Over a hundred TSMC engineers have been poached by Chinese chip makers

mongeese

Posts: 412   +63
Staff member
A hot potato: According to the Nikkei Asian Review, two of China’s government-backed semiconductor manufacturers have hired over 50 TSMC engineers and executives this year. Both companies are coaxing some of the world’s best researchers with offers of exorbitant compensation packages to accelerate the growth of China’s domestic chip industry.

Quanxin Integrated Circuit Manufacturing (QXIC) was founded in 2019, while Wuhan Hongxin Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. (HSMC) was founded in 2017. Neither are producing competitive products yet, but both have received several billion dollars from the state to accelerate their development. They’re also both led by former TSMC executives.

“Hongxin [HSMC] offered some amazing packages, as high as two to 2.5 times TSMC's total annual salary and bonuses for those people,” an anonymous source told the Nikkei.

The Chinese firms’ primary strategy is to use their funds to draw in talent. They’re also opening up shop close to where talent already lies: QXIC recently established a research and development lab down the road from TSMC’s 5nm plant in Taiwan. It will, at least, be some time before either company is ready to produce 5nm products themselves. HSMC expects to launch 14nm products domestically in 2022.

An executive from within the chip industry said that “all these Asian governments, including the Taiwanese government, need to think up good ways to retain talent, since China can use its great capital market, government subsidies and lucrative packages to attract workers. You can't expect your employees to be loyal forever if you did not offer enough incentives and opportunities.”

TSMC is confident that their loss of employees won’t cause them harm and highlighted their sub-5% turnover rate. However, they did express concern that trade secrets were being shared with their new competitors.

“As a company, TSMC competes to our fullest within the law, but we do not slander our competitors and we respect the intellectual property rights of others. Similarly, we expect our suppliers and other companies to respect TSMC's intellectual property rights and will take appropriate protective actions.”

Although the business practices of these Chinese companies are certainly concerning, China’s desperation is understandable. The US has prohibited TSMC from selling to China’s largest technology company Huawei, and they won’t survive unless they can access domestically-produced chips.

Permalink to story.

 

kiwigraeme

Posts: 113   +80
Foreign policy is also about economic domination - Didn't we all feel bad when the USof A uses their clout to make things people produce or grow in developing countries sell for mere beans ( ie coffee beans - had great training from the British Empire with the likes of Tea) .
Personally myself -it fairtrade price is close I will buy it - but like YOU I have my limits.

Too expensive for Intel - wonder if grabbing samsung staff as well.

Plus imagine if there were large US companies buying all the successful internet platforms etc - that would be an abomination - if it was allowed to happen.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: trieste1s

Uncle Al

Posts: 7,478   +5,981
As it has been said many, many, many times before. China is not going to stop by just bending the rules and can never be trusted. Every bit of kindness shown by the US and other countries has been regularly used against them. It's time for the world to simply shut the door on China. Oh, they will survive but it will go a long way towards isolation. And we should never open that door again unless and until they make complete, 100% reparations for everything they have stolen. No mercy, no half way attempts, a complete solution. Their society simply does not have the way or means to live on it's own without outside trade .....
 

psycros

Posts: 3,197   +3,393
As it has been said many, many, many times before. China is not going to stop by just bending the rules and can never be trusted. Every bit of kindness shown by the US and other countries has been regularly used against them. It's time for the world to simply shut the door on China. Oh, they will survive but it will go a long way towards isolation. And we should never open that door again unless and until they make complete, 100% reparations for everything they have stolen. No mercy, no half way attempts, a complete solution. Their society simply does not have the way or means to live on it's own without outside trade .....
China is a symptom of unchecked capitalism - not just the unscrupulous, government-managed kind practiced in their own country but also the demand for endless growth that fuels Wall Street. All the decent blue-collar jobs were being sent to Japan in the late 70's and by the early 90's their economy had grown so much that the corporations were already looking at even cheaper labor throughout southeast Asia. So they used their wealth and influence to dismantle the last protections against one-way trade and total irresponsibility in finance. We've been reaping that whirlwind ever since: Black Monday, NAFTA, junk bonds - on and on. My get hope is that a lame duck Trump triples down on rolling back the damage done by every administration following Reagan.
 

candle_86

Posts: 539   +444
As it has been said many, many, many times before. China is not going to stop by just bending the rules and can never be trusted. Every bit of kindness shown by the US and other countries has been regularly used against them. It's time for the world to simply shut the door on China. Oh, they will survive but it will go a long way towards isolation. And we should never open that door again unless and until they make complete, 100% reparations for everything they have stolen. No mercy, no half way attempts, a complete solution. Their society simply does not have the way or means to live on it's own without outside trade .....
I totally agree, also Taiwan could stop this be forcefully ejecting PRC enterprises from the Island and begin blocking travel to and from mainland China. It would go a long way in stopping this non sense, and With the 7th fleet in Japan China isn't stupid enough to try to force Taiwan to do anything.
 

Lounds

Posts: 579   +452
This is like the opposite of East Vs West Germany, where West Germany kept poaching all the doctors etc and paying them double the wage during the cold war, which is why the Berlin wall was erected.
 

Endymio

Posts: 573   +447
Taiwan could stop this be forcefully ejecting PRC enterprises from the Island and begin blocking travel to and from mainland China.
Unfortunately, because of pressure from China there are no major nations that recognize Taiwan as an independent nation any longer. Taiwan at present has no choice but to deal with China on at least a limited basis.

With the 7th fleet in Japan China isn't stupid enough to try to force Taiwan to do anything.
China now has the largest navy in the world, not to mention several thousand SRBMs trained upon Taiwan. If they wanted to force the issue, the 7th Fleet alone isn't going to stop them.
 

Adi6293

Posts: 583   +690
CHINA has so much money, they can literally afford just about anybody.

Imagine a "country" so big that they can write you a check for anything you demand - far outstripping the meager offerings of smaller corporations.
All it would take is everyone stop producing in China and they wouldn't be so "rich" Chinese Government is good at 3 thigs. Stealing others technologies, copying everyone's products and suppressing minorities and their own citizens
 
  • Like
Reactions: trieste1s

Ludak021

Posts: 277   +205
All it would take is everyone stop producing in China and they wouldn't be so "rich" Chinese Government is good at 3 thigs. Stealing others technologies, copying everyone's products and suppressing minorities and their own citizens
why would they do that? It's good money. It's easy for you to say and think that because you have no dog in the race.
 

QuantumPhysics

Posts: 3,482   +3,324
All it would take is everyone stop producing in China and they wouldn't be so "rich" Chinese Government is good at 3 thigs. Stealing others technologies, copying everyone's products and suppressing minorities and their own citizens

Americans think it's so simple. I can tell you right now that Africa, South America, South East Asia... they aren't going to stop producing in China simply because "America says so". At the end of the day, most countries have lost respect for America and are getting far more out of China than they ever got out of America.

China's strength is that they do "capitalism" better than America does.
 

candle_86

Posts: 539   +444
Unfortunately, because of pressure from China there are no major nations that recognize Taiwan as an independent nation any longer. Taiwan at present has no choice but to deal with China on at least a limited basis.

China now has the largest navy in the world, not to mention several thousand SRBMs trained upon Taiwan. If they wanted to force the issue, the 7th Fleet alone isn't going to stop them.
Oh you mean the Chinese missiles they haven't tested agasint a moving target.

Any attempt by China to force the issue would instantly bring war to the region. We have a mutual defense pact with Taiwan, Japan, Australia, and South Korea are bound by treaty aswell, and if Australia goes to war except, Canada and the UK to join in aswell. The 7th fleet will quickly move into block the Chinese navy while fighters take off from Japan also to start sinking Chinese troop ships. While this is happening you can expect b52's, and b2'd to start flying to Japan where they will quickly refuel and rearm for carpet bombing the Chinese mainland. If China where to move forcefully on Taiwan the ROC would be in control of the mainland when the war is over.
 

Adi6293

Posts: 583   +690
No tgey
Americans think it's so simple. I can tell you right now that Africa, South America, South East Asia... they aren't going to stop producing in China simply because "America says so". At the end of the day, most countries have lost respect for America and are getting far more out of China than they ever got out of America.

China's strength is that they do "capitalism" better than America does.
China does capitalism better than USA? in what way? Because in America you actually have private enterprise while in China you technically don't. And BTW I'm not American and I know it's not that simple, just stop producing there but if the west wanted they could do it
 

Gypsygib

Posts: 78   +60
China operates like the country itself is a corporation and all the Chinese companies its subsidiaries, not sure how regular companies compete with that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Charles Olson

yeeeeman

Posts: 331   +278
I guess this is fair and square...
TSMC has poached a lot of Intel engineers in the 2010s...

A tad offtopic: China is where it is today thanks to us (western countries/civilized countries) being lazy and cheaping out. Don't ever forget that basically 95% of what you have is made in China and it is not made there because China is forcing manufacturers to do it, manufacturers have chosen to do it cause they wanted higher margins and lower expenses. Well, this choice has had a very bad effect, which China becoming world no 1 economic power. If US wants to stay no 1, they must stop eating burgers and move their asses to work. Otherwise, this is just fair for other countries that actually hard working to thrive...
 
Last edited:

gamerk2

Posts: 431   +302
I guess this is fair and square...
TSMC has poached a lot of Intel engineers in the 2010s...

A tad offtopic: China is where it is today thanks to us (western countries/civilized countries) being lazy and cheaping out. Don't ever forget that basically 95% of what you have is made in China and it is not made there because China is forcing manufacturers to do it, manufacturers have chosen to do it cause they wanted higher margins and lower expenses. Well, this choice has had a very bad effect, which China becoming world no 1 economic power. If US wants to stay no 1, they must stop eating burgers and move their asses to work. Otherwise, this is just fair for other countries that actually hard working to thrive...
The issue is always going to be that the US likes having a high standard of living. The fact is, labor costs are higher here then in Asia, which in turn is causing manufacturing to move there in pursuit of higher profit margins through lower manufacturing costs (wages).

What I'd do if I were in charge is this: There's really nothing you can do about Chinese companies undercutting American ones; if China wants to deal with the long-term economic consequences of having a couple Billion low-wage workers, that's their business. I'd focus strictly on American companies that choose to push manufacturing to China for goods that will be sold in America; I'd handle this case by passing a law that mandates that all American based companies must pay all their workers the equivalent of Federal minimum wage plus benefits, regardless which country those workers are employees in. If these businesses want the benefits of being American businesses, they can start paying their overseas workers like American ones.

The fact is, Trumps trade war failed miserably. Not only did his trade "deal" fail to address many long-standing points of contention (Intellectual property rights come to mind) and lack any enforcement mechanism (which would be nice to have, given China has already broken the targets they agreed to), but the trade defecit actually widened due to a decrease in farm exports to China (which has largely been filled by South American producers, who are now undercutting the US; whoops). Tariffs do not work when you don't have leverage; if you are going to fix the outsourcing problem, you're going to have to go after the businesses that do it, not the government(s) that benefit from it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Charles Olson

Endymio

Posts: 573   +447
Trump's trade war failed miserably....the trade defecit actually widened
The U.S. trade deficit with China in 2019 was $345.6 billion.1 That's 18% less than 2018's $419.5 billion deficit. An 18% drop in a single year is tremendous, especially given the total lack of bipartisan support the administration received. Had Trumps' tariffs been backed up by legislative action, the result would have been even larger.

The fact is, labor costs are higher here then in Asia, which in turn is causing manufacturing to move there
Stuff and nonsense. The wage gap between the US and China today is significantly smaller than it was in 1960. Yet in 1960, the US manufactured nearly half of all goods in the world. China manufactured essentially none.

Talk to any C-suite executive thinking about moving manufacturing out of the US. Their primary reasons are due to taxes, legal liability (the US tort system is a disaster), and stifling environmental regulations. In such surveys, wages usually come in a distant fourth.

I'd handle this case by passing a law that mandates that all American based companies must pay all their workers the equivalent of Federal minimum wage plus benefits
Lol, OK, so they pay their overseas workers $7.25 an hour-- so what? In the skilled industries we care most about losing, foreign workers often get much more than that anyway, and, as I said above, most firms are moving production not because of wage differentials anyway.

Secondly, there are a thousand ways around such laws. Don't hire employees directly, instead contract with a foreign firm that itself hires them. Or do what more than 10,000 corporations have done over the past decade, and simply stop being a US firm altogether. Incorporate overseas, then sell your products back to the US.

The real solution is today no different than its ever been. If you make an environment conducive to doing business, then business will thrive. A major corporate tax cut, coupled with removing tens of thousands of pages of stifling federal laws has already gotten many firms to reverse direction and return to the US. Tort reform should be next on the list. Look at the travesty that firms like Johnson & Johnson and Monsanto are being subjected to at present.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ludak021

Endymio

Posts: 573   +447
Oh you mean the Chinese missiles they haven't tested agasint a moving target.
Eh? China has tested their missile systems against plenty of moving targets, on land, sea, air, and space. If they can hit a satellite moving 18,000 miles per hour, I think they can hit your average aircraft carrier or DDG fairly easily.

...while this is happening you can expect b52's, and b2'd to start flying to Japan where they will quickly refuel and rearm for carpet bombing the Chinese mainland.
And without air supremacy, those bombers would be shot down long before reaching their targets. China is not Iraq or Afghanistan. Their HQ-9/HQ-22 systems are quite capable, and they now have multiple S-400 batteries, some of the most capable such hardware in the world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ludak021

candle_86

Posts: 539   +444
Eh? China has tested their missile systems against plenty of moving targets, on land, sea, air, and space. If they can hit a satellite moving 18,000 miles per hour, I think they can hit your average aircraft carrier or DDG fairly easily.

And without air supremacy, those bombers would be shot down long before reaching their targets. China is not Iraq or Afghanistan. Their HQ-9/HQ-22 systems are quite capable, and they now have multiple S-400 batteries, some of the most capable such hardware in the world.
No we'd have air superiority pretty quickly, the first thing we'd do is target anything that looks like a weapon depot or launch site with cruise missiles, also no they haven't a satellites trajectory doesn't change, hitting a moving target 600 miles away thats dodging incoming attacks is a whole nother thing.

Add to everything America would immediately impound all Chinese bound ships, and since China doesn't produce its own oil they'd be in the same situation the Japanese where in, in 1944 except they can't covert their ships to burn wood or coal because they don't use steamplants anymore, so China's assets will fuel starved, and you can bet America would setup an exclusion zone and torpedo anything into that zone, with impunity. A few bulk tankers or cargo ships sink people will stop sending ships.

As for Korea or Japan not being involved you'd be sadly mistaken, South Korea and Japan are most assuredly anti China. Japan has even considered deployment of nuclear assets from the us to counter China, while if South Korea decided to abandon their treaty, we would not intervene when North Korea invaded, right now the threat of American military might is what keeps South Koreans safe and they know it.

The only unknown is Russia, but they are in the midst of an economic collapse, and I could see them being nutral, and not aiding China and we relax sanctions on Russia for their nutrality. As their economy is largely based on access to European and American markets.
 

kiwigraeme

Posts: 113   +80
This is just an extreme of corporate welfare - Most western govts have divested their ownerships - but all major countries have strategic companies - eg here in NZ our National airline will not be allowed to go bust .
This news is expected given Huawei stuff.
Most of us are aware USA wants to not be solely reliant on others ( eg Russia/China ) for rare earth metals .
I read the missive above - all I can say it's not a zero sum game - we need all countries to do well and be stable- I think this is still on topic - because it country X does this you get a result like A above from country Y- saying that I think country Y was always going to do this ( as part of their 5? 10? 1000 year plan )
 

gamerk2

Posts: 431   +302
The U.S. trade deficit with China in 2019 was $345.6 billion.1 That's 18% less than 2018's $419.5 billion deficit. An 18% drop in a single year is tremendous, especially given the total lack of bipartisan support the administration received. Had Trumps' tariffs been backed up by legislative action, the result would have been even larger.
And still higher then it was when Obama was in office. Which showcases how much the tariffs backfired. Of course you choose to compare to 2018, during the midst of the trade war, rather then the end of Obama's term for comparison.


Stuff and nonsense. The wage gap between the US and China today is significantly smaller than it was in 1960. Yet in 1960, the US manufactured nearly half of all goods in the world. China manufactured essentially none.
Except you forget that companies moved when the wage gap was smaller.

Talk to any C-suite executive thinking about moving manufacturing out of the US. Their primary reasons are due to taxes, legal liability (the US tort system is a disaster), and stifling environmental regulations. In such surveys, wages usually come in a distant fourth.
Multi-millionaires want to keep more money; news at 11.

Lol, OK, so they pay their overseas workers $7.25 an hour-- so what? In the skilled industries we care most about losing, foreign workers often get much more than that anyway, and, as I said above, most firms are moving production not because of wage differentials anyway.
It accomplishes two things: 1, it disincentives outsourcing->re-importing (which I view as a bigger overall problem), and it increases Chinese consumer wealth making China a more attractive exporting target, shrinking said trade deficit.

Secondly, there are a thousand ways around such laws. Don't hire employees directly, instead contract with a foreign firm that itself hires them. Or do what more than 10,000 corporations have done over the past decade, and simply stop being a US firm altogether. Incorporate overseas, then sell your products back to the US.
And in turn lose the advantages (and there are many) of being a US based corporation.

The real solution is today no different than its ever been. If you make an environment conducive to doing business, then business will thrive. A major corporate tax cut, coupled with removing tens of thousands of pages of stifling federal laws has already gotten many firms to reverse direction and return to the US. Tort reform should be next on the list. Look at the travesty that firms like Johnson & Johnson and Monsanto are being subjected to at present.
Provably false conservative crock. Lets go through each point one after another:

1: Corporate tax cuts do not produce any economic growth. The reason is simple: Hiring decisions are based strictly on sales and revenue, not profit. If I'm already making more goods then I can sell, no amount of tax cuts are going to cause me to hire more workers. If you want businesses to hire more individuals, then you need more consumers who can afford their product. You want economic growth? Then maximize consumer spending, not corporate profits.

2: Those laws you deride exist to ensure a level playing field and to ensure (at least in theory) that workers are not taken advantage of. "Tort Reform" really just means "Increase profitability at the expense of everyone else".
 

trieste1s

Posts: 29   +36
TechSpot Elite
The U.S. trade deficit with China in 2019 was $345.6 billion.1 That's 18% less than 2018's $419.5 billion deficit. An 18% drop in a single year is tremendous, especially given the total lack of bipartisan support the administration received. Had Trumps' tariffs been backed up by legislative action, the result would have been even larger.

Stuff and nonsense. The wage gap between the US and China today is significantly smaller than it was in 1960. Yet in 1960, the US manufactured nearly half of all goods in the world. China manufactured essentially none.

Talk to any C-suite executive thinking about moving manufacturing out of the US. Their primary reasons are due to taxes, legal liability (the US tort system is a disaster), and stifling environmental regulations. In such surveys, wages usually come in a distant fourth.

Lol, OK, so they pay their overseas workers $7.25 an hour-- so what? In the skilled industries we care most about losing, foreign workers often get much more than that anyway, and, as I said above, most firms are moving production not because of wage differentials anyway.

Secondly, there are a thousand ways around such laws. Don't hire employees directly, instead contract with a foreign firm that itself hires them. Or do what more than 10,000 corporations have done over the past decade, and simply stop being a US firm altogether. Incorporate overseas, then sell your products back to the US.

The real solution is today no different than its ever been. If you make an environment conducive to doing business, then business will thrive. A major corporate tax cut, coupled with removing tens of thousands of pages of stifling federal laws has already gotten many firms to reverse direction and return to the US. Tort reform should be next on the list. Look at the travesty that firms like Johnson & Johnson and Monsanto are being subjected to at present.
Seriously?

You lump all the good points in your post together with "stifling environmental regulations"?

And Monsanto a victim? Yikes. Heavy revisionism there sir.


For as long as the USA has the highest per capita detrimental effect on the environment in the world, the word "stifling" will always be replaced by "very necessary". Whatever tax reform the USA needs is another story, the welfarism and bureaucracy there is simply stunning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Charles Olson

Endymio

Posts: 573   +447
Monsanto a victim? Yikes. Heavy revisionism there sir.
In regards to the current Roundup/glyphosate hysteria, then yes they are most certainly a victim. Or Bayer's shareholders are, I should say. They may very well join in a long list of companies put out of business by anti-scientific mobs aided and abetted by armies of tort attorneys.


...as long as the USA has the highest per capita detrimental effect on the environment in the world
Ahh, that old trope again. If you mean an environment conducive to humans, then that statement couldn't possibly be more wrong.