that similar AMD drivers / utilities will be released a few weeks down the line, at which point all this arguing will be the same hot air as "You do realise that Skylake doesn't work on Windows 7" was last year.
 

ddferrari

TS Maniac
Considering that AMD has always been the budget option to Intel/Nvidia, I don't see how a $316 starting point appeals to the masses. If this chip competes with a $1069 i7-6900k that's great news- for about .0001% of us... how many people are rocking a +$1K chip? How about they release a cpu that competes with the 2500k/3570k for $125, because THAT would be newsworthy.
 

ddferrari

TS Maniac
Well yeah, they aren't out yet :p

But in all seriousness, we'll know in the first week once some real world tests are conducted. I have faith they'll beat out the $300-400 Intels by a decent margin, but that's because my inner AMD fanboy really wants to see them succeed again.

Take this with a grain of salt, but if it's true we won't be disappointed - http://wccftech.com/amd-ashes-ryzen-4-0-ghz-benchmarks/[/QUOTE
Well those people are just farked, because Intel newest don't support Windows 7 either.
Yeah and the newest Intel is almost identical to the Intel of four years ago, so why bother?
 
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ddferrari

TS Maniac
I don't see it that way at all for Ryzen/Zen. It mathes or beats Intel on SMT and is respectably close for single core If you knwo you are playing a single core or single thread game disable smt and that will enable you to squeeze higher clocks out of the cpu. But l in no way will Ryzen single thread sputter or be a bottleneck for your gpu in any game. Next generation in 2 years is zen plus on 7 nm. That will be when AMD matches Intel fully in single core and blows it away in SMT. Being competitive Ryzen is a far better bang for the buck. Will use less power and save you more money for a quality graphics card like Vega which bows 1080 GTX and Titan X out of the water. That will be available ithe end of May I believe. I plan on buying the Ryzen 1800X at $492..
"Next generation in 2 years is zen plus on 7 nm."

Wow, another AMD fanboy who can predict the future!
 

ddferrari

TS Maniac
1 million studies? Good God. Who funded these 1 million studies? Do you have links?
Lol according to whom?? The benchmarks only AMD has? That it has the same amount of cores and threads doesn't make it an i7 you know. And the so called news are only unveils from AMD, you know, the guys who over-hype everything... bulldozer anyone?


Welcome to 2017 my friend, where 2 cores is the norm and software is actually pushing for more. If I have to disable the cores and whatnot on "some" things...buddy that's not how it goes.


Besides pricing and AMD internal testing information (We all know where that leads by now... right?) there is nothing to back what you are saying. At this point you are not being anything else other than a fanboy for AMD and hoping that all your wet dreams come true, and don't get me wrong, that would be awesome but then again... history has taught us to not fall on AMD's self-hype.


Yeah, duck you AMD for not supporting an OS that their developers ended mainstream supporting it 2 years ago! Screw you AMD!!!
"Welcome to 2017 my friend, where 2 cores is the norm..."

Which planet do you live on?
 

ddferrari

TS Maniac
Well, You are uniformed, that is why you'd choose Intel today.


Understand, that the Intel Core i7 is a 4 core, 8 thread CPU & the i5 is a 4 core, 4 thread CPU (no hyperthreading).

While AMD's new Ryzen chips come in 4c/8th, 6c/12th, or 8c/16th configurations. And if you are trying to compare the i7, don't use the $317/$490 prices, look to the 4c/8th chips... which will start about $169 bucks..!

The high end AMD CPU will compete with Intel's 6900k, which is a $1,100 CPU. And for only $490, the R7 should be a massive bargain for HEDT.
Uh huh, and what percentage of computer users actually need 6900K performance for their daily surfing/gaming needs?
1 million studies? Good God. Who funded these 1 million studies? Do you have links?
Do you really want 1 million links mr. bigfatclown?
 

bluto 2050

TS Addict
While the new AMD CPU product may be what they say or most of it or not which is plausible that it is on paper I been disappointed by AMD too many times since AMD K6- K6 II to K10 6 cores , they won't get my money this Intel Haswell core i5 and the two core i7 CPU here are up to 1080p ultra gaming and digital content production doing what I need swiftly and none were disappointing at the spend at all and more stable than the AMD rubbish I had .
 
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bluto 2050

TS Addict
It's not so much that Windows 7 "doesn't work". It's that Intel removed support for EHCI with 6th/7th Gen processors. What this means is that when you try to install Windows 7 on a brand spanking new PC, most likely your USB ports won't work because they use the newer communication standard known as XHCI, which Windows 7 doesn't have drivers for out of the box. You can work around it by either using a PS/2 keyboard/mouse and a disc-based version of Windows 7, or you can slipstream the drivers into your install if you really want to go those lengths.
slipstreaming drivers into an install is not difficult
 
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Raiderman

TS Booster
I applaud companies that defy the Ole mighty Microshaft, and do what any corporation should do, and give them the middle finger. People do not like to be forced into things they don't want to be, and the communist actions of MS lately has people not trusting them, and rightfully so.
 
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captaincranky

TechSpot Addict
Do you really have 1 million links?
Forget the links, and let's put out some facts about AMD's, actual precarious position, instead of listening to nonsense fanbois fantasies.

First off, Intel is likely well on the way to having paid for it's 14nm fabs.

AMD has had rock bottom prices because they were using obsolete nodes, on equipment which probably had to be refinanced.:eek:

Now, AMD is at 14nm, the same as Intel, and they're going to have to pay the investment off, before they will once again be truly profitable.

Point being, AMD can campaign with low prices all they want. The fact remains, if Intel decides to take them on in a price war of their making, Intel will win, and AMD will go bust.

They've already moved out of their Silicon Valley headquarters, where quite frankly, it looked as if they could no longer afford to keep the grass cut.

I don't wish them well, or ill. I'm just trying to say what I've seen. If they fight on price alone, their stock will likely tank, because of no appreciable ROI.
 
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C Lane

TS Member
If that last paragraph of you paragraph is intended to read as it does, you're not saying anything about the topic either. It appears you've just rung in to scold someone.

So, if news is news, and there's nothing to be said to contradict it, or editorialize about it, why even bother having a forum to discuss it?

The most newsworthy part of the discussion is that which you're claiming doesn't matter. New processors not supporting older operating systems is big news, if only for the fact it's never really happened before.

Why, it's like the CEOs of Windows, Intel, and AMD went into a back room,. lit up some big, fat, Cuban cigars, and decided that consumers were going to move to Windows 10, whether they liked it or not. It's collusion, fraud, price fixing, and whatever other draconian business practices to be named later.

M$ apparently has the clout, to force it's will on the entire rest of the industry, and that is big news.




And relax, I know the whole head in the sand thing is only a metaphor.

And here I thought you were wanting to date...
 
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C Lane

TS Member
I applaud companies that defy the Ole mighty Microshaft, and do what any corporation should do, and give them the middle finger. People do not like to be forced into things they don't want to be, and the communist actions of MS lately has people not trusting them, and rightfully so.
Agreed... Forgive me for doin a little sharin... but time for a stir.

Almost 18 years ago to the day, February 26, 1999 Intel released the Pentium III (P3) 500MHz Katmai SECC2 cartridge. Believing I just had to have one, I pryed from every corner of my wallet to eek out the 5 bills necessary to foster that belief. Shortly thereafter and swearing I'd never do something so impetuous again, as to pay their ever demanded premium for a flagship Intel processor. Five bills, even then, was pretty healthy. It wasn't long after I made the change to AMD and swore I'd never look back.

When you've been in this arena as long as I have you get to look at companies like Intel and AMD over the long haul. You actually get to see just exactly how they deal with the wild eyed public and end users, sucking in every ounce of embellished and aggrandized advertising of the great and powerful new CPU now available. And make no mistake, it had a great and powerful price tag to go right along with it!

Now, don't get me wrong, new technology products like cpu advancements deserved a bit of a premium. But nobody exercised the "bit" quite as well as Intel, like clockwork with every new CPU launch. And pay people did, over and over.

now, if you recall earlier I mentioned that I opted for AMD's early on, and I rode the slow train even enduing an occasional train wreck or two. And don't think for a moment that those were painful! But I hung in there, refusing to part with those hard earned dollars just because uncle Intel was bustin a grape over a couple new transistors and another click or two... So lets get back to their perception of people, their customers. Whom by the way, they gladly bled at every opportunity they could tout those transistors and clicks.

Now here's the good part. Every time AMD got a little bit close on the "tail waggin scale" and started to byte (pun intended) into that market-share of theirs, those premium cpu prices y'all been payin came crashin towards the floor, so one of them shiny new Intel's with a few more transistors and a couple more clicks could be had for not much more than we was payin for those there AMD's! Yep, that shiny new cpu that y'all just paid that exorbitant premium for was now crawlin on the floor with our AMD's, reasonably and fairly priced for a change. As time went on and those 3,4 or 5 occasions when AMD would pull that 'ole I-chain, them prices would come crashin down again!

Now, I never did take no action on those competitively forced "sale" prices Intel was offerin, but it sure as hell told me just exactly what 'ole uncle Intel thought of those people buyin his shiny new cpu's with a couple more transistors and another click or two... Now... I'm not gonna spell it out no further, cuz if I have too... uncle Intel was right!

Now, here we are today with Mickeysoft and WinSpy10, and despite the fact that they've hacked, packed and stacked it in and on peoples PC's everywhichway they could get away with, and then some... It still don't have the market share they want, and with people wising up, it's impactin that growth factor too. I can't wait to see where that goes...


And now we come to point of my little bitty rant with the great big players and I am just appalled that the new definition of loyality... It's a one way street!

With AMD turning their collective noses up at a just under a 50% global install base of Windows 7 users, and a fair share of those choosing upgrade over new pc's, (That's right no one truly wants Microsoft's spyware flagship), Seems very likely to this long time devotee that AMD may no longer be the CPU manufacturer of choice. And I do know that I am not the only one out there that's not happy with this.
Now I'd offer up the simplicity of what it would take for the support of 7, but I don't wanna embarrass no one. So lets call a spade a spade...
Yes, that's right... those of us who've chosen to ride that long and sometimes painful train of mediocrity, not only waiting for... but banking on, one day would come and the wait would pay off. But then... only to be **** on by that long time mediocrity giant as they choose to slide on Billies skinin linin. And I hope you choke on it... So let's spread the word, if that's how we as a group are viewed by AMD, seems only fair to respond in kind. Don't buy new, upgrade... You'll be happier in the end. (Unless uncle Intel was right!)

Add yes, I know they aren't the only ones... So, if you can't add anything but the painfully obvious... Do us both a favor, lol...
 
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Squid Surprise

TS Evangelist
Nice rant... since you seem to love using the crappier (yet cheaper) option - why don't you just buy a new PC, use Windows 10 (and Google how to make it just as "good" as your beloved, if inferior, Windows 7) and stick a cheaper Ryzen CPU into it?

While we don't have any official benchmarks, it DOES look like Ryzen will be competitive for the first time.... and again, 50% of the market being on Windows 7 is a VERY misleading statistic. That's 50% of the ALREADY OWNED market... Since these are NEW CPU's and will almost certainly be going on NEW PCs, the market will be HEAVILY slanted towards Windows 10.
 

captaincranky

TechSpot Addict
Agreed... Forgive me for doin a little sharin... but time for a stir.
So let's spread the word, if that's how we as a group are viewed by AMD, seems only fair to respond in kind. Don't buy new, upgrade... You'll be happier in the end. (Unless uncle Intel was right!).............[ ]................Add yes, I know they aren't the only ones... So, if you can't add anything but the painfully obvious... Do us both a favor, lol...
Well, I can't understand why you elected to give us such a long winded and pedantic CPU history lecture, and at the expense of quoting another member's post so you could talk down to him, along with he rest of us.

As for you forking over way too much money for a top end CPU, relax, we all have pasts of which we're sometimes not proud.:D But isn't that an ego driven "blunder"? A mistake born out of insecurity, and a need to perceive yourself as the "top dawg of the desktop", in your immediate social group?

As far as "trust" goes between M$ and it's customers, it was actually those customers who struck the first blow. After all, M$ really did need to install the activation paradigm in Windows XP. Otherwise, people would have just continued copying their next door neighbors edition. Humorously, without the activation protocol, Windows as an operating system, might have become a pyramid scheme in reverse gone horribly awry.

So, save for the "tragically hip" literary styling of your post, nothing you've said is anywhere close to being new business. Although doubtless you felt you were on some "bold new frontier of journalism", while you penned it.

While I applaud you your considerable effort, along with your much self ballyhooed arrival here at Techspot, nothing you've said amounts to more than, a repetitive monologue of the painfully obvious.

So, while I'm at it and FWIW, "welcome to Techspot". :p
 
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captaincranky

TechSpot Addict
Nice rant... since you seem to love using the crappier (yet cheaper) option - why don't you just buy a new PC, use Windows 10 (and Google how to make it just as "good" as your beloved, if inferior, Windows 7) and stick a cheaper Ryzen CPU into it?

While we don't have any official benchmarks, it DOES look like Ryzen will be competitive for the first time.... and again, 50% of the market being on Windows 7 is a VERY misleading statistic. That's 50% of the ALREADY OWNED market... Since these are NEW CPU's and will almost certainly be going on NEW PCs, the market will be HEAVILY slanted towards Windows 10.
` Have you gotten that job for M$ yet? You know, the one you've been so tediously bucking for since your arrival. :D

Have you been teaching your kindergarten class to, "love, honor, and obey, the mighty M$ corporation"? God, that sounds uncomfortably like one of those outdated wedding vows, doesn't it?

Hey, and while you're being outraged by me sassing you, why not put that energy to good use and go buy an extra copy of Windows 10. You know, the one I won't be buying. After all, somebody's got to take up my slack! :p :cool:.
 
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