Automakers lose emissions credits for start-stop technology under new EPA rules

It's always entertaining to read articles about cars written by people who have no earthly idea how they work. First, the most insane notion that is hinted at in many of these posts is "if we could just reduce idle emissions, we'll save lives and the planet". Combustion is a simple process, it is the oxidation of fuel in a way that gives off energy. In a gasoline engine without controls, you have hydrocarbons, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide, water vapor H2O. Idle is the state of the engine that produces fewer "bad" byproducts that any other operational state. Stable fuel control, low combustion chamber temperatures, etc. The modern catalytic converter does away with HC and s bit of the others. Cars rarely spend 20% of their operation at idle,and in order to reduce emissions that much, it would have to be more like 50%. Translation, the pollution, fuel savings, et. al. are greatly exaggerated compared to what comes out during normal driving.

Next, the 70's oil embargo had NOTHING to do with the tech. As someone almost got right, it required electronic fuel injection, modern batteries, and here's the payoff a specially designed alternator and front accessory drive system with improved belts to both start car and charge the electical system. (Note that the system does NOT use the starter motor). NONE of these things were available as a package to engineers for a mass production vehicle until recently.

Last,the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) rating was a result of the oil embargo, but it didn't take Obama long to realize that he could pervert the system designed to conserve fuel to push the sky is falling global warming debate. By setting the average north of 50 MPG, a number that NO gasoline cars can reach as a fleet average, he created a federal mandate for EV's without even mentioning them. By making cars that get infinite fuel economy (a total lie, the power comes from somewhere), they can get credits to keep making gasoline engines the the customers want. The start/stop credit was yet another perversion of the CAFE laws.

The upshot of all of the is the tech does provide some reduction in fuel and emissions, but nowhere near justifies the expense and customer dissatisfaction the comes with it. And CAFE was not the way to do it, since that's not why the law was written.
 
I just hope for those that have this STUPID "technology" the auto makers send out a software update to DISABLE IT!
My car does need SW update to disable it.
There are simply too many restriction for it to actually work.
- engine warm enough
- A/C off
- foot on brake
- no hand brake
- shift in gear

Remove one of the list and engine is still running.

PS: And those behind me "LOVE" those bright brake light while I held foot on brake.
 
You haven't established or even hinted at what impact start/stop actually has on health.
I did, in two very, very lengthy and thorough explanatory posts. (I even supplied actual data, although taken from an AI summary.) However, I admit, that even those just might have went flying over your head. That I can accept.

Obviously you cannot reason someone out of something he was not reasoned into in the first place. For anyone else, those two explanatory posts and the data supplied will be more to enough.
 
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Start-Stop is terrible.
Personally, I prefer either a wasteful Supercharged V8 (My Hellcat) or a super efficient EV (My Cadillac Lyriq/ Vistiq).

EV gives you a solid 550 - 650 HP with a recharge costing just $10 for 300 miles. The only downside is you must charge at home (public chargers are mostly terrible).

Starting and stopping an engine is just lame.
 
Used to be a discussion in Norway as well - but it died completely as we've transitioned to EV's. Very little local emission in traffic now. Gone is the smog we used to have during winters, like a blanket over the city. You can have your opinions about Ev's, but they do wonders for the local air quality.
 
Google says: "Emission controls on cars have significantly increased life expectancy by reducing air pollution-related mortality. Studies show that reduced vehicle emissions prevented thousands of deaths annually in the U.S. (dropping deaths by ~8,000 between 2008-2017) and have potential to save hundreds of thousands of life-years globally by 2050.

  • Future Projections: Stringent controls (e.g., Euro 7) are estimated to prevent 38,000 premature deaths and 625,000 years of life lost by 2050 in Europe.
  • Global Impact: Accelerated vehicle emission standards could prevent 210,000 premature deaths globally in 2030, with 90,000 of those in China and India alone. "

    So, there's that.

"statistics" in a vacuum are useless. 'google says'. You didn't include what your prompt was. Google's AI is not great, and unless you do a proper interrogation of it, you've no idea how accurate or relevant its output is. Projections are just that - data that doesn't exist, being used to present a fictional future.

What was the actual prompt you presented? If it was just 'lives saved by emission controls', then more than likely the majority of whatever trends were embedded, most of it is probably from the introduction of catalytic converters way, way long ago, so no relevance to whether these modern dial-twiddling 'improvements' may or may not offer.

The logical path of your arguments ends at a 100% ban on all vehicular transport, because no matter where the pollution is emanating from, it's poisoning us, therefore it must be eliminated.

This isn't far-fetched either. It's the entire ethos of the 'Just Stop Oil' crowd of loonies. They'd like to see us all enjoying the high standard of living that early hominids enjoyed - like dying before we reach thirty years old, from lack of heat, cooling, shelter, medical care, food, water, you know, all those superfluous luxuries.
 
I did, in two very, very lengthy and thorough explanatory posts. (I even supplied actual data, although taken from an AI summary.) However, I admit, that even those just might have went flying over your head. That I can accept.

Obviously you cannot reason someone out of something he was not reasoned into in the first place. For anyone else, those two explanatory posts and the data supplied will be more to enough.

You most certainly did not present any data. I'm supposed to take on faith what some rando writes, rather than links to actual published research and data?

Presenting an AI summary as being definitive evidence of anything is laughable.

Your tone has been relentlessly condescending and dismissive towards anyone who doesn't hold your opinions - heck, you pre-emptively cast aspersions before you finished the first sentence of your original post.

Dunning-Kruger effect writ large.
 
I did, in two very, very lengthy and thorough explanatory posts. (I even supplied actual data, although taken from an AI summary.) However, I admit, that even those just might have went flying over your head. That I can accept.

Obviously you cannot reason someone out of something he was not reasoned into in the first place. For anyone else, those two explanatory posts and the data supplied will be more to enough.
Your lengthy posts did not include any specifics about local and external emissions impacts. Starters must be built differently to accomodate a potential 50-fold increase in how often they are engaged. Batteries must be built differently to accomodate a potential 50-fold increase in high-current draw. Engines must be built differently to keep moving parts lubricated while the engine is not running and gravity pulls the oil down to the oil pan. All of these things have cost and emissions impacts, yet you refer to none of it. As you say, obviously, you cannot reason someone out of what he was not reasoned into in the first place. You know the answer you want, and are not open to exploring the data in its entirety.
 
Over the last month I noticed that my auto start-stop was not working. I first thought hey this is GREAT something broke that improved my vehicle. Then I noticed that my vehicle was starting slower. Then the auto door lock feature stopped working....I needed a new Battery. One trip to Costco and $200 (after tax) all is fine...even that stupid start-stop I have to turn off EVERY SINGLE TIME I GET IN.

If it just wouldn't cut off at STOP signs it would be somewhat bearable.
 
Over the last month I noticed that my auto start-stop was not working. I first thought hey this is GREAT something broke that improved my vehicle. Then I noticed that my vehicle was starting slower. Then the auto door lock feature stopped working....I needed a new Battery. One trip to Costco and $200 (after tax) all is fine...even that stupid start-stop I have to turn off EVERY SINGLE TIME I GET IN.

If it just wouldn't cut off at STOP signs it would be somewhat bearable.
A great argument for the rolling stop ;)
 
Sure I am old enough but smog was never a problem where I lived. I am glad CA took on smog but they over did it when they took on the reservoirs and fire hydrants
🙏May you find a place on Earth where you are not affected by pollution of any kind.
 
As usual, not only the unwashed masses, but even those who think of themselves as well-versed in technological matters, are actually ignorant of the facts or at least in denial about them . . .

Like reducing emissions that are causining cancer. Or emissions that can be and are directly inhaled by us. Like when you're stopped and waiting in a line at a red light. And where for ex. EGR can't reduce those directly harmful emissions, because it can't be used when the engine is merely idling. Start/stop kicks in there, and saves you from a lot of emissions that your car would otherwise directly pull in from the one standing in front and next to you. And which your car would put out for the car standing behind you to pull in. And so on.

Questions:
(1) Emissions control "can't be used at idle" - why not? Is it mechanically or electronically impossible, or perhaps just another cost-saving measure?
(2) Emissions your car would pull in from the one directly in front of you - apparently cabin ventilation and open windows don't pull in emissions. I would like to see the research proving that. Plus, absent certain military NBC-equipped vehicles, I've never known any land vehicle to be airtight.
(3) Has no one ever read the 90s - early 2000s papers presented to Congress which proved that unleaded and biological-waste and even corn fuels are cancer and neurological causing? Probably not, because they were largely disregarded and buried because, as one Senator said on the record "The amount of cancers and brain damage caused is not large or noticeable enough to warrant a change; it would cost too much." IIRC that same Senator was found to be profitting - personally - from the corn fuel mandate. (Names wouldn't be appropriate, but it is a matter of public record, if the accessible databases haven't been scrubbed.)
 
For one, this is not the flex or logical argument you think it is. If anything, it's a perfect argument _against_ the decision to abolish the Start/Stop requirement - or for any change in policy for that matter - without publishing relevant data that actually justifies it. Which the administration didn't do in this case either - neither did anyone who argued for this being a good thing. Including you (see below!).

Also, you obviuously failed to comprehend that what I did was to provided you with the correct/explanatory framework in which all the emission stuff makes sense, and in which it has to be interpreted in order to be able to assess its benefits and drawbacks. Because that's what most (if not all) commenters obviously failed to realize to begin with, and without which you can only come to an invalid/unsound conclusion whether it's a good or a bad thing, even if it would just based on personal preference.

Which doesn't really work or isn't really either, because you know, you're not only poisioning yourself (or you're poisioning not primarily yourself) with your "personal preferences" about emission controls, but are also getting actively poisoned by the personal preferences of the guy waiting in front of you in the line, and you're doing the exact same thing to the guy waiting behind you at the red light, even if his personal preference would differ.

The actual data... you're free to google it. AI Overviews says it's 4-10% reductions in fuel consumption, which also means at least that much in overall emissions. In reality it's actually a lot more like (more like >20%) just because, as already explained, harmful emission are a lot higher when the engine is just idling, and when it's efficiency drops sharply.

So, should I now make the same argument you attempted (but failed) to make, that you claim that to be the "biggest downside", but provide no actual data to back up that claim? It would be just too easy, wouldn't it be?

Instead I make the argument that everything I wrote still stands for the particular interpretation of "engine wear" that you mentioned, and which I think should have been obvious to anyone was included in my original argument.

No sane person, if offered the choice, would sacrifice his health or extra 5-10-50 years of healthy life over not having to rebuild or replace their cars or engines at, say, 150k miles instead of 200k miles.. or whatever you think the shortening effect of Start/Stop is on the life of engines in general. Which, again, is not a given in the absence of actual data, which you provide none of.

Google says: "Emission controls on cars have significantly increased life expectancy by reducing air pollution-related mortality. Studies show that reduced vehicle emissions prevented thousands of deaths annually in the U.S. (dropping deaths by ~8,000 between 2008-2017) and have potential to save hundreds of thousands of life-years globally by 2050.

  • Future Projections: Stringent controls (e.g., Euro 7) are estimated to prevent 38,000 premature deaths and 625,000 years of life lost by 2050 in Europe.
  • Global Impact: Accelerated vehicle emission standards could prevent 210,000 premature deaths globally in 2030, with 90,000 of those in China and India alone. "

    So, there's that.
AI says, and Google says. You forgot Wikipedia says and Reddit says. All four of which have been shown, time and time again, to be untrustworthy. Any reference where the pages can be and are edited to support desired "facts", or where the forum editors control what is and isn't accepted aren't sources a reputable research program would accept. Oh, yes, there's Snopes, from back in the day when Start-Stop was first implemented, where the owners later admitted, publicly, that they were paid to "edit" reports and conclusions, and that they often "invented" facts.
 
Your lengthy posts did not include any specifics about local and external emissions impacts. Starters must be built differently to accomodate a potential 50-fold increase in how often they are engaged. Batteries must be built differently to accomodate a potential 50-fold increase in high-current draw. Engines must be built differently to keep moving parts lubricated while the engine is not running and gravity pulls the oil down to the oil pan. All of these things have cost and emissions impacts, yet you refer to none of it.
Oh, the irony of you not realizing to proving my point with every and each of your sentence anew, for ex. by having included the word "built" in them.....
 
Oh, the irony of you not realizing to proving my point with every and each of your sentence anew, for ex. by having included the word "built" in them.....

Yes. And those changes all have external emissions impacts.
 
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