Nvidia H800 faces potential China export ban as US strengthens rules on AI chip shipments

[midian182]

In brief: The US government looks set to clamp down even harder on the export of AI-related products to China by taking steps to prevent chipmakers from circumventing current restrictions. The new rules include a ban on selling chips that fall just under the technical specification thresholds.

Citing people familiar with the matter, Reuters writes that the changes will be added to the restrictions on shipments of advanced chips and related tools to China this week.

Export rules for chips to China limit thier bidirectional transfer rate to 600 GB/s. It led to Nvidia nerfing the interconnect in the A100 from 600 GB/s to 400 GB/s so it could be sold to China as the A800. Team Green did the same thing with the H100, naming the less-powerful version the H800, and Intel followed suit by launching the new Habana Gaudi2 variant that complies with US restrictions.

The Nvidia A800 GPU

The new rules will block some AI chips that fall just under the current technical parameters while demanding companies report shipments of others. It's speculated that the interconnect speed limit could be reduced. An official stated that the US also plans to introduce a "performance density" parameter to help prevent future workarounds.

Sources previously said that Nvidia's H800 is one chip the Biden administration wants to block. There is no word on the A800, which Chinese companies like Alibaba have ordered in large quantities at a cost of billions of dollars.

The government will decide on a case-by-case basis whether chips just under the technical threshold pose a national security risk. They can be shipped unless the chipmaker is told otherwise.

An official said that consumer products like laptops would be exempt from the new rules. They are not expected to include restrictions on access to US cloud computing services, either.

The updated restrictions should also close a glaring loophole in which Chinese companies unable to buy the US chips and tools directly have simply purchased them using overseas subsidiaries.

In August, the US government introduced restrictions on the sale of high-end AI chips from Nvidia and AMD to some countries in the Middle East. The controls, covering the A100 and H100 GPUs, were put in place to stop the resale of the products to China.

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https://www.techspot.com/news/100499-nvidia-h800-faces-potential-china-export-ban-us.html

 

[Theinsanegamer]

So they're not reducing the restriction but they are trying to ban chips that fall under the restriction? Wat?

I mean, outside the wild hypocrisy of the current admin banning selling things to chyna (especially GPUs), this doesnt seem like it should be legal. The H800 doesnt break any rules, and if you are not changing the rules how can you just up and ban the H800 anyway?

EDIT: re read, they ARE introducing new rules. So no lawsuit. Still silly though, the US cant contain china anymore. That ship sailed 30 years ago. Their economy is too large and their government too powerful to be stopped by a handful of restrictions.

 

[yRaz]

So they're not reducing the restriction but they are trying to ban chips that fall under the restriction? Wat?

I mean, outside the wild hypocrisy of the current admin banning selling things to chyna (especially GPUs), this doesnt seem like it should be legal. The H800 doesnt break any rules, and if you are not changing the rules how can you just up and ban the H800 anyway?

EDIT: re read, they ARE introducing new rules. So no lawsuit. Still silly though, the US cant contain china anymore. That ship sailed 30 years ago. Their economy is too large and their government too powerful to be stopped by a handful of restrictions.

Frankly, China hmcurrently has a sub-prime loan crisis several times worse than the US 2008 financial crisis. Many citizens have stopped paying their mortgages because developers are going bankrupt without completing buildings.

China has several big issues right now and nVidia chips aren't going to save them

 

[Atmajaya2020]

Export ban..
hmm, then why wouldnt chinese create their own gpu..?
they succeded in create their own tech such as smartphone..

 

[wiyosaya]

Export ban..
hmm, then why wouldnt chinese create their own gpu..?
they succeded in create their own tech such as smartphone..

I'm sure they are trying, but unless (or should I say inevitably) they steal tech from the west, it will take them a long time to catch up.

 

[wiyosaya]

EDIT: re read, they ARE introducing new rules. So no lawsuit. Still silly though, the US cant contain china anymore. That ship sailed 30 years ago. Their economy is too large and their government too powerful to be stopped by a handful of restrictions.

IMO, these bans have an impact. Though the US let the genie out of the bottle with the Nixon administration and it has snowballed from there, things like this give incentive to bring back good jobs to the US instead of jobs at fast-food outlets.

P&M about the current administration all you like, but it has a significantly better record than the prior administration if you sit down and evaluate this administration without the typical political bias. That "tariff" that the prior administration employed did nothing but Jack Schitt and US citizens were the ones that were slapped with the tariff, not Chyna.

 

[kira setsu]

I'm sure they are trying, but unless (or should I say inevitably) they steal tech from the west, it will take them a long time to catch up.

Might not take them that long honestly, trusty ol US of A isn't making the wisest of decisions lately, I mean c'mon, trump is still a viable contender and his *** could(and probably should) be in prison. add in anyone can currently ban a book, and teachers are turning to onlyfans cause teaching sucks and kids are ***holes.

at this rate no matter how screwed up your country is the podium is pretty much wide open.

 

[yRaz]

IMO, these bans have an impact. Though the US let the genie out of the bottle with the Nixon administration and it has snowballed from there, things like this give incentive to bring back good jobs to the US instead of jobs at fast-food outlets.

P&M about the current administration all you like, but it has a significantly better record than the prior administration if you sit down and evaluate this administration without the typical political bias. That "tariff" that the prior administration employed did nothing but Jack Schitt and US citizens were the ones that were slapped with the tariff, not Chyna.

Trying ti make peace with China was a good thing. What wasn't a good thing is we saw China's lust for power as far back as the early 80s, that would have been the right time to implement tariffs. Instead, everyone was high on selling cheap Chinese goods to the western markets at record profits. We're about 40 years too late and China turned themselves into the world's factory using our money both as profits and investments. All we can hope for now is a financial collapse

 

[Theinsanegamer]

Trying ti make peace with China was a good thing. What wasn't a good thing is we saw China's lust for power as far back as the early 80s, that would have been the right time to implement tariffs. Instead, everyone was high on selling cheap Chinese goods to the western markets at record profits. We're about 40 years too late and China turned themselves into the world's factory using our money both as profits and investments. All we can hope for now is a financial collapse

Peace was a good idea. Outsourcing our economy was not.

IMO, these bans have an impact. Though the US let the genie out of the bottle with the Nixon administration and it has snowballed from there, things like this give incentive to bring back good jobs to the US instead of jobs at fast-food outlets.

P&M about the current administration all you like, but it has a significantly better record than the prior administration if you sit down and evaluate this administration without the typical political bias. That "tariff" that the prior administration employed did nothing but Jack Schitt and US citizens were the ones that were slapped with the tariff, not Chyna.

The current admin's efforts have not resulted in huge job increases for Americans either. Those GPU factories are still in china and taiwan, or more often now vietnam. Saying otherwise is politically biased.

If the previous admin was "sinophobic" and "racist" for implementing tariffs, then the current one banning them from buying products is nothing short of jim crow himself.

 

[wiyosaya]

Peace was a good idea. Outsourcing our economy was not.

I agree with you on this, however, IMO, you can blame the quest for profit for the outsourcing.

The current admin's efforts have not resulted in huge job increases for Americans either. Those GPU factories are still in china and taiwan, or more often now vietnam. Saying otherwise is politically biased.

It's not like the US, or any other country for that matter, is going to end China's dominance in cheap labor and parts over night. It has taken how many decades for China to get where they are?

If the previous admin was "sinophobic" and "racist" for implementing tariffs, then the current one banning them from buying products is nothing short of jim crow himself.

As I see it, it's not in what we call it. Calling something a name is merely semantics and really does not help. As I see it, It is in how we deal with it. At least the current admin is starting on what appears to be a positive direction by incentivizing the building of foundries in the US as well as the production of raw materials. Its not much, but its a start. IMO, it is going to take a similar effort to bring back manufacturing of board-level products, too. Having in US chip manufacturing is only the crust of the pie - the pie will need filling, too, and that will be when board-level manufacturing is also incentivized. And all this assumes that the dolts in DC or elsewhere can agree on something other than "your party's color is red, and my party's color is blue" and unless you agree with our party, you are FOS.

Trying ti make peace with China was a good thing. What wasn't a good thing is we saw China's lust for power as far back as the early 80s, that would have been the right time to implement tariffs. Instead, everyone was high on selling cheap Chinese goods to the western markets at record profits. We're about 40 years too late and China turned themselves into the world's factory using our money both as profits and investments. All we can hope for now is a financial collapse

I have to wonder whether tariffs would have been effective. US manufacturers/importers would have passed the tariffs on to the US consumer just as they did with the previous administration's tariffs. Did those tariffs really do anything? IMO, they did not. China probably laughed at the tariffs because they knew that US citizens would be paying them.

As I see it, what is needed is some sort of incentives (tax breaks, or something similar) for US manufacturers to bring jobs back to the US. I know the argument that its impossible to manufacture something in the US as cheaply as it is to have it manufactured in China, but it is exactly this attitude, IMO, that got the US where it is today. That - cheap manufacturing, IMO, is the root of the problem and why solving the problem is not easy. However, the cost, so far, has been to bolster China. As I see it, the scale has to be balanced in favor of the US so that the US is bolstered rather than China. What we've seen is that though it may be cheaper to manufacture stuff in China, the expense in other areas of modern society has been far too great.

 

[yRaz]

I have to wonder whether tariffs would have been effective. US manufacturers/importers would have passed the tariffs on to the US consumer just as they did with the previous administration's tariffs. Did those tariffs really do anything? IMO, they did not. China probably laughed at the tariffs because they knew that US citizens would be paying them.

As I see it, what is needed is some sort of incentives (tax breaks, or something similar) for US manufacturers to bring jobs back to the US. I know the argument that its impossible to manufacture something in the US as cheaply as it is to have it manufactured in China, but it is exactly this attitude, IMO, that got the US where it is today. That - cheap manufacturing, IMO, is the root of the problem and why solving the problem is not easy. However, the cost, so far, has been to bolster China. As I see it, the scale has to be balanced in favor of the US so that the US is bolstered rather than China. What we've seen is that though it may be cheaper to manufacture stuff in China, the expense in other areas of modern society has been far too great.

they don't need tax breaks when we're competing with slave labor. I work commercial construction and I see 2 types of tools on job sites. Ones that are 30+ years old that are still working and new "professional tools" that are never more than a few years old. I really only see 2 tool brands(commonly) that hold up in that environment. One is Hilti and the other is Snap-On. Something I see very often is that epoxy coatings on the coils inside the electric motors burn up.

But the main problem is that companies want to sell tools with larger profit margins at the same price. The amount of times I've seen all of the same type of tool break at the same time on a jobsite and bring it to a stand still costings tens of thousands of dollars is absurd, it's atleast once a month. The companies I work with would happily pay double for a tool to prevent down time but those tools don't really exist anymore. The engineers I work with who maintain the hydraulic equipment rarely even use power tools anymore.

It's not that the cost of labor in the US is too high, there is a very large demand for high quality American made tools. It's that the tools outsourced to places like China are so cheap it's almost impossible to compete at scale unless you're a billion dollar construction company. Hilti is my favorite brand to work with but they aren't twice the cost of Milwaukee or similar brands, they're 4-5 times the cost. That said, they do hold up for YEARS. I have a Hilti saw that is 12 years old and still running strong. The other part to that is if you're a commercial construction brand, Hilti has a service where they will drive out that day in a tool truck and replace all the tools on your jobsite. It's a commercial leasing service.

But we opened up the doors to Chinese slave labor and that will never go away. On top of that, wages haven't kept up with inflation so many people in my field can't personally own any of the tools we use.

 

[wiyosaya]

But the main problem is that companies want to sell tools with larger profit margins at the same price.

That is a problem everywhere. Its a race to the bottom while expecting every customer to pay the price of the fall. As I see it, it does equate to how much it costs to produce a product. The trouble is, if everyone is producing crap then the entirety of society pays the cost. Everyone wants to pay nothing, yet it ends up costing everyone. There are, and will be, no winners in this game of race to the bottom, and its about time everyone wakes up and realizes this.

I'll equate it to going to a pond, catching literally all of the fish, and expecting to come back at some future time and find fish there.

The amount of times I've seen all of the same type of tool break at the same time on a jobsite and bring it to a stand still costings tens of thousands of dollars is absurd, it's atleast once a month. The companies I work with would happily pay double for a tool to prevent down time but those tools don't really exist anymore. The engineers I work with who maintain the hydraulic equipment rarely even use power tools anymore.

That's my take, also. However, the mindset in business is that if it cannot be produced for nothing and sold for as much as they ask, then its not worth making a quality product. But they do not realize they are missing an opportunity to sell products to those who are willing to pay more. Its about time they wake up to the fact that being able to have a product produced in China for a far less cost is not worth it if the product is crap, and my experience is that most of the products that come from China are "Cheap Chinese Crap."

It's not that the cost of labor in the US is too high, there is a very large demand for high quality American made tools. It's that the tools outsourced to places like China are so cheap it's almost impossible to compete at scale unless you're a billion dollar construction company.

There are costs that are beyond what it costs to produce a product, and like I said, Its about time they wake up to the fact that being able to have a product produced in China for a far less cost is not worth it if the product is crap. There are costs well beyond the up-front costs of producing any product.

Hilti is my favorite brand to work with but they aren't twice the cost of Milwaukee or similar brands, they're 4-5 times the cost. That said, they do hold up for YEARS. I have a Hilti saw that is 12 years old and still running strong. The other part to that is if you're a commercial construction brand, Hilti has a service where they will drive out that day in a tool truck and replace all the tools on your jobsite. It's a commercial leasing service.

And they are not a Chinese company yet manage to keep business because of their commitment to making quality products.

But we opened up the doors to Chinese slave labor and that will never go away. On top of that, wages haven't kept up with inflation so many people in my field can't personally own any of the tools we use.

I think this points to a deeper problem with "modern society," in general, and I don't think its a problem with any one country. "Modern society" is digging its own grave in a general sense. The problem is, as I see it, that there are those that see nothing wrong. It takes the ability to see a problem before it can be solved. Until "modern society" figures out that things are not working as well as the majority thinks, nothing will change. The only problem is if that will happen before its far too late to change anything.