EPA says Chrysler is cheating on emissions tests, too

William Gayde

Posts: 373   +5
Staff member

Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) has been slapped with a violation of the Clean Air Act from the Environmental Protection Agency. The EPA statement claims FCA installed certain software systems on some diesel vehicles that increased emissions above the legal amount claimed by the company. 

This software allowed excess emissions of toxic Nitrogen Oxides. It was allegedly included on light-duty, 3-liter engine models of the Jeep Grand Cherokee and the Dodge Ram 1500 from model years 2014 through 2016.

The announcement comes some time after the Volkswagen scandal which saw that automaker hit with a $4.3 billion fine for cheating on emissions tests as well. That was the largest fine ever given to an automaker in the US and the EPA alleges nearly 500,000 VW cars were in violation. The VW cars used a defeat device that artificially lowered engine power and thus emissions, but only during EPA testing.

The evidence against FCA is solid with at least eight pieces of undisclosed pollution controlling software on their vehicles. The violation is due to the fact that FCA did not tell the EPA that this software was installed, something all automakers are mandated to do before releasing a new model.

The EPA did not go as far with Chrysler as with VW since it does not appear that the software in question was designed as a "defeat device". The scale is also much smaller than VW since it only affects about 104,000 vehicles. Though this is still a large number of cars and is very disconcerting to the American consumer that another major auto brand has been caught being less than straightforward on emissions tests. The EPA says they were able to catch FCA due to increased testing standards developed in response to VW's fiasco.

Fiat Chrysler is denying all wrongdoing at the moment and appears to be trying to stall as long as possible in the hopes that the Trump administration will be more lenient. His pro-business and anti-environment views could work to FCA's advantage. FCA stock was down nearly 20% following the announcement but has since rebounded to a 9% loss at the time of publishing.

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lripplinger

Posts: 284   +99
So just to play Devil's Advocate, how do the busy bodies at the EPA know what is considered to much "pollution from the tail pipe" anyway? These non-elected bureaucrats act like they are gods and know everything, and the rest of us are just dumb cattle to be herded around. All of this nonsense has made diesel engines prohibitively expensive in the U.S. I can't help but wonder who is scratching whose back to make diesels in the U.S. very expensive and like they are cancer.
 
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Greg S

Posts: 1,607   +442
So just to play Devil's Advocate, how do the busy bodies at the EPA know what is considered to much "pollution from the tail pipe" anyway? These non-elected bureaucrats act like they are gods and know everything, and the rest of us are just dumb cattle to be herded around. All of this nonsense has made diesel engines prohibitively expensive in the U.S. I can't help but wonder who is scratching whose back to make diesels in the U.S. very expensive and like they are cancer.
I don't have an answer to that, but the logical guess would be those in favor of hybrid and fully electric vehicles.
 
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Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,343   +2,223
So just to play Devil's Advocate, how do the busy bodies at the EPA know what is considered to much "pollution from the tail pipe" anyway? These non-elected bureaucrats act like they are gods and know everything, and the rest of us are just dumb cattle to be herded around. All of this nonsense has made diesel engines prohibitively expensive in the U.S. I can't help but wonder who is scratching whose back to make diesels in the U.S. very expensive and like they are cancer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Environmental_Protection_Agency#Fuel_economy

Also, I found it interesting to note that the EPA was created by an executive order from Richard Nixon... who as we all know was a stalwart supporter of the "little guy" :)
 

captaincranky

Posts: 16,065   +4,868
The trouble with "nitrogen oxides" is the fact one principal compound is "Nitrous oxide', also known as, "laughing gas". AFAIK, Diesel engines have always produced it in abundance. In fact, one time I fired up a Diesel tractor in a closed garage, and got everyone, including myself, stoned from it...:D

Diesel engines, (I think), act as sort of a cracking tower. Their fuel is a lot heavier than gasoline. So, unless you get 100% combustion, (and you never do), there are liable to be lighter, more aromatic compounds in the exhaust.

If you notice, Diesel exhaust always has an organic vapor smell to it, vague hints of everything from paint thinner to carburetor cleaner, insecticide, you name it.
 
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wiyosaya

Posts: 5,363   +3,444
So just to play Devil's Advocate, how do the busy bodies at the EPA know what is considered to much "pollution from the tail pipe" anyway? These non-elected bureaucrats act like they are gods and know everything, and the rest of us are just dumb cattle to be herded around. All of this nonsense has made diesel engines prohibitively expensive in the U.S. I can't help but wonder who is scratching whose back to make diesels in the U.S. very expensive and like they are cancer.
Care to educate yourself a bit? Care to ask the question why the US does not have smog as bad as that in China?
https://www.kcet.org/history-society/how-los-angeles-began-to-put-its-smoggy-days-behind

Care to ask can smog be deadly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog

But who the **** needs clean air anyway, right? Certainly not you, your loved ones, or your children (if you even have any).

Do any of you ever actually think before you start trashing things that improve the quality of life for every American?
 
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petert

Posts: 365   +166
So just to play Devil's Advocate, how do the busy bodies at the EPA know what is considered to much "pollution from the tail pipe" anyway? These non-elected bureaucrats act like they are gods and know everything, and the rest of us are just dumb cattle to be herded around. All of this nonsense has made diesel engines prohibitively expensive in the U.S. I can't help but wonder who is scratching whose back to make diesels in the U.S. very expensive and like they are cancer.
Care to educate yourself a bit? Care to ask the question why the US does not have smog as bad as that in China?
https://www.kcet.org/history-society/how-los-angeles-began-to-put-its-smoggy-days-behind

Care to ask can smog be deadly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog

But who the **** needs clean air anyway, right? Certainly not you, your loved ones, or your children (if you even have any).

Do any of you ever actually think before you start trashing things that improve the quality of life for every American?
What are you talking dawg? the US is in top 5 the greatest polluters right after China. Not exactly something to brag about.
 
D

davislane1

So just to play Devil's Advocate, how do the busy bodies at the EPA know what is considered to much "pollution from the tail pipe" anyway? These non-elected bureaucrats act like they are gods and know everything, and the rest of us are just dumb cattle to be herded around. All of this nonsense has made diesel engines prohibitively expensive in the U.S. I can't help but wonder who is scratching whose back to make diesels in the U.S. very expensive and like they are cancer.
Care to educate yourself a bit? Care to ask the question why the US does not have smog as bad as that in China?
https://www.kcet.org/history-society/how-los-angeles-began-to-put-its-smoggy-days-behind

Care to ask can smog be deadly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog

But who the **** needs clean air anyway, right? Certainly not you, your loved ones, or your children (if you even have any).

Do any of you ever actually think before you start trashing things that improve the quality of life for every American?
What are you talking dawg? the US is in top 5 the greatest polluters right after China. Not exactly something to brag about.
The only people who care about global pollution rankings are oblivious environmentalists and the people who get disappeared by nations who always manage to keep themselves off the leaderboards.
 

petert

Posts: 365   +166
The only people who care about global pollution rankings are oblivious environmentalists and the people who get disappeared by nations who always manage to keep themselves off the leaderboards.
No - it is a requirement if the past have taught us anything - large industries pollute heavily. I don't want to experience more pollution just because some hotshots have cut corners so that their shareholders can get a bigger pay. There is a valid ranking and system in place in which other countries which don't pollute as much can sell their share to polluters like US. US in particular is known for its past external policy of stopping and preventing stricter international regulations against heavy polluters. I was replying to that fellow who was praising US for clean air or something like that, as the irony is that not only they are heavily polluting the environment but they used to oppose to a reduction in pollution.
 

Skidmarksdeluxe

Posts: 8,645   +3,281
The trouble with "nitrogen oxides" is the fact one principal compound is "Nitrous oxide', also known as, "laughing gas". AFAIK, Diesel engines have always produced it in abundance. In fact, one time I fired up a Diesel tractor in a closed garage, and got everyone, including myself, stoned from it...:D

Diesel engines, (I think), act as sort of a cracking tower. Their fuel is a lot heavier than gasoline. So, unless you get 100% combustion, (and you never do), there are liable to be lighter, more aromatic compounds in the exhaust.

If you notice, Diesel exhaust always has an organic vapor smell to it, vague hints of everything from paint thinner to carburetor cleaner, insecticide, you name it.
And that's just the "friendly" stuff in it.
 

Skidmarksdeluxe

Posts: 8,645   +3,281
Yeah, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. They all cheat. All car manufacturers are all about sales and making money, anything else is a just 2nd thought and if one tries to do things by the book and actually tries to play by the rules... they won't find themselves in business very long. Just like the tech world, everything is cut throat.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,343   +2,223
No - it is a requirement if the past have taught us anything - large industries pollute heavily. I don't want to experience more pollution just because some hotshots have cut corners so that their shareholders can get a bigger pay. There is a valid ranking and system in place in which other countries which don't pollute as much can sell their share to polluters like US. US in particular is known for its past external policy of stopping and preventing stricter international regulations against heavy polluters. I was replying to that fellow who was praising US for clean air or something like that, as the irony is that not only they are heavily polluting the environment but they used to oppose to a reduction in pollution.
Except that the polluters - various heavy industries - simply move their factories to countries with less strict environmental laws... so instead of a polluting auto-factory in Detroit, Mexico gets the polluting factory... and Detroit gets a bunch of jobless people... everyone "wins" :)
 

mbrowne5061

Posts: 1,597   +899
So just to play Devil's Advocate, how do the busy bodies at the EPA know what is considered to much "pollution from the tail pipe" anyway? These non-elected bureaucrats act like they are gods and know everything, and the rest of us are just dumb cattle to be herded around. All of this nonsense has made diesel engines prohibitively expensive in the U.S. I can't help but wonder who is scratching whose back to make diesels in the U.S. very expensive and like they are cancer.
Ignoring any opinions on whether the EPA is enforcing the right or wrong standards at the moment:

Because the non-elected bureaucrats were appointed by elected bureaucrats, and they hired well educated scientists, who used their knowledge to lay out guidelines that fit with the stated goals of the bureaucrats who were elected to their position.

We live in a representational democracy. This means you vote on someone to represent your interests - and they do this by appointing and hiring (and firing) talent for various jobs. In a direct democracy, every position of power is elected - these are usually less efficient systems that have even hire rates of voter fatigue than we are facing now.
 

lripplinger

Posts: 284   +99
What are you talking dawg? the US is in top 5 the greatest polluters right after China. Not exactly something to brag about.
You just made my point all the more valid. The U.S is considered one of the top "polluters" in the wold. So that right there tells you what a failure the EPA is, if there job is to supposedly curb "pollution."
 

lripplinger

Posts: 284   +99
Ignoring any opinions on whether the EPA is enforcing the right or wrong standards at the moment:

Because the non-elected bureaucrats were appointed by elected bureaucrats, and they hired well educated scientists, who used their knowledge to lay out guidelines that fit with the stated goals of the bureaucrats who were elected to their position.

We live in a representational democracy. This means you vote on someone to represent your interests - and they do this by appointing and hiring (and firing) talent for various jobs. In a direct democracy, every position of power is elected - these are usually less efficient systems that have even hire rates of voter fatigue than we are facing now.
The EPA answers to no one just like every other alphabet soup agency in the U.S. gooberment. Look how the EPA tried to cover up the contaminated water crisis in Flint, Michigan. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
 

Squid Surprise

Posts: 3,343   +2,223
The EPA answers to no one just like every other alphabet soup agency in the U.S. gooberment. Look how the EPA tried to cover up the contaminated water crisis in Flint, Michigan. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Actually... they answer to the President and the rest of the federal government... which is WHY they tried to cover it up.... if you answer to no one, there is no reason to cover anything up!
 
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Makson

Posts: 115   +26
So just to play Devil's Advocate, how do the busy bodies at the EPA know what is considered to much "pollution from the tail pipe" anyway? These non-elected bureaucrats act like they are gods and know everything, and the rest of us are just dumb cattle to be herded around. All of this nonsense has made diesel engines prohibitively expensive in the U.S. I can't help but wonder who is scratching whose back to make diesels in the U.S. very expensive and like they are cancer.
Care to educate yourself a bit? Care to ask the question why the US does not have smog as bad as that in China?
https://www.kcet.org/history-society/how-los-angeles-began-to-put-its-smoggy-days-behind

Care to ask can smog be deadly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog

But who the **** needs clean air anyway, right? Certainly not you, your loved ones, or your children (if you even have any).

Do any of you ever actually think before you start trashing things that improve the quality of life for every American?
What are you talking dawg? the US is in top 5 the greatest polluters right after China. Not exactly something to brag about.
What are you talking about pusscat, from the mined minerals in the ground to the battery-operated vehicles on the road every process uses fossil-fuelled machinery to mine, transport the minerals, build the manufacturing plants, fossil-fuelled generators for electricity to produce the components, operate the robots, humans using fossil-fuelled vehicles to work in the plants, construct the buildings and the battery-charging stations, live in homes with electrical appliances, etc; etc; etc; .....and there are members of the EPA trying to kill a single mosquito on a balloon with a gun without the balloon bursting and releasing the, oh naughty, naughty CO2, (which food producing plants, flowers and trees need to survive)
Will the EPA issue an order to stop cows from farting next week.
 

commanderasus

Posts: 225   +97
The real question is this: "Why are we still using fossil fuels anyways?" Just to let you know the oil industry lobbies to make sure that the vehicles in the USA consume more than any where else on the planet, it was a deal the Bush family made because they are Pennzoil Oil. A win win for the Saudis and them. The technology has existed for years to give us no polluting cars but then the EPA would not be needed and when you get down to the real testing tha they do it means nothing in the real world. They only "simulate" the driving conditions in a controlled room. New York City traffic at 4 pm is not a controlled room environment.
 

Underdog

Posts: 157   +83
So just to play Devil's Advocate, how do the busy bodies at the EPA know what is considered to much "pollution from the tail pipe" anyway? These non-elected bureaucrats act like they are gods and know everything, and the rest of us are just dumb cattle to be herded around. All of this nonsense has made diesel engines prohibitively expensive in the U.S. I can't help but wonder who is scratching whose back to make diesels in the U.S. very expensive and like they are cancer.
Care to educate yourself a bit? Care to ask the question why the US does not have smog as bad as that in China?
https://www.kcet.org/history-society/how-los-angeles-began-to-put-its-smoggy-days-behind

Care to ask can smog be deadly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog

But who the **** needs clean air anyway, right? Certainly not you, your loved ones, or your children (if you even have any).

Do any of you ever actually think before you start trashing things that improve the quality of life for every American?
You might just have to improve the quality of your life with a much smaller, lighter form of transport that requires a much smaller engine that comsumes less of the nasty, evil fuel. Who the hell really needs a truck weighing two tons that 99% of the time travels with one occupant and carries not load apart from a spare wheel and jack?