Nvidia and AMD are planning Arm-based CPUs for consumer PCs

[midian182]

Forward-looking: An Arm revolution could be coming to the PC as soon as 2025. According to a new report, Nvidia is planning to launch CPUs based on the architecture designed specifically to run Windows, while AMD also plans to go down the same route. It's concerning news for Intel, which saw its share price fall 5% on the back of the claims.

Reuters' unnamed sources say that Nvidia, which already dominates the AI, HPC, and consumer graphics card industries, is expanding its portfolio to include Arm-based processors for client Windows PCs.

AMD is also planning to make PC processors based on Arm's designs. Team Red continues to battle it out with Intel for a share of the x86 processor market, but Chipzilla has long held a substantial lead over its rival in the Steam survey results.

The report says that Microsoft is encouraging others to enter the Arm-based systems market once the current exclusivity deal it has with Qualcomm ends next year. In 2016, Microsoft chose the company to bring the full Windows experience to Arm-powered devices.

"Microsoft learned from the 90s that they do not want to be dependent on Intel again, they do not want to be dependent on a single vendor," Jay Goldberg, chief executive of D2D Advisory, told Reuters. "If Arm really took off in PC (chips), they were never going to let Qualcomm be the sole supplier."

The prospect of Arm-based Nvidia and AMD client CPUs shook Intel's share price

Nvidia has plenty of experience with Arm-based processors. Its product stack includes the Grace-Hopper and Grace CPU Super Chips. There's also its Tegra SoC that powered tablets and phones and is still found in the Nintendo Switch and Nvidia Shield. An early version of the Tegra was also used in Microsoft's first Surface tablet, the Surface RT, but the device never gained many fans and was discontinued a year later.

AMD, meanwhile, uses Arm cores in products such as its Versal FPGAs. The company was even rumored to be working on an Arm-based Apple M1 rival back in 2020.

Earlier this month, Qualcomm gave the world a teaser of its upcoming Snapdragon X SoCs. Tracing their roots back to Qualcomm's 2021 acquisition of chip startup Nuvia for $1.4 billion, they're being positioned as the PC's version of Apple's M-series chips. Expect to learn more about Snapdragon X at the Snapdragon Summit that starts later today.

Apple sued Nuvia co-founder and CEO Gerard Williams III in 2019, accusing him of poaching its employees. Last year, both Nuvia and Qualcomm were sued by Arm, which claimed a breach of license agreements and trademark infringement following the latter's acquisition of Nuvia.

Apple dropping Intel and launching its in-house M-series SoC changed the public perception of what Arm-based laptops were capable of. Intel's mobile chips have struggled to deliver that killer combination of performance and battery life, which leaves the door open for other companies to steal Cupertino's crown, or at least challenge it, in a couple of years.

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https://www.techspot.com/news/100597-nvidia-amd-planning-arm-based-cpus-consumer-pcs.html

 

[yRaz]

I don't want ARM based PCs, it will be the end of "legacy support". You will have to upgrade nearly all your software to whatever subscription based BS they'll try to push on us. and you won't have much choice as your new hardware physically cannot run your old software. there will be compatibility layers and stuff like that but itll be at a pretty significant performance hit. I still have my Adobe CS3 license from 2008 and use it.

Im not saying ARM is bad, I'm arguing that losing 3 decades of software development in the age of "you will own nothing and be happy about it" is a bad thing.

 

[Nobina]

I don't want ARM based PCs, it will be the end of "legacy support". You will have to upgrade nearly all your software to whatever subscription based BS they'll try to push on us. and you won't have much choice as your new hardware physically cannot run your old software. there will be compatibility layers and stuff like that but itll be at a pretty significant performance hit. I still have my Adobe CS3 license from 2008 and use it.

Im not saying ARM is bad, I'm arguing that losing 3 decades of software development in the age of "you will own nothing and be happy about it" is a bad thing.

Then MS will push Windows S version with only MS Store apps allowed. Things are not looking good.

 

[Theinsanegamer]

I don't want ARM based PCs, it will be the end of "legacy support". You will have to upgrade nearly all your software to whatever subscription based BS they'll try to push on us. and you won't have much choice as your new hardware physically cannot run your old software. there will be compatibility layers and stuff like that but itll be at a pretty significant performance hit. I still have my Adobe CS3 license from 2008 and use it.

Im not saying ARM is bad, I'm arguing that losing 3 decades of software development in the age of "you will own nothing and be happy about it" is a bad thing.

Which is why linux exists. And if MS wants any sort of adoption, they'll need a rosetta 2 alternative, which would entail getting win32 apps working on ARM, which already happens but needs some serious optimization.

 

[sorten]

Good news in my opinion. Qualcomm's chips have performed very poorly compared to Apple's M-series. Maybe the Snapdragon X-series will start to turn that around, but competition is good.

I understand concerns for those who are using old software and operating systems. If you're clinging to Windows 7 and older perpetual licenses, then you'll want to hold on to that hardware. I guess Intel and AMD won't just stop making x86/AMD64 compatible CPUs. It will be many years, even if consumers decide they prefer ARM-based systems.

 

[LetTheWookieWin]

I don't want ARM based PCs, it will be the end of "legacy support". You will have to upgrade nearly all your software to whatever subscription based BS they'll try to push on us.

This.

I also am still using Photoshop CS3, as it does everything I need without a subscription.

The IBM PC was great because it was an open architecture that everyone and their brother cloned, giving consumers competitive options. These days, companies are all about walled-garden app stores and screwing the consumer with proprietary products and subscriptions that need replacing every 3-5 years.

 

[Burty117]

Microsoft is encouraging others to enter the Arm-based systems market once the current exclusivity deal it has with Qualcomm ends next year.

I don't even understand how that came about but Qualcomm has done practically nothing with it.
I can see AMD and Nvidia doing some proper work on ARM CPU's.

I don't want ARM based PCs, it will be the end of "legacy support".

Does it have to be though? AMD have already got a chiplet design, I wonder if they could pull off an "x86" cluster and "ARM" cluster.
Plus Apple have kinda shown that compatibility with x86 is possible with ARM based CPU's with half decent performance, AMD and Intel could both really push that further since they have already good x86 cores.

But to an extent you're right, if Microsoft do not support or refuse to optimise backwards compatibility with x86 apps... Then again, I think not having that compatibility is suicide for Microsoft, You would get a significant amount of people hanging onto x86 and looking at alternatives to Windows.

 

[maxxcool7421]

I don't want ARM based PCs, it will be the end of "legacy support". You will have to upgrade nearly all your software to whatever subscription based BS they'll try to push on us. and you won't have much choice as your new hardware physically cannot run your old software. there will be compatibility layers and stuff like that but itll be at a pretty significant performance hit. I still have my Adobe CS3 license from 2008 and use it.

Im not saying ARM is bad, I'm arguing that losing 3 decades of software development in the age of "you will own nothing and be happy about it" is a bad thing.

Windows 12 will be mostly subscription based ... welcome to the modern world

 

[SalmanIsHere]

Nvidia entering dekstop and laptop cpu business is not a good thing for amd and intel.
This is one of the reason most big tech wanted Arm buy out of Nvidia to be blocked.
Nvidia is too much innovative and competitive.
But, I do want a new player in cpu business.
Then we can have a all in one overeall best gpu+cpu setup.

 

[Burty117]

Windows 12 will be mostly subscription based ... welcome to the modern world

See, I don't think that will actually happen, they were pushing their luck to see what the public feeling was to pay a sub for Windows, the response was overwhelmingly no, nobody wants that. I genuinely feel like alternatives will be seriously considered vs Windows, at least, for home use. I can see businesses paying for the monthly.

 

[maxxcool7421]

See, I don't think that will actually happen, they were pushing their luck to see what the public feeling was to pay a sub for Windows, the response was overwhelmingly no, nobody wants that. I genuinely feel like alternatives will be seriously considered vs Windows, at least, for home use. I can see businesses paying for the monthly.

There is a WONDERFULL alternative.. Android on PC. And shocker (not sarcasm) what runs Android awesome? Arm ..

But poking fun aside .. There are going to be large elements of windows 12 that will be sub based

 

[waclark]

I don't want ARM based PCs, it will be the end of "legacy support". You will have to upgrade nearly all your software to whatever subscription based BS they'll try to push on us. and you won't have much choice as your new hardware physically cannot run your old software. there will be compatibility layers and stuff like that but itll be at a pretty significant performance hit. I still have my Adobe CS3 license from 2008 and use it.

Im not saying ARM is bad, I'm arguing that losing 3 decades of software development in the age of "you will own nothing and be happy about it" is a bad thing.

This really isn't any different that everything we've seen in the computer industry over the past 4 decades. When IBM came out with the PC, nothing you owned (software) would run on it. If you owned software for a Commodore 64, it would only run on that platform (outside of emulation). Apple went through this with PowerPC to Intel to M1. If you were a company with mainframes, Vax, or other mid-range computers, you likely had to update your software at some point because those computers are no longer sold (for the most part).

Hence, why there are benefits to a subscription model. When I bought my first MacBook a couple of years ago, all my O365 apps ran on it just fine, without having to buy a new version for the Mac. Along with my Windows PC, my iPad and iPhone. We looked at the cost of buying the Office suite but the individual cost for the non-subscription version was about the same as 3 years of the sub and I can use my subscription with up to 6 people. Buying non-sub versions for 6 people would have been much more expensive.

I don't worry about whether I own software as long as I can use it. If cost is an issue, there are plenty of free or cheaper alternatives to Office. Plus, depending on the software you could be using products that have security vulnerabilities and you cannot expect a company to support a product indefinitely, especially if they have no recurring revenue from that product.

 

[Stoly]

Talk about a long way in coming.

I recall the "Arm revolution could be coming to the PC" like 5+ years ago or so.

I even saw nvidia and qualcomm desktop prototypes running windows on ARM back then.

 

[yRaz]

This really isn't any different that everything we've seen in the computer industry over the past 4 decades. When IBM came out with the PC, nothing you owned (software) would run on it. If you owned software for a Commodore 64, it would only run on that platform (outside of emulation). Apple went through this with PowerPC to Intel to M1. If you were a company with mainframes, Vax, or other mid-range computers, you likely had to update your software at some point because those computers are no longer sold (for the most part).

Hence, why there are benefits to a subscription model. When I bought my first MacBook a couple of years ago, all my O365 apps ran on it just fine, without having to buy a new version for the Mac. Along with my Windows PC, my iPad and iPhone. We looked at the cost of buying the Office suite but the individual cost for the non-subscription version was about the same as 3 years of the sub and I can use my subscription with up to 6 people. Buying non-sub versions for 6 people would have been much more expensive.

I don't worry about whether I own software as long as I can use it. If cost is an issue, there are plenty of free or cheaper alternatives to Office. Plus, depending on the software you could be using products that have security vulnerabilities and you cannot expect a company to support a product indefinitely, especially if they have no recurring revenue from that product.

Apples partnership with the PowerPC chip almost ended in them going under. It took the iPod and several years of development to move to x86 and it took almost 4 years for Apple to move away from X86 to ARM.

And, yes, I can fully expect companies that sell a product to support that product. I don't know where this mind set came from, probably from children growing up with phones instead of PCs and never having complete access to device. Apple tells you what to do, Android tells you what to do and now Microsoft is telling you how to use windows.

See, in the before times a company would sell you an operating system to run on hardware(that you owned) so that they could sell you software to run on said operating system. They would then release new versions of said software that you could CHOOSE to upgrade to. It would come with new features and usually, if you already had a license, they'd give you a significant discount to upgrade to the new version. Now, with subscriptions, a single year of Adobe creative cloud costs me several times what I paid for nearly all of that in 2008 with CS3.

Now we live in a world where everything is a subscription. I don't even care that it's more expensive, I don't want to monitor 20+ subscription services everything month. I don't want to "pay yearly" and suddenly see a $600 charge from adobe on my bank statement. It's ridiculous that I need to use a spreed sheet to monitor all of my subscriptions. There are 2 types of bills that make sense to me as a month to month payment, not a subscription. housing and utilities. Netflix isn't a utility, Photoshop is not a utility. When I paid for CS3 a lifetime of security updates was sold with it so I absolutely can expect that of them because that's what they advertised and that's what I paid for.

But maybe you're happy owning nothing

 

[Burty117]

But poking fun aside .. There are going to be large elements of windows 12 that will be sub based

What bits can they sub though? As a home user, you basically use Windows to browse the web, play games and maybe do the odd bit of excel/word.

If they do silly stuff like, charge a sub for DirectX, charge for multiple screens, charge for having more than one program running at a time etc...

Well I have to break the bad news to Microsoft, that'll be too annoying for home users, people will legitimately go looking for alternatives at that point.

I cannot see my grandparents, my parents, my brothers, my close friends just forking over money to Microsoft just to play games and browse the web.

 

[Dysnomia]

Which is why linux exists. And if MS wants any sort of adoption, they'll need a rosetta 2 alternative, which would entail getting win32 apps working on ARM, which already happens but needs some serious optimization.

I wonder if there is any reason to not expect MS+ARM to get a big jump in performance with x86 virtual machines like Apple is? I know they can optimize to their own chips, and they even may have proprietary features that help with virtualization... does anyone know how much that crazy good and unexpected virtualization performance we saw with M1 is going to be an Apple Silicon phenomenon or will it apply to all modern ARM designs?

 

[sorten]

Windows 12 will be mostly subscription based ... welcome to the modern world

I've read about CorePC and AI features. Where are you getting the info about the subscription model?

 

[RaXelliX]

I don't want ARM based PCs, it will be the end of "legacy support".

Not only that it will be the end of DIY as I dont see them offering socketable ARM CPU's or upgradeable RAM. Everything will be soldered to the board. Look no further than what Apple has done and you'll see that this is a future no one asked for.