Europe is testing air conditioners that don't use any refrigerants at all

[hwertz]

I feel there is a reason why most air-conditioners are still using gas/ refrigerant that makes it the most popular option. The reason is likely cost. Replacing it sounds like a great idea, until it hits the market and nobody buys it over conventional refrigerant based air conditioners due to high price.

Well the otther reason is, peltier junctions for instance have been around a long time, but you have to get the heat away from the hot side and the efficiency can be low. Easy to show one side getting cold in a lab under no load, harder to keep it going, and at better efficiency than pumped refrigerant, under real world conditions.

I do wish the best of luck finding a working solution! A solid state window air conditiner would be lovely (and avoid the packaging problem where the cold side is in the middle of the building and hot side is outside of trying to directly replace a central air setup.)

 

[Arkitekt78]

They really struggle with common sense over there...

 

[Vanderlinde]

I live in the south of europe, and we had that heat wave yes. It's usually extreme hot air coming from outside. And once the sun is down, the building your in is still heated till usually 03:00 AM before it starts to cool down. I have a better idea. Put a sprinkler on top of every building, and activate it once the sun goes down. I can guarantee you by cooling the building you will get a far more efficient way of keeping people inside of homes, cool compared to running another energy hog with zero efficiency because most portable aircon's have a single hose setup (dual hose is more efficient).

 

[netman]

All these ideas won't materialize for another 10 years... Meanwhile Europe could build more public swimming pool facilities for the relief of its citizens

 

[Antias]

"40 degrees Celsius in parts of Europe..."

Phht, bunch of wooses.. we get above 45c (113F) every summer for days and sometimes weeks on end!

(Australian guy here)

 

[Northy]

Absolutely mind boggling that so many don't have a clue , this has absolutely zero to do with climate it's about CONTROL .

The mainstream media will never ever allow anything to be reported that doesn't fit their narratives , things that directly conflict with media narratives are suppressed and buried . Mainstream search engines will never ever link to non mainstream media approved sources and the reason for that is because non mainstream sources are the ones who report the true facts . Intelligent people know how to find them but the majority of the population does not but I can assure you if you get your info from mainstream sources you're being intentionally deceived .

By non mainstream do you mean crackpot conspiracy theorists who are easily disproven if looking at large bodies of data rather than cherry picking out of context facts? Or a global underbelly of suppressed scientists who fear for their lives if they release legitimate data, hiding out in the shadows ever avoiding educational institutions and peer review, knowing that way leads to the gallows?

Please define who these people are we should trust to produce scientific data. Are their instruments not in cahoots with the Chinese spy networks and can we know that their only intention is to free us from doublespeak? These questions are very important and you seem to know who they are.

ps: and what airconditioners do they use?

 

[Megalomaniac]

Without refrigerants? That sounds like China is going to be undisputed king of rare earth metal sales.

 

[Eldrach]

Edit: Double post

 

[Eldrach]

I love when Americans have opinions on the «Country of Europe».
We’re experiencing a heat wave here in Norway as well - but we have well insulated houses that keeps alot of the heat away.
We also have heatpumps that can cool as well as heat rooms.
Heatpumps requires you to have ample space to install them - which is why it’s important to look at other options that could fit smaller apartments as well.
Looking at new options to provide cooling, doesn’t make «the country of Europe» a dictatorship - it’s simply innovation at work, if they can make it greener and still work well..why the uproar?

 

[Endymio]

I love when Americans have opinions on the «Country of Europe».

Yes, they're generally much better informed than Europeans' opinions on the US.

Heatpumps requires you to have ample space to install them ... - which is why it’s important to look at other options that could fit smaller apartments as well.

Only for the geothermal variety, which are common in Norway, but rare further south. A standard heat pump is easily compact enough for the smallest of apartments; retrofitting is the only issue.

Looking at new options to provide cooling, doesn’t make «the country of Europe» a dictatorship

No, it's the authoritarian policies that make air conditioning too expensive that do that. I can't remember when I last saw a home or apartment without a/c in the US, whereas four out of five Europeans are forced to do without.

 

[Eldrach]

Yes, they're generally much better informed than Europeans' opinions on the US.

Haha, good one

 

[onebignerd]

The heatwave index in the 1930s (.52), 1936 dust bowl, through the 1940s (1.34) is much higher than anything we have experienced in the U.S from the later 1900s into 2000s. In 1988 topped at .35, 1995 topped at .08, 2011 topped at .30, as of 2021 we sit at .23 (source: ourworldindata.com). Even before the second industrial revolution caused by electricity, heavy steel production and cars. Heatwaves have nothing to do with this made up "man made climate change" nonsense, it is a random natural occurrence happening even before man!!

 

[Endymio]

The heatwave index in the 1930s (.52), 1936 dust bowl, through the 1940s (1.34) is much higher than anything we have experienced in the U.S from the later 1900s into 2000s. In 1988 topped at .35, 1995 topped at .08, 2011 topped at .30, as of 2021 we sit at .23 (source: ourworldindata.com). Even before the second industrial revolution caused by electricity, heavy steel production and cars. Heatwaves have nothing to do with this made up "man made climate change" nonsense, it is a random natural occurrence happening even before man!!

To be fair, CO2 does have a climate response, but it's not only weak, but logarithmic (the more you add, the less effective each new increment becomes). This was the understanding of the scientific community until the late '70s, when Dr. James Hansen -- the so-called 'father of global warming' -- postulated a positive feedback mechanism that would vastly increase the effect.

His postulate fit the data well in the 80s and early 90s, but has failed miserably since. And now it's become rather clear that the warming trend of that period was mostly a reversion to the norm, as clean-air standards removed so much of the coal soot particulates that had been slightly cooling the northern hemisphere.

I'll also note that by far the largest problem with current climate "science" is the utter refusal to acknowledge the positive effects that a warmer climate brings. The current average temperature of the planet is about 57F, whereas man -- and most of the plants and animals we depend on -- prefer something closer to 72F. And we still live on earth where cold deaths and cold damage vastly outweighs that from heat.

 

[geeenn]

I love when Americans have opinions on the «Country of Europe».
We’re experiencing a heat wave here in Norway as well - but we have well insulated houses that keeps alot of the heat away.
We also have heatpumps that can cool as well as heat rooms.
Heatpumps requires you to have ample space to install them - which is why it’s important to look at other options that could fit smaller apartments as well.
Looking at new options to provide cooling, doesn’t make «the country of Europe» a dictatorship - it’s simply innovation at work, if they can make it greener and still work well..why the uproar?

Oh please drop the attitude and stop pretending that the EU, in theory and in practice, is not a collection of independent nations that is working under a unified governmental structure based in Brussels... very similar to how the US, in theory and in practice, is a collection of independent states working under a unified governmental structure based in Washington DC.

I think dictatorships is a perfect word for what is happening in a lot of the EU as socialists and communists impose their will on the people and restrict individual freedoms for some supposed collective purpose. Are you allowed in the EU to read about socialist/communist dictators like the mayor in Nîmes, France who removed A/C from a school where children previously were sweltering because it was "unfair" that they had A/C and other schools didn't. That is a perfect example of dictatorships, and a perfect example of socialism/communism mantra of "we'll all be miserable together"
I don't think you understand the level of freedoms in the US that allow true innovation at scale and speed, while most of the EU wallows in socialist/communist bureaucratic dictatorships.

 

[bexwhitt]

Yes the rate of Europeans getting warm in buildings is higher than American pew pee deaths, that's a cold hard (or should we say WARM!!!) fact we can all get behind

most of the deaths are in truly hot countries like Greece, not in northern Europe where it's not that hot 95% of the time

 

[cvfsn]

Haha, good one

Considering how many Europeans were surprised when they came over for the World Cup, I'd have to agree with the other poster above. That really illuminated me on how myopic and horrific the European view of the US is, and I think it doesn't help that Europeans are discouraged from visiting which perpetuates almost North Korean-esk stories. It's very unhealthy for the continent.

I feel like a lot of this solid state AC development, at least in the context of it being pushed so hard right now, is fueled by these same delusions. Refrigerant-based and refrigerant-hybrid heat pumps (and ACs) exist right now, and they'll always be more efficient than any solid state devices.

 

[Endymio]

most of the deaths are in truly hot countries like Greece, not in northern Europe where it's not that hot 95% of the time

Even in a moderately temperate nation like the US, there are some 10,000 deaths from cold weather each year, far more than from heat. And Canada, despite its far smaller population, averages some 17,000 cold-related deaths per year, some 4.5% of all deaths in the entire country:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cold-deemed-deadlier-than-heat-when-it-comes-to-weather-deaths-1.3081053

Refrigerant-based and refrigerant-hybrid heat pumps (and ACs) exist right now, and they'll always be more efficient than any solid state devices.

It certainly is true today, but I won't say "always". Refrigerant systems are bound by the Carnot theoretical limit on efficiency, whereas no such limit exists for solid state systems or meta-material based cooling.

 

[OortCloud]

It's always the same set of window lickers that defend anything that is A) by Donald Trump or B) causing environmental damage. The level of dumb from the moronosphere on this thread is extraordinary. It's a shame (but not much of one) that the demographic of the lot of them is men in the autumn of their lives and they will peg it before they reap what they sowed.

 

[OortCloud]

As an American, I can't wait to use these! Sucks that Europeans won't be able to use them, you guys will have to keep baking in those concrete coffins at a rate higher then American pew pee deaths.

What a tool.

 

[Axeia]

As an American, I can't wait to use these! Sucks that Europeans won't be able to use them, you guys will have to keep baking in those concrete coffins at a rate higher then American pew pee deaths.

Another victim of this graph uh?

Don't want to watch the video? The main arguments as to why the numbers don't make sense
* US number of heat related deaths is based on where the cause is put down explicitly as such
* The European number is calculated based on how many people die regularly vs on a hot day
* Timeframe for US numbers missed out on the hottest years
Several other minor points as well.

Not denying that the number in EU(rope) is likely higher, but far from as bad as the meme graph made it out to be. Those gun deaths however are a high score for the US that can't be argued against much.

I struggle to understand why European adoption of air conditioning has lagged other regions of the world, when air conditioning is also one of the most energy-efficient forms of heating as
well as cooling. I know air conditioners decades ago struggled to heat in sub-zero (Celsius) temperatures, but CO2-refrigerant aircon units can work efficiently down to -10C, which would cover the southern parts of Europe (Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, UK, Germany, etc), the bulk of the European population. The idea that air-conditioning is only needed for cooling is 60s/70s-era thinking.

Several reasons:
* Cost of electricity in the EU/Europe is dang expensive.
* We have little in the way of native resources
* What we do have is mostly coal which often isn't an option due to green regulations
* Because electricity is expensive heating far more commonly is done using gas rather than electricity. Don't want to use air conditioning for that.
* Buildings of historical value (or just to preserve the 'beauty' otherwise) aren't allowed to have things mounted externally
* These silly temperatures so often and for so long are a fairly recent thing, you can only spend your money once and the initial costs are pretty high. More and more people are coming around to the idea of foregoing going on holiday for a year and just getting air conditioning installed instead.

Things are slowly changing. When I go to the walk the dog every year I see a couple more air-conditioning units.

 

[Endymio]

Another victim of this graph uh?

Even when both the US and Europe compare deaths via excess mortality, Europe still is worse -- when it should be far lower. Europe is cooler and much further north than the US --southern France, for instance, is the same latitude as Boston MA.

Several reasons [why no air-conditioning]
* Cost of electricity in the EU/Europe is dang expensive.

It's expensive because of inane European policies, you mean. Take Germany for instance, which in just a few decades went from the cheapest electricity on the continent to one of the most expensive -- as well as bringing back the spectre of blackouts for the first time since WW2 ... all due to "green" policies.

* We have little in the way of native resources

There are vast deposits of coal and uranium in Europe. You simply refuse to use them.

The level of dumb from the moronosphere on this thread is extraordinary.

Physician, heal thyself!

 

[Axeia]

Dunno what's up with the reply button, but it ain't working. So manual quoting it is.

Even when both the US and Europe compare deaths via excess mortality, Europe still is worse -- when it should be far lower. Europe is cooler and much further north than the US --southern France, for instance, is the same latitude as Boston MA.

Although undeniably a massive contributor to temperature latitude isn't the end all to temperatures (ocean currents, geography etc etc), easy to underestimate how hot it gets in Europe if you just look at latitude.
Here in the Netherlands (Canadian latitude numbers), it's been hitting around 100°F far more often than I'd like in recent years.

Although I agree that the death toll caused by heat should be at least equal if not lower here (average life expectancy being higher does put Europe on the backfoot slightly). As the video put it, it would be nice to have comparable data to see how much worse it is, but even a low estimate of 2 is unacceptable.

There are vast deposits of coal and uranium in Europe. You simply refuse to use them.

imo on coal I agree with the EU, not an ideal energy source. And one I'd rather not see used.

Supposedly mining uranium isn't economically viable but I'm betting that's down to regulations once again. The French have the right idea imo going heavy on nuclear and trying to recycle the waste. The Germans seem intent on sabotaging themselves, shutting down nuclear power plants prematurely and having such a reliance on green energy that when mother nature doesn't cooperate they're running into issues.

--

Honestly, I would like to see the EU re-evaluate their stance when it comes to CO2 emissions, ease on the regulations (in all sectors) and get the energy costs under control. With charts like these - why try so hard

Russia/South Korea/Australia etc are roughly just as bad as the US. It's not like lowering the emissions in one region helps that region specifically. I'm always for cost effective solutions and trying so hard in Europe with the impact it has on the economy is just silly. I'm sure we could spend far less for far better results by helping out say India which by all means seems to be on their way to rival China in emissions.

 

[ActualViking]

"40 degrees Celsius in parts of Europe..."

Phht, bunch of wooses.. we get above 45c (113F) every summer for days and sometimes weeks on end!

(Australian guy here)

And I suppose you're houses are build for the heat?

The problem in Europe is that it is warmer than usual and this combined with housing not made for the heat is a massive problem.

However there is also some flaws in much of the information given in the international media. For starters, it is silly those media reports about Europe if it was a country and the situation is the same everywhere in that country. Europe is a big place with many countries, just the EU is 27 countries, and the climate differs a lot depending upon the country in question and even within individual countries there can be differences.
And the information in the media regarding AC's in Europe is oversimplified, for example something like 50% of housing in Spain has AC while the number in say Norway is of course much lower. It is no different than I suppose more homes in Florida has AC than homes in Alaska.

What is happening is climate change and it is just getting started.

 

[ActualViking]

<SNIP>

Russia/South Korea/Australia etc are roughly just as bad as the US. It's not like lowering the emissions in one region helps that region specifically. I'm always for cost effective solutions and trying so hard in Europe with the impact it has on the economy is just silly. I'm sure we could spend far less for far better results by helping out say India which by all means seems to be on their way to rival China in emissions.

There are huge benefits to dealing with emissions locally.

While it is correct that when talking climate change as whole, it doesn't really matter where the pollution is happening. And to some degree it may also be, that a € spend in a poor part of the world can cut more pollution that the same € spend in Europe only much is actually being done in much of the World - for example China is rapidly going green and India is not exactly ignoring the problem either. Unfortunately the US is going backwards, canceling renewable energy projects, removing pollution restrictions on cars, planing coal burning power plants...

The € being spend in Europe means cheaper power, housing that is cheaper to heat/cool and more comfy to live in, cleaner air to breathe and more - so lots of local benefits. Plus all the progress being made makes for tech that can be sold all over the World, as an example it is not by chance that Denmark was the market leader in wind turbine production and has only recently been overtaken by China.

 

[Endymio]

the information in the media regarding AC's in Europe is oversimplified, for example something like 50% of housing in Spain has AC

41% of Housing in Spain Has Air Conditioning:

https://www.idealista.com/en/news/p...e-housing-stock-in-spain-has-air-conditioning

Meanwhile, regions of the southern US like Florida literally have a 99.5% air conditioning rate.

What is happening is climate change and it is just getting started.

Over the last 50 years, the mean temperature of the planet has risen by a whopping 0.6F (0.3 celcius), with the majority of that in polar regions. The sky isn't falling, Chicken Little.

for example China is rapidly going green

Lol, what? China is currently in the process of building 100+ new coal-fired power plants, and their GHG emissions are increasing much faster than any other nation on earth, whether measured on a total or a per-capita basis.